• Brendan Golledge
    82
    I am the Ubermensch, and I can prove it. Or at least, I've made a great deal of progress towards this end.

    Yes, I realize it's an annoying and egotistical claim. But it seems like a good hook to get people to at least click on the link to this post.

    The General Idea:

    First, I will define what I mean by Ubermensch. By this, I just mean that I can generate my own values in an objective way, and that I have a higher level of consciousness than most other people.

    Now I have to define what I mean by consciousness. I do not think that consciousness is very mysterious. Everything we experience of the world is a model inside our heads. We cannot directly experience the true nature of anything (even tangible things like water or rocks). We only have our experience of the thing; the sensory experiences, and our mental model for how our sensory experiences fit together. So, for instance, a model of a rock is probably anything hard and brittle which is found outside and probably has dull colors. A more complete scientific model might involve chemical composition or the mineral lattice structure. But it's still just a model. In the same way, consciousness is just a model for the self.

    So, when I claim that I have a higher level of consciousness than other people, it is not mystical mumbo-jumbo. It means that I have a more complete and functional working model for myself than most other people. I will tell you exactly how that is shortly.

    I do not claim to have achieved absolute consciousness, or mystical enlightenment, or anything like that. It is probably not possible to be 100% conscious. That would involve being simultaneously aware of all physical, emotional, and mental processes within the self. There is a good reason to think that not only is this very difficult, but it's impossible. If you are aware of yourself thinking, then that in itself is a kind of thought, and 100% consciousness would have to involve being aware of that thought too. So, you'd run into the problem of thinking about thoughts thinking about thoughts ad infinitum. So, I don't think it's possible to reach a final "end" to understanding the self, but it's possible to make a great deal more progress than most have done. It is probably always necessary that a large part of what goes on inside of a thinking machine's head is unconscious.


    Necessary Phenomenology:

    It is the nature of our experience that sensory experiences come in from the outside, outside of our control (apart from being able to close our eyes). Factual information (of the kind which is true or false) is learned only from sensory experience (such as, "I am male: True or False", can be determined by looking at my body parts).

    Logic is innate in the brain, and it judges for consistency. But logic cannot determine unique factual truth, because there are an infinite number of logically consistent systems. Logic can rule out what is impossible without sensory evidence, but it can't tell you what uniquely actually is.

    Values are the 3rd part of our experience, and they are arbitrarily asserted. They are arbitrarily asserted, because there is nothing you can point to in the material world to prove or disprove a given value proposition (see the is-ought dilemma). You can assert your values arbitrarily, but it is easy to assert values that are inconsistent with one another, or with sensory information. Because I care about truth, I take a great deal of care in asserting my values. Also, you assign your values by telling yourself that you believe in it, and then acting on it. Those values that you espouse but do not practice are only pretense.


    Psychological Model:

    Here is the psychological model I made up for conscious assignment of values.

    Values -> Emotions -> Thoughts -> Actions

    To be more specific, an emotion necessarily arises in response to a perceived event relevant to one's values.

    To give an example, if you thought somebody had stolen your money, you'd probably be mad, because anger is the feeling which responds to perceived attacks on things that you care about. There are 2 ways to consciously change an emotion: 1. change your perception of the event (in this case, that would mean realizing that you had lost the money and that nobody had stolen it) 2. change your values (convince yourself that you don't care about the money).

    I have for several years been in the habit of consciously and deliberately changing my emotional state by this method. This is a large part of what convinces me that I have a higher level of consciousness than most people. Most people do not realize that their emotions are under conscious control. But I don't just choose what I do; I chose what I want to do.

    All emotions have their own logic. Happiness is the acquisition of something good. Contentedness is the possession of the minimally necessary good things. Sadness is the loss of something good. Relief is the loss of something bad. Mourning is letting go of something that you had previously thought was important. There are many more emotions, but I won't list them all.


    Mourning and Despair:

    Mourning is of particular importance to psychological development. You cannot become different than you are now unless you are willing to mourn. You have to let the old self die.

    Despair is related. Despair is when you realize that you can't have what you want. Most people think despair is a pit. But it is only a pit if you are unwilling to mourn (let go of) that thing that you can't have. If you are willing to mourn, then despair is a tunnel. If you have mourned properly, then when you pass through despair, you cannot go back in by the same route.

    If you have never felt despair and let go of an old self, then you are not a developed person. You have the same values which you had as a baby, which are the same as your ancestors had 10 million years ago (material comfort and social status). This is how most people are.


    Pride and Delusion:

    Pride consists of lies that you tell yourself to make yourself feel good. I think it is highly connected to despair. People tell themselves lies to make themselves feel good, so that they do not have to let go of false comfort or a false self-image.

    Humility, by contrast, is just being honest with the self. It is impossible unless you are willing to feel discomfort.

    We are hardwired to seek after the good and avoid the bad, hence, pride is a temptation that we all face. I believe that in order to be psychologically capable of being humble (not attaching ourselves to false good feelings), it is necessary to be able to find goodness outside the self to replace it with. Developing a concept of God and love for that God is useful for this.


    Example of My First Use of My Technique:

    One day I realized that when I am grumpy due to hunger, it means that I care more about the feeling of discomfort in my gut than I do the people that I am being grumpy with. I wanted to think of myself as a developed and spiritual person, so this thought was humiliating. Whenever grumpiness arose again, this thought returned, and I was humiliated, and the anger subsided. After only a few days, I no longer had emotional reactions to common physical pains. I am literally able to starve myself (I once went 3 days without food or water during a fast in a monastery), stub my toe, put my hand in an icebath for an arbitrary length of time (like after 10 minutes my wife complains that I'm waiting too long at that exhibit in the museum, meanwhile a dozen other people quit the ice bath after a few seconds), etc, and have no emotional reaction. <-- If the sentences I write with parentheses are too long, try reading it while skipping over the parentheses.

    As for the ice bath, my hand was probably close to freezing. I felt the physical pain just fine, but I didn't care very much. I have actually hurt myself badly a couple times by ignoring my physical pain since I first learned how to do this. If you learn how to do it too, I'd suggest paying extra attention to your physical needs, because your spontaneous reactions won't keep you safe anymore. Like right now I'm trying to lose weight (I gained weight due to an injury that prevented exercise). I could very easily just fast until I fainted (I've done it before), but that would not be good for my health while I'm up and about. So, I am just skipping meals on my days off, since the light-headedness that causes is not dangerous when I'm alone in my room.

    I've heard people say that being "hangry" is an innate part of their personality. I do not think it is. This is because I used to think the same about myself, but now I see it was just due to immaturity. You do not need to emotionally react to physical sensations.

    I am not able to use this technique on situations that I have not experienced before. So, if I were to unexpectedly experience a severe pain that I had not previously experienced (such as a broken bone, or appendicitis), I think I would likely have some emotional reaction. But if I had time and energy to collect my thoughts, such techniques would make the pain more bearable, and I'd probably behave more appropriately to the situation than I would without such techniques.


    On Willingness to Know Truth:

    One day a number of years ago, I had the thought that if I want friends, I should talk to people who think similarly to myself. But if I want to learn, then I should talk to people that I disagree with. So, I resolved to only initiate conversations with people that I didn't already agree with (either I disagreed with them, or I didn't have a strong opinion). I assumed while listening to them that everything I believed was wrong, and everything they believed was right, and then tried to work through to see if I could make a coherent world-view out of their beliefs. I changed many of my opinions during this time, and become more solid in the beliefs that I did not change. After about 2 years, it became tiring to me to keep debunking the same stupid ideas over and over again, so I quit only talking to people I disagreed with. At the end of this period, I had formed many beliefs about how the world works which have no name. There was no one on Earth with whom I could stand in the same place and look in the same direction. I have only become more alone since that time as I have continued to develop.

    Since I am the only person I have ever heard of who has ever done anything like this, I think that is good evidence that I am among the most-interested in truth of all humans I have ever heard of. This is not hard to do, since most humans don't care about truth at all. Most people do not believe in the values they espouse ("diversity", "equality", "justice", etc), but only say those words because they think it will make them popular with other people who say the same words. It is very tiring to converse with these people (most people) when I am trying to say words that have actual meaning.


    Other Psychological Games You Can Play:

    Identifying One's Emotional State:

    Values -> Emotions -> Thoughts -> Actions

    Before trying other games, I'd highly recommend playing this game for a while. Use the above-mentioned psychological model to become self-aware. I will not be offended if you use other techniques (such as meditation, or dream interpretation) in addition to, or instead of this technique.

    It seems true that being angry without knowing that you are angry is a very low state of consciousness. Knowing that you are angry is a little higher, knowing why you are angry is higher than that, and being able to consciously choose to only be angry at the appropriate time is higher than that. None of the other techniques here will be possible if you aren't aware of what's actually going on first. If you have not yet gotten to the point where you know what you are feeling and why, then you need to figure that out first.

    Most things we do are habits, so it's usually best to focus on just learning one new skill at a time (such as by playing one of these games). When one new habit has become firm, you can try another.

    Do What your Conscience Says:

    I am not the first to think of this, but it's a very good game to play.

    Identifying Offense:

    The feeling of offense comes from hatred of facts. If you love truth, then it is always wrong. So, I have been in the habit for a long time of always noticing when I'm offended and then trying to find fault in myself. It's been a while since I've been offended much anymore, however.

    It is possible to be offended by an idea by itself, or by a set of circumstances. For example, most people do not find flat-Earthism offensive, because they find it ridiculous. But if they were to learn that their kids were being taught flat-Earthism in school, then they might be offended by that circumstance. So, it may be useful when looking for offense to be able to distinguish between hatred of facts in-and-of themselves (such as things that put you in a bad light, or which are just uncomfortable), and hatred for your actual life circumstances, although you may be able to accept the reality of those circumstances.

    I know many things of both a political and a scientific nature which would cause offense. I will not tell them to you, because then many people would hate me, and this message would be less likely to be received. If you want to find out what they are, then go look at what offends you.

    Worry:

    Worry comes from being overly concerned with things that are outside of your control. If they were in your control, then you would just fix those circumstances, and not worry. So this sense of "worry" is always futile.

    Glad Game:

    I learned the glad game from the book, "Pollyanna". Pollyanna teaches you a great secret of the universe: that values can be arbitrarily asserted, and that you are free to do this. It is literally an inalienable right to be able to assert your own values, so long as you are alive. Your life, liberty, and property can be taken from you, but your capacity to judge the world as you wish (so long as you still live) cannot be taken from you.

    Pride Filter:

    It occurred to me one day that the only thing I have the experience of truly being able to control is my effort. The results of my actions may turn out differently than I intended, due to circumstances outside of my control. But I can always control what I am trying to do. Therefore, I reasoned that congratulating myself for things outside of my control was dishonest. I concluded that there were only 2 valid reasons to be happy:

    Self-congratulation for good effort
    Gratitude for things outside of my control

    So, like if I do a good job at work, or make my wife happy, then I congratulate myself for my good effort (if I feel good about doing good, then it makes me want to do it again), and feel grateful about the circumstances (such as my genes, the remnants of rule of law, other people giving me a chance, etc) that made it possible for the good outcome to occur. I reject all other good feelings (such as pride in my intelligence, or that my parents' money makes the mistakes I have made in life less costly to me).

    I found this technique to be amongst the most brutal that I have invented. For one, it's cognitively draining to judge all my thoughts like this. Secondly, it is emotionally draining to deny one's self so many pleasures. Due to its draining nature, I invented a more pleasurable one (the following).

    Give Glory to God:

    This is the game I have been playing for a while now. Instead of trying to see good in myself, I try to see good in the world around me that would be there whether I was here to see it or not. Partly this includes judging other people the same as myself (feeling good for what other people have done the same as I would if I had done it myself), partly it includes trying to see beauty in natural and abstract things just the way they are (like cosmology, or the theory of evolution). It is still kind of hard (partially because of my natural selfishness), but easier than the pride filter. I agree with Paul that focusing on doing what is good is better than focusing on not doing what is bad. It gets easier and more pleasurable with time.

    It is as a result of this particular game that I had the thoughts which I included in my earlier post on God, which basically nobody understood.
  • Lionino
    1.5k
    To give an example, if you thought somebody had stolen your money, you'd probably be mad, because anger is the feeling which responds to perceived attacks on things that you care about. There are 2 ways to consciously change an emotion: 1. change your perception of the event (in this case, that would mean realizing that you had lost the money and that nobody had stolen it) 2. change your values (convince yourself that you don't care about the money).Brendan Golledge

    I don't want to do either.

    it means that I care more about the feeling of discomfort in my gut than I do the people that I am being grumpy withBrendan Golledge

    Does it? How do you prove that the lack of nutrients is not something that involuntarily changes your mood by affecting your brain chemistry?

    Overall your post seems to be about controlling one's emotions (self-help). From my understanding of Nietzsche, that is not central to the ubermensch, contrary to it even.
    I understand that "First, I will define what I mean by Ubermensch. By this, I just mean that I can generate my own values in an objective way, and that I have a higher level of consciousness than most other people."
    You might have demonstrated how you have a higher level of consciousness than others, but what about generating your values in an objective way? You talk about changing values, but for what goal are you changing values? It does not seem to be because you think this value is right, but because it is productive to you (letting your hand freeze while taking an ice bath). Since productive implies the notion of producing something, you are just pushing the issue further. What you are aiming at when you change your values is what your values actually are.
  • Tom Storm
    8.4k
    Congratulations on getting there. But I have to say that there doesn't seem to be much benefit in being an Ubermensch if your account is definitive. Can you explain what the benefits might be?
  • Lionino
    1.5k
    He explains here: "One day I realized that when I am grumpy due to hunger, it means that I care more about the feeling of discomfort in my gut than I do the people that I am being grumpy with. I wanted to think of myself as a developed and spiritual person, so this thought was humiliating. Whenever grumpiness arose again, this thought returned, and I was humiliated, and the anger subsided. After only a few days, I no longer had emotional reactions to common physical pains."
  • baker
    5.6k
    I am the UbermenschBrendan Golledge
    Being able to type an Ü is, of course, an uberpower.
  • Vera Mont
    3.3k
    But the stamina to type so many words must count for something.
  • Brendan Golledge
    82
    I realized after I posted this that I felt uneasy. I thought a bit and decided that it was probably because I positively asserted that I was the Ubermensch, so if somebody wanted to argue with me, that would be a threat to my asserted identity. I think it is psychologically healthier for me to tell myself, "I will do my best, and I don't care if that involves being the ubermensch or not." I did originally mean the title to be a marketing ploy. I don't think it's being dishonest, really, it's just not usually psychologically healthy to boast like this.

    Anyway, I'll reply to the comments now.

    I googled for "What is the ubermensch?" and got the first hit as, "the ideal superior man of the future who could rise above conventional Christian morality to create and impose his own values, originally described by Nietzsche in Thus Spake Zarathustra"

    I seem perfectly able to create my own values in a way that I don't see other people do, so that part fits. "Ideal superior man" would be subjective, so I don't know how to argue that. I still have faults, so, I think I ought not to try to argue it. It also says to "impose" one's own values, which I think in principle is impossible, because each individual person selects his own values (although often unconsciously). All the armies in the world cannot change the opinion of a stubborn man if he doesn't want to change his mind.


    Does it? How do you prove that the lack of nutrients is not something that involuntarily changes your mood by affecting your brain chemistry?Lionino

    The feeling of hunger is a bodily sensation. You can't stop it consciously. Emotions, however, require thought, and you have some control over your thoughts. You can see this by considering feelings such as "anger" or "betrayal". To be angry, you have to recognize that somebody is attacking something you care about. To feel betrayed, you have to realize that someone you trusted is trying to hurt you. These are abstract concepts and therefore cannot be understood through only sensory experience. You have to have a mental model of the world in order to be able to feel these emotions. If you change your mental model, your emotions will change too.


    You might have demonstrated how you have a higher level of consciousness than others, but what about generating your values in an objective way? You talk about changing values, but for what goal are you changing values?Lionino

    I described here my system for changing my values, but did not describe a complete moral system. I can do that, but it would require a second post. I might do it a little bit later.

    BTW, I never had the goal in my life of being able to freeze my hand for a long time. I just felt humiliated about being grumpy with people, and realized quite by accident later that I was then able to endure all manner of common physical pains. I kept my hand for a long time in the ice bath just to see if I could. It is brought up here just as an example of how it is possible to have a great deal of control over one's self.


    ↪Brendan Golledge Congratulations on getting there. But I have to say that there doesn't seem to be much benefit in being an Ubermensch if your account is definitive. Can you explain what the benefits might be?Tom Storm

    I don't actually know that my account is definitive. I just believe it's a lot more than what most people have done, and I am lonely and disappointed that I have no one to share it with. You are right that there are no immediate material benefits from this. Humans are social creatures and do all of their great accomplishments in groups. If I can't convince other people of what I'm interested in, then I still have only my own 2 hands to work with, no matter what vision I have in my head. If you were intrinsically motivated by trying to be honest or have a peaceful heart, then inner work like this would be its own reward. I suppose the primary material benefit I receive is that I don't participate in popular stuff which is stupid. I don't need to convince anyone else to disengage myself from bad things, even if those bad things are very popular.

    Being able to type an Ü is, of course, an uberpower.baker

    Ich spreche eigentlich ein bisschen auf deutsch. Es war mir einfach nicht wichtig, die umlaud zu schreiben, wenn ich wusste, dass jeder mir verstanden wuerde.
  • Brendan Golledge
    82
    I will describe in brief my moral system.

    I believe in principle that all values are asserted arbitrarily. I could assert that it is good to wear pink tutus while eating breakfast cereals, and nobody could prove that I was wrong. You could say, "but wearing pink tutus doesn't accomplish anything," and I would answer, "it doesn't need to accomplish anything; it is intrinsically good," and then what would you say?

    It is only in so far as our values affect the material world that we are able to make objective claims about them.

    I did notice one observation that seems to be a partial exception to the is-ought fallacy. It is this: that only living creatures appear to experience "good" and "bad". So, if we want our values to have an effect upon the material world, we must constrain our values to the behavior of living creatures. This, I think does not technically violate the is-ought dichotomy, because we haven't proven that we want our values to have an effect on the material world. But if you do want your values to have an effect, then it seems to immediately follow that they can only apply to living beings.

    The second relevant observation is a game theory/evolutionary observation. It is that those values which are good at reproducing themselves will tend to become more prevalent, and those that are not, will become less common. So, we can fairly say that values such as self-preservation, self-honesty, interest in having children, ect, will have a longer duration than the contrary values. But again, this doesn't prove that we care about our values being propagated into the future, only that if you do care about that, then you need to choose values according to that preference.

    So, I could argue that a good morality would be enlightened self-interest:
    I am a body -- so I take care of my health
    I am a mind -- so I try to honestly understand how things work
    I have a "heart" -- so I try to see (or assert) the good
    I am a member of a social body -- so I try to do good to my social unit
    I am a product of evolution -- so I try to participate in the evolutionary process

    So, I could say that I believe that something like the above are God's morals, because they are the morals that WILL be propagated. But it's impossible to prove to anyone who doesn't care about this kind of thing that these morals are good.


    I think deism is likely true, due to first-mover arguments. But unlike Christians, I am not convinced that God has ever made a covenant with us. Right now I think that if God were truly omnipotent and omniscient, then he made the universe exactly how he likes it, and that the universe does not need further tinkering. And since God made the universe exactly how he likes it, he probably thinks that it is very good. So, I believe that existence is good for its own sake, and that whatever we think of as "bad" is just the loss of whatever we previously had thought of as "good" (such as how murder is bad because it takes away the life of a man). And as living beings who care about our own survival, our immediate sense of good and bad is necessarily different than God's. It is pleasing to God for me to live, but some day it will be equally pleasing to him for me to die. I would prefer to go on living, but this is necessary so that I can participate in the evolutionary process. But apparently to God (unless there is an afterlife), my usefulness to him is fully contained within my natural life.

    I believe that God is an infinity of abstract potential, and that he created the material world in order to tangibly instantiate himself. From this idea, you might predict a big and old universe, or possibly multiverses, because God is infinite. You might also predict that the universe spontaneously produces an astonishing variety of forms (such as via evolution), since God is self-contained and does not depend on anything else. So, I believe that everything that positively exists is pleasing to God, and I try to see it. In being alive, I am a fairly unique part of existence, in that I participate in my own continued existence.

    If many people could be convinced of these moral frameworks, then they could build a community around that. But if it's just me, then it's just words on the internet. But whether or not I succeed in convincing anyone of anything, I believe that those values which are good at further propagating life will tend to become more numerous, and that those with contrary values will tend to die out.
  • Vera Mont
    3.3k
    I will describe in brief my moral system.Brendan Golledge

    to whom?
  • Tom Storm
    8.4k
    I think deism is likely true, due to first-mover arguments.Brendan Golledge

    Deism seems to be a fairly pointless belief. If a god or gods made the world and fucked off and don't care about us, what is the point? Is all we know about some kind of gods is an inference derived from the hoary old argument from contingency, then we really have nothing to go on and no real reason to care. We also have no way of knowing what this deserter god thinks about morality.

    Even if there were a creator being, you also have no way of knowing what this being's relationship to morality is. Is this being the foundation of morality, or does this being reside separately to morality? We simply can't say.

    If many people could be convinced of these moral frameworks, then they could build a community around that.Brendan Golledge

    We can build a moral system and community around any number of moral systems. The issue is finding agreement. But morality seems to arise out of a historical process and is a changing conversation over time, I doubt it can be imposed over us all based on some fresh reasoning.

    So, I believe that everything that positively exists is pleasing to God, and I try to see it.Brendan Golledge

    You seem to know an awful lot about an anonymous deistic god who fucked off and has no contact with people. Where does this come from? How did you rule out that this creator isn't evil (in human terms) a monstrous being who made a world that seems to produce suffering and hatred?
  • wonderer1
    1.7k
    I just believe it's a lot more than what most people have done, and I am lonely and disappointed that I have no one to share it with. You are right that there are no immediate material benefits from this. Humans are social creatures and do all of their great accomplishments in groups. If I can't convince other people of what I'm interested in, then I still have only my own 2 hands to work with, no matter what vision I have in my head.Brendan Golledge

    My view is that we are all social primates who are born ignorant and are all going to die only somewhat less ignorant, and finding opportunities to simply be a mensch among mensches is more than enough.

    That said, it seems to me that some ability to lead others to recognize wisdom is a rather important mensch skill. The notion of being an ubermensch seems counterproductive to such a goal from my perspective, because for me, understanding of our mere humanness plays a hugely important role in recognizing what influences others.

    I can brag too. On the forum I was hanging out at before coming to TPF, there was a sort of multithreaded and multimedia event which lead to myself and other atheists being seen as Christ-like (by a religiously skeptical but also very much hopeful universalist retired biology professor) and a Presbyterian minister referring to me with the line, "Zen Mind is embracing the traffic, and finding a way to groove with it in your own way in order to both be a part of it and transcend it." Most important to me, is that these events brought home to a rather fundamentalist Christian that I as an atheist recognized him as a loving brother.

    So what is it that you want to share, and what is it that you are ignorant of, that keeps you from being able to share it?

    For my part, you can check out my forum mix tape.
  • Brendan Golledge
    82
    You seem to know an awful lot about an anonymous deistic god who fucked off and has no contact with people. Where does this come from? How did you rule out that this creator isn't evil (in human terms) a monstrous being who made a world that seems to produce suffering and hatred?Tom Storm

    I answered this in my original post:

    Right now I think that if God were truly omnipotent and omniscient, then he made the universe exactly how he likes it, and that the universe does not need further tinkering.Brendan Golledge
    --> My views on God come from looking at nature first, and inferring God from that. It seems reasonable that if there were a being who was perfectly knowledgeable and powerful, he would get it right the first time.

    And as living beings who care about our own survival, our immediate sense of good and bad is necessarily different than God's.Brendan Golledge
    --> yes, it's possible that things that seem good to God do not seem good to us.

    I see God as a placeholder for "nature", or whatever else you want to call it. Given that nature seems to follow mathematical laws, there really is no difference between a creator God in this sense and the laws of nature. I wrote a whole other post on this.


    Even if there were a creator being, you also have no way of knowing what this being's relationship to morality is. Is this being the foundation of morality, or does this being reside separately to morality? We simply can't say.Tom Storm

    I mentioned repeatedly in the above post that values can be asserted arbitrarily, but that nature seems to be set up in a certain way to make certain values more prevalent than others. This is what I mean by "God's Morality."

    I notice that you didn't mention anything in my post at all until I got to God. I wonder if you are just caught up on the word "God" instead of the actual content of what I'm saying.
  • Tom Storm
    8.4k
    I notice that you didn't mention anything in my post at all until I got to God. I wonder if you are just caught up on the word "God" instead of the actual content of what I'm saying.Brendan Golledge

    Fair comment.

    God seems foundational to your OP and it stuck me as the most interesting part of what you said.

    I answered this in my original post:

    Right now I think that if God were truly omnipotent and omniscient, then he made the universe exactly how he likes it, and that the universe does not need further tinkering.
    Brendan Golledge

    This doesn't resemble an answer to me, it is a claim heaped upon other claims. I was trying to unpack why you might have arrived here. It's so Christian, which is unexpected and obedient to convention. A surprise, given this is discussion about an ubermensch - someone who transcends such foundational games.
  • Brendan Golledge
    82
    I think the main point of the Ubermensch is to be able to generate one's own values. I have shared a technique for consciously modifying one's own values/emotions, and given examples of how I applied it to myself. I was thinking replies would be something like, "I don't think you have fully demonstrated that you can generate your own values", or "That's cool. I'm going to try it on myself."

    I was actually inspired to make this post because I saw another post where someone said that Nietzsche is the only important western philosopher, because he addresses the question of how to generate values when we don't have faith in our old religious traditions. It seemed like a reasonable argument to me. I wrote this post because I believe I have solved the problem. I was hoping that because philosophers are nominally interested in value-generation (since Nietzsche is famous for addressing this issue), if I claimed to solve it, it would garner attention. But most of the replies don't seem to deal directly with this point. I didn't see anyone argue yet that my technique was flawed or insufficient. Nor do I see people talking about how they are going to try it (I suppose they may be doing it quietly).

    These techniques are actually inspired by ancient Christian monks. I just made them more explicit and stripped them of their religious nature.
  • Brendan Golledge
    82


    I did leave many things unexplained in this post about God. I wrote another post about it, which is rather long, and which was poorly understood, called, "God, as Experienced, and as Metaphysical Speculation"

    It is true that much of what I think about God is speculative. I think this is unavoidable. So far as I'm aware, there's no way to receive direct revelation from God, but we still have to think about ultimate purpose and meaning in order to make sense of life. The "metaphysical speculation" aspect of the essay is basically founded on the observation that it appears that nature follows abstract mathematical rules. This fits nicely with the claim in Genesis that God created the world through words (math is itself a language). It also intuitively gives the idea that somehow math & logic are closer to God than mere matter, since matter depends on logic, but logic can exist in the abstract without matter.

    About the first-mover argument: it seems necessarily true that there exists something which has no cause (which we may as well call God) which got it all started, or that there is an infinite regression of causes with no beginning, or that causality is circular. Only the first option seems to involve an ultimate beginning, and that necessitates the existence of something very special (in that it is the only thing that acts without first being acted upon). So, I don't see how there can be such a thing as an ultimate beginning without a concept like God.

    A creator God, as-such, seems to innately require omnipotence (there are also other arguments for this too), so I don't how claiming that God is omnipotent is an arbitrary claim. Assuming that he is omnipotent, then it naturally follows that he can do whatever he likes, and if he can do whatever he likes, then the material world must be a reflection of his will. So, looking at nature ought to be a good way of inferring the nature of God.

    As for why I reference Christian elements: Christianity is the religion most concerned with the heart. Jesus' commandments are to love God and love one's neighbor. So, it is not surprising to me that their teachings can be instructive to people seeking to understand their own heart better, even if those people do not explicitly believe in Christian supernatural claims. One of my ways of thinking which seems most difficult for other people is that I see religious teachings as a kind of psychology, mixed in with bad science and history. I see great wisdom in many of the teachings, although I doubt that these teachings were inspired by God. I think they were created by people who had the same minds and hearts that we do, who were very concerned with righteous living, but whose thoughts were confused by their scientific ignorance. So, I share with the Christians their concern for proper orientation of the heart, and share with secular people a great respect for science. I do not share with Christians faith that any particular text or teaching was directly inspired by God. But it is frustrating to me that most secular people do not take morals as seriously as Christians do.
  • Tom Storm
    8.4k
    But it is frustrating to me that most secular people do not take morals as seriously as Christians do.Brendan Golledge

    I would say secular thinkers are often way more obsessed with morality than Christians. Partly because Christians often think morality is simply doing god's will, so no deliberations required. Whereas secular people often focus on justifications of morality outside of any magic man (god). Hence the multitude of secular moral systems philosophy has spawned and keeps generating.

    Here's one problem as I see it. Religious people actually have no grounding for morality. All they express is personal preferences. Subjective interpretations of god's will. Which explains why on any given moral matter, Christians (since you raised them) are utterly inconsistent and divergent. If what god wanted was truly clear then there would be no debate about euthanasia, stem cell research, abortion, capital punishment, gay rights, trans rights, the role of women, war, etc, etc. Religious folk make personal subjective choices on what they think their version of god would want us to do.

    You express statements which are just claims - to be an ubermensch I think you may need to do some purging of such romantic claims as:

    Christianity is the religion most concerned with the heart.Brendan Golledge

    A creator God, as-such, seems to innately require omnipotence (there are also other arguments for this too), so I don't how claiming that God is omnipotent is an arbitrary claim.Brendan Golledge

    I don't think it's arbitrary, I said it was just a claim. If there are gods (how do we know there is just one), how do we know they or it are/is omnipotent? We can't just accept the claims of classical theism at face value. Would an ubermensch take cues from traditional theology?

    So, looking at nature ought to be a good way of inferring the nature of God.Brendan Golledge

    That's just a claim. But if I did this I would infer from nature that the god who made it is an evil and cruel monster. Imagine creating an entire ecosystem where the suffering and death of most animals and insects is built into the model. Animals eat each other alive in order to live. An omnipotent god could have created any kind of self-sustaining realm it wanted, so why settle on one where predation, suffering and eating the living flesh of other blameless creatures is a prevailing reality?

    So, I share with the Christians their concern for proper orientation of the heart, and share with secular people a great respect for science.Brendan Golledge

    Which Christians do this exactly and how do you demonstrate this? I am secular. I think of science as a reliable tool that furnishes tentative answers which are often subject to revision. It does not make proclamations about truth.

    How exactly does one go about finding the 'proper orientation of the heart?' This romantic notion is pretty opaque to begin with. What does it actually mean? 'Proper' and 'heart' in this sentence can be defined in a multitude of potentially contradictory ways.

    I think the main point of the Ubermensch is to be able to generate one's own valuesBrendan Golledge

    And I would have thought jettisoning all the ghosts of magic men, goblins, spirits and the supernatural is where that might start. You're not generating your own values if you consciously start with tradition.

    I do not share with Christians faith that any particular text or teaching was directly inspired by God.Brendan Golledge

    Fair enough.
  • Brendan Golledge
    82
    I read Nietzsche when I was a teenager, which was admittedly over 10 years ago. It's not clear to me what you're trying to say in the rest of your post.
  • Brendan Golledge
    82
    You express statements which are just claims - to be an ubermensch I think you may need to do some purging of such romantic claims as:

    Christianity is the religion most concerned with the heart.
    — Brendan Golledge
    Tom Storm

    I don't see how this is a romantic claim. It is factual. Jesus' top two commandments are how to love. In other teachings, he addresses issues of judgment, offense, hypocrisy, worry, honoring one's parents, etc. The 7 deadly sins (which I know were later made up by Catholics) address feelings rather than actions: "wrath", "sloth", "envy", etc. It is an objective statement that most of the teachings in Christianity concern the inward orientation of the heart. This is in contrast to Islam, where the 5 pillars are external tangible things, such as fasting, giving to the poor, pilgrimage, ritualized prayer, and the declaration of faith (this last one here is shared by Christianity). It is also in contrast even to the ten commandments in the Old Testament, which are concerned with outward actions such as not stealing and not murdering.

    There are many insincere Christians. But most of the people who appreciate the kind of inner work I've done are Christian. It is mostly Christians who are concerned with "Do I envy?" "Am I lusting after my neighbor's wife?" for their own sake, rather than as a part of an external moral system.

    So, I stand by my statement that when it comes to asserting values on one's own, Christianity is the religion that seems closest to this.


    I actually agree that different Christian denominations have inconsistent views. This is part of the reason I'm not a Christian. I think a large part of the problem is that most of them are claiming to have infallible knowledge which they don't really have. The Orthodox have their church councils, the Catholics have the Pope, and many protestants claim inspiration from the Holy Spirit. I think what is likely happening is that protestants listen to their own conscience and believe that is the voice of the Holy Spirit. I think the conscience is a good voice, but that it is a private subjective voice. This is how it's possible that they can all be convinced that their right, while saying different things.


    So, looking at nature ought to be a good way of inferring the nature of God.
    — Brendan Golledge

    That's just a claim. But if I did this I would infer from nature that the god who made it is an evil and cruel monster. Imagine creating an entire ecosystem where the suffering and death of most animals and insects is built into the model.
    Tom Storm

    I am aware that evolution works by killing off the majority of life that is not most highly adapted. It makes sense that the organisms in this process do not like dying, or else they would probably not live very long. But I don't see a necessity that God has to care about this. Based on how the world works, I would conclude that God finds the evolutionary process to be more beautiful than any individual organism. There is a quote from the Bible which I think is appropriate here, "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" We are the clay in this passage. We might not like it, but we have no power to argue with God about it.

    It doesn't even really matter to me very much if you agree on my views on God. They are speculation that I find interesting and meaningful, but they are in the end, speculation.

    I would argue though, that my speculation is not as arbitrary as you think. I think you have to choose one of these 3 options:
    1. There is an ultimate beginning
    2. Existence is infinitely old with no beginning
    3. The causality of existence is circular (like maybe somebody will go back in a time machine to create the big bang)

    None of these options are compatible with deductive logic. This is because standard logic involves the use of unproved premises. If you try to prove the premise with logic, then you have to posit another unproved premise. So, ultimate beginnings are outside the scope of human reason. The fact that anything exists at all is proof that something exists which we can't understand. It might very well be God.

    Option 1 seems to necessarily imply something like God. Everything we have experience with is caused by something else. If there were something to get it all started, that thing would be very special. I won't lay out all the arguments here, but if you guess that maybe option 1 is true, then everything else I have said concerning God is very reasonable.


    I think Nietzsche's child (from the parable of the camel, lion, and child) might not be very different than Jesus' idea of how a person has to be a child to enter the kingdom of heaven. The lion attacks what is old (like Christianity), but the child does whatever he feels like (which may sometimes involve Christian teachings).

    I have personal experience of using many of the psychological elements of Jesus' teachings. So far as these teachings go, it makes no difference to me whether Jesus really was the son of God, because I can independently verify what he said.

    Many of the moral teachings of Christians are logical necessities if you believe in moral consistency. If you believe in moral consistency, then how can it make sense to judge your own value differently than the value of other things that are similar to you (like other people?) For instance, if you'd judge someone for stealing, but you yourself steal, isn't that an inherent contradiction in your moral philosophy? Therefore, it makes sense that a person must love other people the same way that he loves himself, or else his moral philosophy is inherently self-contradictory.

    One of the psychological roles of God is to serve as a personification and projection of one's highest values. So when Jesus says to love God with all your heart, he may very well have meant something similar to, "Love that which you are able to understand is highest with all your heart." This seems to be a moral necessity if you want to be the most moral person that you can be. I think modern people get confused by this though, since we conceptually separate virtues and vices from personhood in a way that ancient people apparently did not.

    I could make a similar argument about envy. Envy by its nature seems to be dislike for what is better than one's self. But if you decide that you love good for its own sake, how can you be envious? I think envy can only exist when a person wants to feel himself to be the best, and hates all goodness which is outside of himself.

    From arguments such as these (many of which I worked out as an atheist), I realized that Christianity already said many of the things that I came up with by myself. So, as I said before, it doesn't really matter to me who wrote these things. I am able to verify the psychological aspect of these teachings without reference to outside authority.
  • wonderer1
    1.7k
    The fact that anything exists at all is proof that something exists which we can't understand. It might very well be God.Brendan Golledge

    It seems worth questioning that last sentence. Why might it very well be God?

    But then there is the question of what you mean by "God" as well.

    Do you consider God to be a mind? Do you see minds as the sort of things that are likely to exist without reasons for their existence?

    Of course there is all sorts of stuff we can't understand. Is that is what is to be referred to as "God"?
  • Moliere
    4.1k
    I have for several years been in the habit of consciously and deliberately changing my emotional state by this method. This is a large part of what convinces me that I have a higher level of consciousness than most people. Most people do not realize that their emotions are under conscious control. But I don't just choose what I do; I chose what I want to do.Brendan Golledge

    So I take it that this is the core of your reasoning: you've been in the habit of consciously changing yourself for the better, and so you are persuaded that your consciousness is higher than others.

    But how do you know others aren't doing the same? What is it that makes this change a higher change such that one's consciousness is increased? How do we numerate or compare consciousnesses to one another?
  • wonderer1
    1.7k
    But how do you know others aren't doing the same? What is it that makes this change a higher change such that one's consciousness is increased? How do we numerate or compare consciousnesses to one another?Moliere

    :100:
  • Tom Storm
    8.4k
    I am aware that evolution works by killing off the majority of life that is not most highly adapted.Brendan Golledge

    No, that's not my argument. I said nothing about evolution. I said that god/s built a creation largely dependent upon cruelty and predation.

    It is mostly Christians who are concerned with "Do I envy?" "Am I lusting after my neighbor's wife?" for their own sake, rather than as a part of an external moral system.Brendan Golledge

    No. Islam does this. Sikhs too. Bahai. Parsi, Jews. How many other religions do you know well?

    From arguments such as these (many of which I worked out as an atheist), I realized that Christianity already said many of the things that I came up with by myself.Brendan Golledge

    I suspect that you come from a Christian culture, so it would be a challenge for you to differentiate your ideas from notions already formed by encultured Christianity. This is something which effects all of us born into a culture shaped by centuries of a specific worldview.

    I think you have to choose one of these 3 options:
    1. There is an ultimate beginning
    2. Existence is infinitely old with no beginning
    3. The causality of existence is circular (like maybe somebody will go back in a time machine to create the big bang)
    Brendan Golledge

    Actually there's a 4th option which I go with. We don't know. There's no imperative to choose a placeholder explanation we can't demonstrate.

    They are speculation that I find interesting and meaningful, but they are in the end, speculation.Brendan Golledge

    Sure. Speculate away. :wink:
  • Brendan Golledge
    82
    My language is loose. But I know I have heard people say that grumpiness due to hunger is a part of their personality, and other such things, when I know that I am able to consciously change these aspects of myself. So, I think I can fairly say that I have a better working model for myself (what I imagine consciousness to be) than most other people.

    I know for sure that when I discuss my psychological model with other people, it's like I'm speaking a foreign language. That was the main point of this post, but people are arguing with me about God.
  • Brendan Golledge
    82
    It seems worth questioning that last sentence. Why might it very well be God?wonderer1

    "We don't know X. It might be Y." I don't think this sentence requires much proof. It would require a lot of proof if I claimed that X was certainly Y, but saying that Y is a possibility when we don't know what X is, does not seem all that controversial. I mean God here as the omnipotent omniscient bodiless timeless creator God imagined by the monotheistic religions. Although I'm not all that concerned with exact definitions, because we after all, don't know exactly what it is.
  • Brendan Golledge
    82
    No. Islam does this. Sikhs too. Bahai. Parsi, Jews. How many other religions do you know well?Tom Storm

    You are just wrong. I've seen interviews from multiple Jews who say that it is not a sin to desire something which is wrong, so long as you don't actually do it. For instance, they said that they don't care if someone is antisemetic, so long as they don't actually do bad things to Jews. They also said that pedophilia is not wrong, so long as it's not acted upon. I think you are projecting your own background onto other people.

    I also referred to the actual tenants of other religions which mention explicit actions rather than inward orientation. To say that other religions are concerned with inward orientation of the heart is to argue contrary to those religions' explicit teachings.

    Everyone from the West grew up on an implicitly Christian background. I have lived overseas in Russia and China and read ancient books, so I think I have a better idea of my own cultural background than most do, since I have something to compare it to.

    While I was teaching English in China, I had an extra lesson where I discussed different moral systems around the world. I taught the students that Jesus taught that If you do a good thing for bad reasons, Jesus would still say that was bad. The students were astonished, because they have never heard such a thing before, and they said that's not fair. So, it's absolutely not true that the Chinese have this concept. It is utterly foreign to them.
  • Brendan Golledge
    82
    That your definition of the Ubermensch doesn't even match Nietzsche's.Vaskane

    If you look up "what is the ubermensch" the first hit is, "the ideal superior man of the future who could rise above conventional Christian morality to create and impose his own values, originally described by Nietzsche in Thus Spake Zarathustra (1883–85)."

    I have argued:
    1. I have a method for consciously changing my values and emotions, which I briefly described. This seems to fit with "create ... his own values".
    2. I have argued that imposing one's values is impossible in principle, because values are arbitrarily asserted from within one's self.
    3. I left alone the issue of being "the ideal superior man". Apart from being quite arrogant to argue, there'd be no objective basis to argue it, since values are arbitrarily asserted from within one's self.

    From this definition, I have claimed to have met the only objective and possible part of the definition, and argued that the other parts are impossible or not well-defined.
  • Brendan Golledge
    82
    I am aware that evolution works by killing off the majority of life that is not most highly adapted.
    — Brendan Golledge

    No, that's not my argument. I said nothing about evolution. I said that god/s built a creation largely dependent upon cruelty and predation.
    Tom Storm

    I don't see the difference. Where is cruelty and predation outside of death?
  • flannel jesus
    1.4k
    The real Ubermensch would have no need or desire to prove he is to a bunch of randos on the internet. The existence of this thread demonstrates that you are not he.
  • Brendan Golledge
    82
    So, there could be 1 million Ubermensch already, but we wouldn't know because they'd be minding their own business?

    My real desire in writing this post was to share my psychological model. When I have tried to share it previously, it left no impression. I thought if I used language that other people are nominally interested in, then maybe they would pay attention. I have argued repeatedly that my method fits the criteria of being able to create one's own values, but nobody argues this point. I don't think most people actually care. They want what they want, but do not want to want differently.
  • flannel jesus
    1.4k
    So, there could be 1 million Ubermensch already, but we wouldn't know because they'd be minding their own business?Brendan Golledge

    They might not be exactly minding their own business, but they wouldn't feel the need to explain themselves I don't think. God doesn't explain why he has the right to be God.
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