And one could argue the purpose of the word negro was to describe color of skin. — Joshs
But it was likely never simply a neutral label, because it was shaped right from the start by the cultural context of its use, just as pronouns were never purely about biological sex. The modern scientific concept of sex didnt even exist until recently. Tracing the etymological history of male-female pronouns through different cultures would produce in every case meaning in which whatever ‘natural’ sense of the binary was hopelessly and inextricably entangled with cultural understanding of gender roles. — Joshs
You want to be careful here , because look how easily we could insert the word ‘negro’ into your account. In fact , conservatives like William F . Buckley used a justification not unlike your argument for not supporting the civil rights movement. — Joshs
The burden was upon the negroes to convince the larger population of the need for the changes they advocated. I agree that whether one’s cause is worthy ultimately will be decided not simply by our own desires but by convincing others. — Joshs
I'd still quibble over the language. I'd say now she knows how she's going to be judged there. And she doesn't really have a way to not be her, at least in the short term. She'd just be hiding who she was, and like feeling the aggression and hiding it. So, if the views make her something, she's still that something, but managing the camouflage it. If we shift to morals, for a moment. Morals vary culture to culture. I go somewhere where oral sex is consider immoral and in my hotel room engage in oral sex. Even though I am in that country and know their views, I wasn't immoral.At this point she understands within that culture that her behavior is seen as belonging to the male gender, not the female gender. If she says to herself, "I don't care, I'm still going to be me." she is transgendered in that culture. — Philosophim
So, are you transgender as a transvestite when you dress that way, or all the time? What if you are traditionally male in your culture 99% of the time, but once in a while you dress up as a woman to get sexual pleasure? But then otherwise a violent, womanizing professional rugby player (on a men's team) who only talks about cars, sports and how to fix things with tools around the house. :grin: Apologies to anyone offended by my tongue in cheek ethnology example. And in a sense the reason it works is the sexual frisson this occasional behavior creates due to the contrast with his usual way of being. It's not finally showing his true nature in secret. Or, the same man otherwise who instead likes to be dominated sexually, sometimes. I suppose I am probing here because I think it might be better not to label people and in a binary way (not just that it's binary between male and female, but also binary between being transgender or not.) Not that it has the horrific moral overtones of the one drop of blood determination of race, but perhaps has a similar misleading binariness.Yes. To be a transvestite is to dress in the manner as the opposite sex that clearly conveys this to other people. This does not mean they are transex, just transgender. — Philosophim
But that's just the thing: to me, at least in general, they were not told that. It was not a term of insult, nor was it part of getting them back on the right side of the gender fence. It was a kind of minority normalness. Oh, she's a tom boy. Now that might have been in the subculture I was in, loosely urban U.S. But it was a fairly diverse group of children and people - well, that's urban. There was a qualititative difference between being called a tom boy and being called a 'fag' say. One could say, parent to parent, Oh your girl's quite the tom boy and not get into a fist fight.Just because we use the term transgendered more today doesn't mean it can't be applied retroactively to the past. Telling someone, "You're acting like a boy," is telling someone, "You're acting like the wrong gender". — Philosophim
My quibble has less problem with this last description - the actions are transgendered there, which they would be even if I never realized during my whole stay. Rather than become transgendered. And natives often understand that that's just the way people are from other cultures.To be clear, being transgender does not mean you've changed your sex. You have not become, "Something else". You are simply dressing, acting, or behaving in a way that a particular culture expects people of a particular sex to do. If I'm a male that likes putting on nail extenders and painting them hot pink, I'm still a male. The action I'm doing is transgender, as normative American culture expects that only women do this. — Philosophim
I did understand that one wasn't changing sex in this situation. I just don't think you're changing anything at all. The new situation is what is happening in the way you are viewed. Just as the viewing one as male - if the other group thought you were actually male when you're not - doesn't make you male, the viewing you as transgendered doesn't make you differently gendered. I understand that the two judgments/situations are not the same, but me, I'd avoid labeling the person as going from X to Y, and rather describe it in terms of how the different players are viewing the situation.As you can see the colors which are escribed to modern genders were once reversed. Did men suddenly become women and vice versa once we switched colors? Of course not. — Philosophim
One could, I suppose come up with arguments why emphasizing statistical tendencies (different tendencies the different bodies have) might have been useful in tribal situations. But I'm not even sure that holds.I agree! I think we can take questions of 'transgender' and look at them more in depth. If your boy is open with their feelings, why do you think that shouldn't be? They're still a boy whether they hide their feelings or not, so what's the reasoning behind a gendered idea that they should be stoic and unsharing? — Philosophim
I believe people should be the gender they consider themselves to be. — Tom Storm
or some combination thereof, but because their gender is idiosyncratic and outside of the familiar categories. — Joshs
I don't think this is morality, this is just a proper way to identify people. — Philosophim
Are we really at such a point that a 'discussion' mitigates other such concerns that may have primacy with regards to such extensive/extreme modifications.I believe people should be free to do what they want to do in life. There are people who also want to cut their arm off. If after a discussion they still want to, let them. — Philosophim
Perhaps they are all worried that the other side will convince you that your sins are virtues.I see no safe haven to be ourselves on any part of the political spectrum. — Bylaw
There seems a strong urge to define me (along with everyone else) and oversimplify me (and everyone else) on both sides.Perhaps they are all worried that the other side will convince you that your sins are virtues. — substantivalism
I'm trying to understand your position by posing questions to you that your position entails an answer to... Why does not extend to the age, race, weight and height one 'considers' themselves to be? This exact logic is why 'adult babies' are a thing. I would assume you note the patent mental arrest involved in that notion? — AmadeusD
1. You aren't disregarding the old words to make a new word, you are using the same word. We're still using 'him' and 'her'. This would be like me still continuing to use negro but saying, "Yeah, but it doesn't mean slave or black anymore, don't think that way."
2. The disregard for negro was to regard what was offensive or oppressive. There is nothing offensive or oppressive about the part that pronouns were used primarily to identify sex. — Philosophim
At this point she understands within that culture that her behavior is seen as belonging to the male gender, not the female gender. If she says to herself, "I don't care, I'm still going to be me." she is transgendered in that culture.
— Philosophim
I'd still quibble over the language. I'd say now she knows how she's going to be judged there. And she doesn't really have a way to not be her, at least in the short term. She'd just be hiding who she was, and like feeling the aggression and hiding it. So, if the views make her something, she's still that something, but managing the camouflage it. — Bylaw
So, are you transgender as a transvestite when you dress that way, or all the time? — Bylaw
What if you are traditionally male in your culture 99% of the time, but once in a while you dress up as a woman to get sexual pleasure? — Bylaw
Or, the same man otherwise who instead likes to be dominated sexually, sometimes. I suppose I am probing here because I think it might be better not to label people and in a binary way — Bylaw
But that's just the thing: to me, at least in general, they were not told that. It was not a term of insult, nor was it part of getting them back on the right side of the gender fence. It was a kind of minority normalness. Oh, she's a tom boy. Now that might have been in the subculture I was in, loosely urban U.S. — Bylaw
There was a qualititative difference between being called a tom boy and being called a 'fag' say. One could say, parent to parent, Oh your girl's quite the tom boy and not get into a fist fight. — Bylaw
My quibble has less problem with this last description - the actions are transgendered there, which they would be even if I never realized during my whole stay. Rather than become transgendered. — Bylaw
I did understand that one wasn't changing sex in this situation. I just don't think you're changing anything at all. The new situation is what is happening in the way you are viewed. Just as the viewing one as male - if the other group thought you were actually male when you're not - doesn't make you male, the viewing you as transgendered doesn't make you differently gendered. — Bylaw
↪Philosophim I really respect your responses to Joshs. Wanted to throw that out. He's playing a game, and you're not biting. It's great to see. — AmadeusD
I don't think this is morality, this is just a proper way to identify people.
— Philosophim
You are way too educated and too smart to let yourself get away with this sort of thing. I'm going to leave it there. — unenlightened
I believe people should be free to do what they want to do in life. There are people who also want to cut their arm off. If after a discussion they still want to, let them.
— Philosophim
Are we really at such a point that a 'discussion' mitigates other such concerns that may have primacy with regards to such extensive/extreme modifications. — substantivalism
Being transgendered by definition, is committing actions associated with the cultural expectations of the other sex, and not your sex. You do not own gender. Culture does. Gender is not genetic. You can be a girly boy or a manly man. Neither is gender. You can like painting your nails or not as a man. That is not gender. Gender is culture's expectation of how you should act based on your sex. — Philosophim
I caution against despairaging anyone here for their view — Philosophim
Do you think that the umbrella of transgender can include within it a notion of gender not tied to any knowledge of biological sex? For instance, those who believe that everyone has their own unique gender, just as everyone has their own personality dispositions. — Joshs
As noted earlier, this is pretty silly. You're describing the function of names. People are allowed to choose their own names — AmadeusD
A familiar argument from trans bigotry talking points. When people straw man trans using exaggeration to argue that - 'next people will want to identify as an air conditioning unit or a maidenhair fern' - that's just bigotry wrestling with social change. — Tom Storm
The fact that there are some people who are delusional or make other strange claims is irrelevant to the crux of this issue. Trans depicted as a type of Pandora's box is a popular trope. — Tom Storm
I accept that there are individuals whose gender identity differs from the sex they were assigned at birth. — Tom Storm
Are there some trans people who are aggressive or mentally unwell? Sure. We would find this amongst almost any group of human beings. So what? — Tom Storm
What is it about ‘he’ and ‘she’ there make it important to use these terms in everyday conversation? — Joshs
but is it any more relevant and useful than inserting skin color into the conversation of a mixed group? — Joshs
Of you think it’s silly for individuals to invent their own roles, is it any less silly for an entire culture to impose binary roles? — Joshs
Can you see that the origin of the everyday use of he and she goes back to eras when there was a sharon difference in roles between men and women? — Joshs
I know what the one's called 'dyke' went through. I know what the guys called fag went through. Remember these names are not meant just for the target. They are meant as open gossip, telling others what to think of that person. I don't remember pressure to think there was anything wrong with tomboys. I certainly did with other names, even milder stuff like wimp.I think because you were not a tom boy, that you don't have the understanding of what tom boys went through. — Philosophim
Well, again, all I can say is it did not have a 'calling out' quality and there were terms that were a calling out and criticism.Calling someone a tom boy is expressing publicly that a woman is not behaving within the cultural gendered norm of their sex. — Philosophim
To me it then has little to do with the self. Unless it does. But if it doesn't. My wife wore a headscarf in one country, but she hadn't changed. Just a practical and perhaps safety issue. Some people on the other hand are transgendered. IOW for them they decide to shift over on what for them is an essential level and or they feel like 'really' they have been but his this essential nature. In those situations I feel comfortable given them a name that implies something essential. I just don't think it makes sense when most of what happens is in other people.No denial that she's hiding what she is. Gender often asks us to behave, act, and dress in ways we would rather not. Much of gender is a holdover from a less technologically advanced and enlightened society, and is too often an undercurrent of sexism. Gender is a social construct, and a social construct that pressures you to act, dress, or behave a certain way. — Philosophim
-Sure, my point was that with names like these there is anger and negative judgment.Same with calling someone else's son a girly man or mama's boy. Being transgender doesn't have anything to do with your sexual orientation. — Philosophim
Well, we're all doing that, we're just at varied distances from the places that see them this way. And given subcultures and individuals, we're all probably near people who do this. Stuff happens when they see me. The do/feel/react in certain ways.To be clear from earlier. Everyone makes transgendered actions. To be identified as 'transgendered' you must be someone who willfully violates gender norms consistently and willfully. — Philosophim
Nor does it make you differently gendered. It doesn't do anything unless it leads to action on the part of that person making the judgment.Viewing you as transgendered doesn't make you differently sexed. — Philosophim
That last sentence says it for me. The actually event is in the beholders. I act in way X in my city and people don't see me as transgendered, except in some neighborhoods. I travel to another land or enter a subculture's turf in my country or meet by partner's parents and her big family. They judge me differently. I didn't become transgendered. What I am like triggered a set of thoughts in people. Something happened in them. Their expectations got contradicted and this led to irritation, fear, confusion, hatred, whatever....in them. They changed. They didn't change gender. But something occurred in them.Viewing you as transgendered doesn't make you differently sexed. Being transgendered by definition, is committing actions associated with the cultural expectations of the other sex, and not your sex. You do not own gender. Culture does. Gender is not genetic. You can be a girly boy or a manly man. Neither is gender. You can like painting your nails or not as a man. That is not gender. Gender is culture's expectation of how you should act based on your sex. — Philosophim
Thanks. I think we actually agree about many things, but, yeah, I'm being stubborn about a few points.Good conversation Bylaw, I really appreciate you digging in. :) — Philosophim
but is it any more relevant and useful than inserting skin color into the conversation of a mixed group?
— Joshs
Oh, yes, obviously. Men and women have on average very different experiences of hte world, even if you can conceptualise a socially equal 'treatment'. Though, we're definitely going to be differing on the extent to which we have moved toward that goal — AmadeusD
. I think it is not reasonable to think males/females or in typical parlance 'men and women' are the same, or that they would be the same in any circumstances. They are biologically different, on average, in significant ways and require different things from the world, and provide different things to the world. That this is the case seems inarguable to me, and so attempting to minize the aspects that make people what they are seems odd to me, and counter to reality. Knowing whether someone is female will alter the way i speak with them, in light of what I can assume their experience has been in a world where females, on average, experience certain positives and certain negatives and male, a differing (and, obviously - though again, we'll disagree in degree - disproportionate) set of those. — AmadeusD
And yet , he and she are but into all social interchanges. I suggest the reason for this is our tacit belief that our cultural assumptions concerning the roles and behaviors of maleness and femaleness of those we are interacting with is relevant. — Joshs
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2310012121 [Paywalled and I haven't read more than what I've quoted.]Deep learning models reveal replicable, generalizable, and behaviorally relevant sex differences in human functional brain organization
Significance
Sex is an important biological factor that influences human behavior, impacting brain function and the manifestation of psychiatric and neurological disorders. However, previous research on how brain organization differs between males and females has been inconclusive. Leveraging recent advances in artificial intelligence and large multicohort fMRI (functional MRI) datasets, we identify highly replicable, generalizable, and behaviorally relevant sex differences in human functional brain organization localized to the default mode network, striatum, and limbic network. Our findings advance the understanding of sex-related differences in brain function and behavior. More generally, our approach provides AI–based tools for probing robust, generalizable, and interpretable neurobiological measures of sex differences in psychiatric and neurological disorders.
Abstract
Sex plays a crucial role in human brain development, aging, and the manifestation of psychiatric and neurological disorders. However, our understanding of sex differences in human functional brain organization and their behavioral consequences has been hindered by inconsistent findings and a lack of replication. Here, we address these challenges using a spatiotemporal deep neural network (stDNN) model to uncover latent functional brain dynamics that distinguish male and female brains. Our stDNN model accurately differentiated male and female brains, demonstrating consistently high cross-validation accuracy (>90%), replicability, and generalizability across multisession data from the same individuals and three independent cohorts (N ~ 1,500 young adults aged 20 to 35). Explainable AI (XAI) analysis revealed that brain features associated with the default mode network, striatum, and limbic network consistently exhibited significant sex differences (effect sizes > 1.5) across sessions and independent cohorts. Furthermore, XAI-derived brain features accurately predicted sex-specific cognitive profiles, a finding that was also independently replicated. Our results demonstrate that sex differences in functional brain dynamics are not only highly replicable and generalizable but also behaviorally relevant, challenging the notion of a continuum in male-female brain organization. Our findings underscore the crucial role of sex as a biological determinant in human brain organization, have significant implications for developing personalized sex-specific biomarkers in psychiatric and neurological disorders, and provide innovative AI-based computational tools for future research.
I assume by biological differences between men and women you’re not referring to feminization of brain connections producing characteristic gender-related behaviors from birth. Rather, I take it the differences you have in mind are socially imposed due to women’s capacity for childbirth, their size and strength relative to the average man , etc — Joshs
arose due to — Joshs
because of a belief shared by many cultures in history that women were mentally inferior to men, — Joshs
I don’t think we perpetuate the ubiquitous use of he and she pronouns simply because of differences in life experiences between men and women — Joshs
A recent paper suggests that it is deeper than culture:
Deep learning models reveal replicable, generalizable, and behaviorally relevant sex differences in human functional brain organization — wonderer1
This is a really interesting question. Don't think there's any good answers currently.it is reasonable to assume that a whole range of intermediate differences in functional brain organization are regularly produced? — Joshs
I haven’t mentioned the move to discard black in favor of African American. What was behind this initiative? The concern was that black, in referring to a biological
feature common to certain people , associated that group with the concept of race. — Joshs
It was
thought that African, on the other hand, would direct one toward a cultural rather than biological identification, just as indigenous or native peoples accomplishes relative to ‘Indian’. — Joshs
Race is no longer considered by geneticists to be a coherent scientific notion, and has been used mainly to discriminate against individuals. — Joshs
The term ‘person of color’ achieves something similar but in a more inclusive way. It’s important to note that built into the embrace of blackness as a term is that it includes within its meaning the sense of being a minority in danger of marginalization. — Joshs
It’s important to note that built into the embrace of blackness as a term is that it includes within its meaning the sense of being a minority in danger of marginalization. In other words, it is considered important that a word which distinguishes one group from others on the basis of the particular surface indicator of skin color should be used not only as a banner of pride but of continuing struggle for acceptance. — Joshs
This strategy to knowingly keep using a term that in part connotes marginalization is seen in the embrace of the word ‘queer’. It has built into its sense both the recognition that certain groups have been considered as freaks, perverts or pathological by the dominant culture, and that these groups are turning that meaning into a positive by celebrating their non-conformity. — Joshs
You have argued that black means the same thing as negro or colored; they all refer to skin color. But the fact is all these words mean different things in different contexts for different people. What is relevant here is that there were predominant meanings associated with some of them that were damaging to the group they weren’t being applied to. — Joshs
it’s emergence was associated with bold messaging such as ‘black is beautiful’ and ‘black power’. Beauty and power are concepts that were not generally associated with negro and colored. Blackness was designed to be as much a cultural as a physical concept, reflecting the rapid and dramatic changes in attitude that took place in the 1960’s. — Joshs
Many women would say yes. But what evidence do we have that cultural stereotypes are ingrained within the word ‘she’ that have affected women on a day to day basis? For starters, applying for a bank loan, mortgage, credit card or job was a very different experience for a woman than for a man. — Joshs
But one might ask, is there a way to change attitudes about femaleness without eliminating she? — Joshs
So far I’ve been arguing that harmful cultural prejudices make their way so frequently into what we mean when we use a word like ‘negro’ or ‘she’ that the groups affected by these uses felt it necessary to call attention to such uses by playing with the language. — Joshs
Your concern has been that, however we decide to re-educate ourselves concerning the detrimental cultural aspects, we must protect those words that provide a clear meaning of physical and biological differences. “Blackness” allows us to have our cake and eat it , too, by changing attitudes without getting rid of the physical meaning. But eliminating words that refer to the biological sex binary would seem to block access to such clarity. — Joshs
But how many of the occasions when we reflexivity use the word ‘she’ involve a need to know the biology of the person we are dealing with? — Joshs
I suggest the reason for this is our tacit assumptions that our cultural assumptions concerning the roles of and behaviors don maleness and femaleness of those we are interacting with is relevant. — Joshs
Some may accept a biological binary, some may not. For those that do, they can simply refer to it directly, leaving out all gender implications. — Joshs
Do you think that the umbrella of transgender can include within it a notion of gender not tied to any knowledge of biological sex? For instance, those who believe that everyone has their own unique gender, just as everyone has their own personality dispositions. and that biological sex is not relevant to this fact. — Joshs
I know what the one's called 'dyke' went through. I know what the guys called fag went through. — Bylaw
Well, we're all doing that, we're just at varied distances from the places that see them this way. And given subcultures and individuals, we're all probably near people who do this. Stuff happens when they see me. The do/feel/react in certain ways. — Bylaw
Viewing you as transgendered doesn't make you differently sexed.
— Philosophim
Nor does it make you differently gendered. It doesn't do anything unless it leads to action on the part of that person making the judgment. — Bylaw
That last sentence says it for me. The actually event is in the beholders. I act in way X in my city and people don't see me as transgendered, except in some neighborhoods. I travel to another land or enter a subculture's turf in my country or meet by partner's parents and her big family. They judge me differently. I didn't become transgendered. — Bylaw
Also, I really appreciate your thoughts and replies. I can see your viewpoint articulated well and I hope the discussion is enjoyable. :) — Philosophim
I’m actually sympathetic to this argument, but very carefully qualified. Let me ask you , to the extent that you think they’re onto something, would you agree that , since anything biology is capable of , it will do in many ways, it is reasonable to assume that a whole range of intermediate differences in functional brain organization are regularly produced? — Joshs
This would give biological justification not only for binary differences in gender behavior , but also for gay and transgender identities. Of course, all this would be intertwined in complex ways with culture. — Joshs
I'm sorry if you are not aware - I did not make this up. — AmadeusD
It is extremely important to the crux of this issue. Ignoring the factor of mental illness, delusion and the violation of others rights based on it, is, ironically, the half of the story you refuse to acknowledge in the discussion. — AmadeusD
There are adult babies. They claim their identity in exactly the same way trans people do. — AmadeusD
THe fact that you have some store of 'trans bigotry talking points' makes it absolutely clear you are not being reasonable or sensible here. You've taken a position, you're afraid to mvoe from it and you're now deploying buzz words of social opinion to impugn a position based on fact. — AmadeusD
It's so peculiar to permit forms of perceived abnormality to such an irrational degree. Where does this naïve compassion/entertainment end and a repression of a natural shaming mentality begin?I'm trying to understand your position by posing questions to you that your position entails an answer to... Why does not extend to teh age, race, weight and height one 'considers' themselves to be? This exact logic is why 'adult babies' are a thing. I would assume you note the patent mental arrest involved in that notion? Why do you not apply the same logic to people who are, lets say, unique in their aberrant (socially speaking) perception of themselves? It just seems like you'v enot thought about htis at all, and rely on compassion for a position that has much, much deep implications than "i don't like to upset people" — AmadeusD
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