• wonderer1
    1.8k
    "This sentence is not true" is not a truth bearer thus not a proposition thus cannot be included in any Boolean logic system.PL Olcott

    A physical analog would be a digital logic inverter (NOT gate) with its output connected back to its input. Such a circuit forms an oscillator, with the output continually swinging back and forth between 0 and 1.
  • PL Olcott
    526
    This seems your source of misunderstanding. In propositional logic, you would day "This sentence is not true." But in predicate logic, it can be translated into "Some sentence is not true."
    In FOL it can be translated into "X is not true." which are all perfectly true or false depending on the truth criteria of the quantifiers and variables.
    Corvus

    The Variables of propositional logic and every other order of bivalent logic must have a Boolean value. Any variables that cannot possibly be true or false must be excluded from every bivalent logic system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-valued_logic can have the values {True, False, Nonsense}.
    "This sentence is not true" has the semantic value of {nonsense}.

    The predicate Is_Not_True(X) summarize by the operator "~" is fine unless
    X is defined as X := ~True(X). Then it is the oscillator that wonderer1 referred to.
  • PL Olcott
    526
    A physical analog would be a digital logic inverter (NOT gate) with its output connected back to its input. Such a circuit forms an oscillator, with the output continually swinging back and forth between 0 and 1.wonderer1

    Good job that is a perfect analogy!
  • Corvus
    3k
    The Variables of propositional logic and every other order of bivalent logic must have a Boolean value.PL Olcott

    Variables in propositional logic is for the whole sentence, not the elements in the sentence, hence its limitation. You are still talking under the propositional logic domain only.

    When you widen the scope into predicate logic, FOL and HOL, the concept of truth and falsity has multifaceted nature. FOL enables you employ the variables for the individuals and subjects. HOL can deal with the variables for the relations, operators and properties within the sentence.
  • PL Olcott
    526
    When you widen the scope into predicate logic, FOL and HOL, the concept of truth and falsity has multifaceted nature. FOL enables you employ the variables for the individuals and subjects. HOL can deal with the variables for the relations, operators and properties within the sentence.Corvus

    None-the-less in every bivalent system of logic we must be able to reduce every variable to a Boolean value. Your reply did not seem to understand that. Your reply merely stated that variables in higher orders of logic represent more complex things than in Propositional logic.

    It seems that you are simply failing to understand this:
    In logic, a three-valued logic (also trinary logic, trivalent, ternary, or trilean,[1] sometimes abbreviated 3VL) is any of several many-valued logic systems in which there are three truth values indicating true, false, and some third value. This is contrasted with the more commonly known bivalent logics (such as classical sentential or Boolean logic) which provide only for true and false.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-valued_logic

    A three-valued logic system that can easily handle self-contradictory expressions would have the values of: {True, False, Nonsense}.
  • Corvus
    3k
    None-the-less in every bivalent system of logic we must be able to reduce every variable to a Boolean value. Your reply did not seem to understand that.PL Olcott
    Your reply merely stated that variables in higher orders of logic represent more complex things than in Propositional logic.PL Olcott
    You are still under confusion, or don't want to see the real point. We have not been only talking about bivalent system of logic here. If you can recall the OP is about HOL. Not 2000 year old propositional logic. Hence it was necessary and relevant considering and looking into the multifaceted nature of truth, which are in the domains of FOL and HOL.

    This is contrasted with the more commonly known bivalent logics (such as classical sentential or Boolean logic) which provide only for true and false.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-valued_logic
    PL Olcott
    You have been reading too much Wiki pages, and they can lead you to the wrong places unfortunately.

    A three-valued logic system that can easily handle self-contradictory expressions would have the values of: {True, False, Nonsense}.PL Olcott
    If some thing is Nonsense, then it is equivalent to False. In FOL HOL, truth values can be far more than just 3 above you listed. : {True, False, Unknown, Neutral, Contradiction}
  • PL Olcott
    526
    You have been reading too much Wiki pages, and they can lead you to the wrong places unfortunately.Corvus

    I always verify that the essential reasoning is correct.
    The key elements of my system come straight from me figuring them out and
    no one ever wrote them down before.

    If some thing is Nonsense, then it is equivalent to False. In FOL HOL, truth values can be far more than just 3 above you listed. : {True, False, Unknown, Neutral, Contradiction}Corvus

    A currently unknown Boolean value is still a Boolean value.
    No such thing as a neutral Boolean value. "What time is it?" has no Boolean value.
    Contradiction proves False.

    "This sentence is not true"
    (a) If it was false that would make it true and
    (b) If it was true that would make it false,
    thus it takes on the third value of nonsense.
    {Nonsense} is reserved for expressions that cannot be true or false.
  • Corvus
    3k
    A currently unknown Boolean value is still a Boolean value.
    No such thing as a neutral Boolean value.
    PL Olcott
    Boolean values are applicable up to FOL, but FOL cannot express the full complexities in the world. Hence you are going up to HOL, which has the extended truth values, and can describe more complex states of the real world.

    "What time is it?" has no Boolean value.
    Contradiction proves False.
    PL Olcott
    In HOL, "What time is it?" would be translated into computable format, and can be processed for the proper truth values.

    {Nonsense} is reserved for expressions that cannot be true or false.PL Olcott
    Nonsense is not a logic world. It is an ordinary linguistic expression to mean False with added stupidity and foolishness connotation.
  • PL Olcott
    526
    Boolean values are applicable up to FOL, but FOL cannot express the full complexities in the world. Hence you are going up to HOL, which has the extended truth values, and can describe more complex states of the real world.Corvus

    Boolean values are properties of every Proposition
    A proposition is a central concept in the philosophy of language, semantics, logic, and related fields, often characterized as the primary bearer of truth or falsity. Propositions are also often characterized as being the kind of thing that declarative sentences denote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition

    In HOL, "What time is it?" would be translated into computable format, and can be processed for the proper truth values.Corvus

    No not at all. When I ask you is this sentence true or false: "What time is it?"
    you have no correct answer because the question has a type mismatch error

    Nonsense is not a logic world. It is an ordinary linguistic expression to mean False with added stupidity and foolishness connotation.Corvus

    {Nonsense} is a stipulated term of the art of my formal three-valued formal system of logic
    having values of {True, False, Nonsense} that only applies to expressions such as this:

    ...14 Every epistemological antinomy can likewise be used for a similar
    undecidability proof...(Gödel 1931:43-44)

    epistemological antinomy AKA self-contradictory expression that cannot possibly be true or false.
    This guy seems to sum up my exact same position much more clearly.

    The Strengthened Liar and Paradoxes of Incompleteness
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LWQPGjAs3M
  • Corvus
    3k
    Boolean values are properties of every Proposition
    A proposition is a central concept in the philosophy of language, semantics, logic, and related fields, often characterized as the primary bearer of truth or falsity. Propositions are also often characterized as being the kind of thing that declarative sentences denote.
    PL Olcott

    A truck load of strawmen here. I didn't deny Boolean values, but I was simply saying that in FOL and HOL, you have the extended truth values including Boolean.
  • Corvus
    3k
    {Nonsense} is a stipulated term of the art of my formal three-valued formal system of logic
    having values of {True, False, Nonsense} that only applies to expressions such as this:
    PL Olcott
    Nonsense !! Nonsense is just a colloquial expression saying, no you are bloody wrong mate.

    The Strengthened Liar and Paradoxes of Incompleteness
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LWQPGjAs3M
    PL Olcott
    Many Wiki pages and Youtube videos are rubbish. Don't trust and worship them as if they are the bible. Think with your own mind, and if it doesn't make sense, then you should be able to say "Nonsense mate. This is what I think, because of this and that." As I said before, they may slag you for saying what you think is true, but at least you know you have been thinking with your own mind, rather than parroting what the Wiki pages and Youtubers said, or joined the herd of the inauthentic comedians seeking pleasure out of attacking the authentic self thinking man.
  • PL Olcott
    526
    A truck load of strawmen here. I didn't deny Boolean values, but I was simply saying that in FOL and HOL, you have the extended truth values including Boolean.Corvus

    I don't think that you can find any source that ever says anything like that for bivalent systems of logic. I don't think you can find any sources that say anything like that for (a) propositional logic (b) FOL, (c) SOL, (d) HOL.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle only works in bivalent logic.
  • PL Olcott
    526
    Nonsense !! Nonsense is just a colloquial expression saying, no you are bloody wrong mate.Corvus

    I have found that line of reasoning ineffective so I switched. We have to resolve my prior reply before you can begin to understand my updated reasoning.
  • Corvus
    3k
    I don't think that you can find any source that ever says anything like that for bivalent systems of logic. I don't think you can find any sources that say anything like that for (a) propositional logic (b) FOL, (c) SOL, (d) HOL.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle only works in bivalent logic.
    PL Olcott

    You should read some good Mathematical Logic books, not the Wiki pages.
    But think about it even with your common sense. The world contains more problems, structures, events and objects than things that are just True or False.

    For simplest example, when you see a formula, X > 3, that is not true or false until you know the value of X. Until that moment, X > 3 remains unknown.

    If you say, "It is raining now." then it could be True in your town, but it could be false for someone living in some other part of the world, because it could be sunny. So your statement is contradictory when looking from both areas of the world.

    Some statements or formula depicting the real world structure, events or objects can be unknown, neutral or contradictory. You don't simply reject that as nonsense. You accept them as true, false, unknown, neutral or contradictory depending on the given formula, statements, and analysis.
  • Corvus
    3k
    I have found that line of reasoning ineffective so I switched. We have to resolve my prior reply before you can begin to understand my updated reasoning.PL Olcott

    Please reread my post above.
  • PL Olcott
    526
    You should read some good Mathematical Logic books, not the Wiki pages.
    But think about it even with your common sense. The world contains more problems, structures, events and objects than things that are just True or False.
    Corvus

    It is a Boolean valued system. When epistemological antinomies are involved they must be rejected
    as a type mismatch error because that have no Boolean values.

    For simplest example, when you see a formula, X > 3, that is not true or false until you know the value of X. Until that moment, X > 3 remains unknown.Corvus

    It is resolved to true or false on the basis of the value of X.
    Epistemological antinomies cannot possibly ever be resolved to a value of true or false.

    If you say, "It is raining now." then it could be True in your town, but it could be false for someone living in some other part of the world, because it could be sunny. So your statement is contradictory when looking from both areas of the world.Corvus

    Yet again can possibly be resolved to a value of true or false depending on location.

    Some statements or formula depicting the real world structure, events or objects can be unknown, neutral or contradictory. You don't simply reject that as nonsense. You accept them as true, false, unknown, neutral or contradictory depending on the given formula, statements, and analysis.Corvus

    Only well formed declarative sentences of natural language can be true or false. Any expression of language that is not a proposition must be rejected as a type mismatch error for any formal bivalent system of logic.

    A proposition is a central concept in the philosophy of language, semantics, logic, and related fields, often characterized as the primary bearer of truth or falsity. Propositions are also often characterized as being the kind of thing that declarative sentences denote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition
  • PL Olcott
    526
    I have found that line of reasoning ineffective so I switched. We have to resolve my prior reply before you can begin to understand my updated reasoning.
    — PL Olcott

    Please reread my post above.
    Corvus

    Instead of a three values system with {True, False and Nonsense} I have bivalent systems of logic that derive a type mismatch error for any expression that is not a proposition.

    A proposition is a central concept in the philosophy of language, semantics, logic, and related fields, often characterized as the primary bearer of truth or falsity. Propositions are also often characterized as being the kind of thing that declarative sentences denote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition
  • Corvus
    3k
    Instead of a three values system with {True, False and Nonsense} I have bivalent systems of logic that derive a type mismatch error for any expression that is not a proposition.PL Olcott

    It is a Boolean valued system. When epistemological antinomies are involved they must be rejected
    as a type mismatch error because that have no Boolean values.
    PL Olcott

    You are confusing between HOL and Computer Programming. In HOL, there is no such things as Boolean values. There are {Truth, False, Unknown, Contradiction, Neutral}, and they are the values of logical interpretation.

    Boolean is a type of data in programming language. Boolean type value is not True or False, but "1" or "0", and certainly never have anything to do with "Nonsense".
  • PL Olcott
    526
    You are confusing between HOL and Computer Programming. In HOL, there is no such things as Boolean values. There are {Truth, False, Unknown, Contradiction, Neutral}, and they are the values of logical interpretation.Corvus

    They call functions of the Boolean type predicates in all orders of predicate logic. Functions of any other type are called functions. Predicate: >(5,2)==TRUE Function: +(5,2)==7
  • Corvus
    3k
    They call functions of the Boolean type predicates in all orders of predicate logic. Functions of any other type are called functions. Predicate: >(5,2)==TRUE Function: +(5,2)==7PL Olcott
    For some unknown reasons, you changed the subject to Functions. There are differences in functions of math, and functions in computer programming. Can you explain the difference?

    Predicate: >(5,2)==TRUE Function: +(5,2)==7PL Olcott
    Could you please explain that in plain English? And how is it related to our discussion?
  • PL Olcott
    526
    Could you please explain that in plain English? And how is it related to our discussion?Corvus

    All bivalent systems of predicate logic only have (by definition of bivalent) two
    Boolean values of True or False with nothing in between. What you have been
    saying is the same as saying 2 == 5.
  • Corvus
    3k
    All bivalent systems of predicate logic only have (by definition of bivalent) two
    Boolean values of True or False with nothing in between. What you have been
    saying is the same as saying 2 == 5.
    PL Olcott

    I never said that. You keep misinterpreting me.

    Anyhow it shows you that bivalent logic is not useful and incapable for the real world uses in describing the complexities of the structures, events and objects.

    Not sure if your previous post was about the function call in Prolog, but it didn't look like the standard way of using function calls in the other PLs, hence I asked you about the difference between math functions and programming functions.
  • PL Olcott
    526
    Anyhow it shows you that bivalent logic is not useful and incapable for the real world uses in describing the complexities of the structures, events and objects.Corvus

    Not at all every declarative sentence is {True, False} or incorrect.

    Not sure if your previous post was about the function call in Prolog, but it didn't look like the standard way of using function calls in the other PLs, hence I asked you about the difference between math functions and programming functions.Corvus

    Prolog does not simply assume that every statement is True or False, thus can screen
    out epistemological antinomies that are simply incorrect.
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