The automobile is an unintended evil

schopenhauer1

Not at all related, I just find it interesting Henry Ford was a raving antisemite that lamented the loss of the beautiful countryside prior to the mass use of the automobile... but I think an interesting introduction to the evil that is in large part due to his practices and creation- the mass use of the automobile.

Road rage is a thing. It is a very situational feeling of rage due to the perceived (and often reality of) poor driving of fellow drivers on the road.

Car crashes kill, maim, and injure millions a year whether from hitting other cars or pedestrians being hit.

Insurance, shady sales practices, shady mechanics, the replacement of parts over time. It is one of the biggest money sucks.

Pollution.

Protecting property (car thefts/breakins, etc.).

Taxes related to cars and spending on infrastructure related to cars

Regulations and bureaucracy (even if necessary) related to cars..

Close calls, crashes, damage incurred from bad weather conditions.

Traffic

Parking

Noise pollution

All the law enforcement / governmental aspects

The political and environmental politics and damage caused by extracting, warehousing, transporting, refining, and purchasing of crude oil, gasoline, and diesel.

The vast use of space used for roads, gas stations, parking lots, and other car related phenomena.

The banking financial aspect

Imagine if more money was put into mass transit. Bullet trains, underground subways. Imagine if every city had worked out a way to transport people where anyone living in a metro area was never more than five minutes away from a stop for mass transit. Imagine a world where there were so many various train routes going from city hub to city hub, there wouldn't even be a need for highways. Imagine if one's personal or commercial goods were moved from various tram-like / light rails along with cable cars that could be connected right to a drive way to a residence. Or, if we had anything interesting, we could use robotic pickups and dropoff of large materials to the locations of our choice. Imagine a world where automobiles were rare, and mainly used in rural areas that were extremely remote or for emergency purposes only.

L'éléphant

↪schopenhauer1

For sure it would have been a totally different world without the mass produced automobiles.

Imagine a world where automobiles were rare, and mainly used in rural areas that were extremely remote or for emergency purposes only. — schopenhauer1

Not rare. That isn't the word you want. I believe you mean government-approved uses.
In any case, you can't solve the problem of automobiles without first addressing the allocation of resources where no one gets insanely wealthy while others work for minimum wage.

schopenhauer1

you can't solve the problem of automobiles without first addressing the allocation of resources where no one gets insanely wealthy while others work for minimum wage. — L'éléphant

Care to elaborate?

L'éléphant

↪schopenhauer1

The production of automobiles was a result of capitalism. How to sell those cars if not enough people are wealthy enough to buy all the cars produced. Loans. Who are the people behind the production of vehicles and the invention of loans? The owners of the means of production.

schopenhauer1

The production of automobiles was a result of capitalism. How to sell those cars if not enough people are wealthy enough to buy all the cars produced. Loans. Who are the people behind the production of vehicles and the invention of loans? The owners of the means of production. — L'éléphant

Ah got it. Yes, loans for all. Cars for all. Shit for all.

L'éléphant

Ah got it. Yes, loans for all. Cars for all. Shit for all. — schopenhauer1

There were societies where loans are unheard of, let alone mortgage loans. Guess what? They built their own homes and did not buy a vehicle and used the public transportation instead. Look up Asian countries in the long ago past.

schopenhauer1

There were societies where loans are unheard of, let alone mortgage loans. Guess what? They built their own homes and did not buy a vehicle and used the public transportation instead. Look up Asian countries in the long ago past. — L'éléphant

:up: But the question is then, what are we to do now?

L'éléphant

↪schopenhauer1

It's an economic fight -- it would be hard to get rid of private vehicles in favor of public transport. But humans could get used to not having a garage and a vehicle. I know I can and I know people who would favor not having cars anymore.

schopenhauer1

It's an economic fight -- it would be hard to get rid of private vehicles in favor of public transport. But humans could get used to not having a garage and a vehicle. I know I can and I know people who would favor not having cars anymore. — L'éléphant

It's too big to fail. The whole world from small town to largest city, from oil rigs to gas stations. From car dealerships and banks to local mechanic. No way.

Mark Nyquist

↪schopenhauer1

I like this topic. I've gone back and forth with car, no car a number of times. I prefer no car by far. It's easy for a student in some cases. I remember at college orientation someone mentioned to consider not having a car for various reasons if it would work for our situation and from that I think I got in the habit of thinking about it.

You're right about autos being a waste of money.
For me it's a headache to avoid if at all possible but for most people there isn't a choice. I used to bike a couple thousand miles a year. Short trips...nothing to wear the joints out but saved a lot of car expense. Probably a little old for that now but I keep a bicycle around.

schopenhauer1

↪L'éléphant

↪Mark Nyquist

schopenhauer1

@L'éléphant @Mark Nyquist

schopenhauer1

Interesting:

https://medium.com/modern-city/how-the-united-states-ended-up-with-no-high-speed-rail-476c6209ce16

@BC might have some ideas here.

Mark Nyquist

↪schopenhauer1

Nothing like that anywhere near me.
I'm in a situation were thinking and planning and stocking supplies makes a big difference. Mostly I have my own resources and some limited public transit. And I don't commute. Working near home is huge in the whole picture. I do find ways to travel but don't like long trips over a few hours any more.

Wayfarer

I've travelled on the high-speed rail in Japan, Tokyo=>Kyoto and return, in the 90's. Very slick. Here in Australia, they've been talking about it for decades, but the problem is, Japan has very high population density in a relatively small land-mass, while Australia has very low density in a relatively large land-mass. So the numbers just don't stack up. And besides air-travel between the Aus capitals is mostly pretty inexpensive. (As it happens, I took possession of a new car just before Christmas, it might be evil, but it's the kind I like :rage: )

schopenhauer1

↪Wayfarer

And don't forget the need for all trucks related to things for construction.. Moving materials for housing, concrete, gravel, lumber, etc. The only thing I can think of is a sci-fi scenario where it was all done by some sort of small cable car rail transportation system that could go into small sites, etc.

It would take the will and fortitude that no government really has the capacity for.

There is a false sense that cars are part of the free market economy. Not so really. Government is intricately involved in the linking aspects of the automobile industry. Companies would lose trillions if phased out to anything that made a difference. Of course, it would simply shift into public transportation/rail construction, which of course can also be done by private companies.. but that would be a market that is not around yet. No one can crack the automobile/oil stranglehold, as it is part-and-parcel of the modern economy since the early 1900s. It is entrenched fully and inextricably. It would literally be a social revolution if everything was interconnected through various high speed rails with little use of the personal automobile.

jgill

My daughter lives in NYC, population density approximately 30,000/sqMile. She has no car. I live in a S. Colorado community with an overall popdensity of 670/sqMile - but in the area where I live its more like 100/sqMile. She goes everywhere in the city on public transit, but there is no profitable way to provide those services out here on the prairie. We don't come close to "extremely remote".

I'll never forget a train trip I took from London to Wales in 1985. Meadow after meadow, trees here and there, a few cattle - idyllic with no human in sight. Then, all of a sudden, a huge apartment building crammed with people, squeezed together like sardines. Walled off in the midst of nature. No cars in sight.

It's a question of cramming people together. Some like it hot.

Tom Storm

No one can crack the automobile/oil stranglehold, as it is part-and-parcel of the modern economy since the early 1900s. It is entrenched fully and inextricably. It would literally be a social revolution if everything was interconnected through various high speed rails with little use of the personal automobile. — schopenhauer1

Well said. Yep, the car and the world we have created to facilitate our dependence on it is pretty dreadful. I've long disliked cars and our addiction to them. I have often lived without one and recently got rid of another one. Now I am a public transport commuter again. PT in my city is reasonably good. It's a shame suburbs and outer regions are often designed with an assumption that everyone will need a car. I made a decision a few years ago that I would never live anywhere where I couldn't walk easily to amenities and shops.

Mikie

↪schopenhauer1

If we were rational, mass transit would be a thing in the US.

Another stat: cars/vans account for about 50% of transportation emissions. Transportation as a whole makes up about 30% of carbon emissions in the United States— the largest of any sector.

Wayfarer

↪schopenhauer1

don’t overlook the transition to electric vehicles (although I’ll own up, the car I bought is petrol.) There’s an Australian economist, Saul Griffith, who advised the Obama administration on the electrification of the economy. It’s underway in different degrees in many nations. I believe Norway has huge percentage uptake of electric vehicles. China is turning them out in enormous numbers. (Oh, and I live in satellite city area 80 km out of the City. Train travel is available, but very slow, and then when you arrive, the city itself is a vast area. I'm afraid I'm never going to be without reliance on a car, of which I own two).

Mark Nyquist

↪Wayfarer

I'm carless at the moment but do grocery shopping on a local bus service. One of the hardest things is hauling bags on a bus. I need about 4 pounds of food a day so a two week supply is about 60 pounds which I pack in my own heavy duty bags to get home. It's doable for me but really clumsy at times. Some buses restrict the amount so you may have a one or two bag limit. Going more often takes too much time.
It's a little hard but in my situation I'd rather do it than have big car expenses. And I enjoy riding and hate driving myself.

Mark Nyquist

↪Wayfarer

I think I was trying to make you feel guilty for having two cars. Not really, just people decide on their own circumstances.

schopenhauer1

Yeah, I mean, as I said I get that cars aren't going any time soon. It would take a change in how we allocate money. Who do you think contracts and pays for the building and maintaining of roads? Local, county, state, and federal governments. That's who. So if you are telling me it's "practically impossible" for your "remote" location to be catered to.. guarantee there is a paid-for-by-government road leading to your small, tranquil hamlet "remote" location. That small route can easily be re-allocated to a light rail. Simply put, all money that is supposed to go to more roads simply goes to rail.

Many cities used to have built-in cable cars / tram cars and these were torn out because "people liked the convenience of cars". Don't get me wrong, I hate being around crowds, and being in the presence of my fellow man, crammed in a railway during a rush hour is one level of hell.. But that too can be alleviated by reallocation of resources to more number of trains per route.

Wayfarer

↪Mark Nyquist

Consider me abashed :yikes:

When me and all my friends were around legal age to drive, one of them got a car he inherited from his granny (hence, the grannymobile). An ancient English ‘Wolseley’, you don’t even see them any more. Walnut dashboard. But I remember him saying, having a car was just the greatest sense of freedom, having had to rely on hitch-hiking or trains or parents.

↪schopenhauer1

Yeah, and apparently in last week’s deep freeze in Chicago, Teslas became almost impossible to keep running, apparently they react very badly to extremely low temperatures.

schopenhauer1

don’t overlook the transition to electric vehicles — Wayfarer

Well you don't have to feel too bad with your gas car purchase. This is where I must give the obligatory response to electric cars: "The cobalt and other parts bring with it other problems, along with the disposal of the electrical components".

schopenhauer1

one of them got a car he inherited from his granny (hence, the grannymobile). An ancient English ‘Wolseley’ — Wayfarer

The old English cars.. Rolls Royce being the standard. Jaguars etc.

AmadeusD

↪schopenhauer1

Aston Martin is the clear, undebatable, there is no contest, don't bother disagreeing quintessential British car.

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schopenhauer1

↪AmadeusD

Ha, there are a lot one can choose from. I'll allow it :razz:.

Wayfarer

↪AmadeusD

For the lucky few! Handmade with an output of, what, a couple of hundred in a year, probably less.

Mark Nyquist

↪Wayfarer

Before I was driving age my friend's mom would drive a bunch of us around in an old paneled station wagon we called the war wagon. Loved that car... don't remember the make and model but it was big and a nice ride. My friend got it when he got his license and it lasted a long time.
Probably off topic.

schopenhauer1

But wouldn't it be great if these cars were just showpieces and not the norm. Yes, the "freedom". Wave the flag, feel the gear shift (if one is inclined towards a standard versus an automatic).. One can keep their car enthusiasm and still be for a better transportation framework.

The automobile is an unintended evil

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