what role does education have in society and perhaps more importantly in our daily lives? — Shawn

To have a collection of shared values and concepts to be used as instruments in understanding one another. Shared values are fundamental to harmonious societies, hence we see that not all homogenous societies are peaceful, but all societies that are peaceful are homogenous, and all heterogenous societies are chaotic.

In a sense, it's an act of validation that the struggles and great suffering of those before us was not in vain. A form of immortality achieved by those who brought us the facts and findings we now take for granted in our everyday lives. Imagine the frustration of those who spent years and yes indeed even lifetimes struggling in a cold, dark lab foregoing the pleasures and desires of the flesh, even companionship and therefore the human experience as a whole, to produce the discoveries and findings they did. And those were the lucky ones who managed to achieve something notable during such a life. Many did not, though thankfully most at least contributed something to lay the foundation of works others did complete in theirs.

"The simplest schoolboy is now familiar with truths for which Archimedes would have sacrificed his life"
- Ernest Renan

Society and yes even humanity is a never-ending chain of knowledge and accomplishment, sprinkled generously with failures and drawbacks, which of course only sweeten the rewards we do find.

Education, or generational knowledge, is indeed one of the things that separate man from animal, I believe. Sure, squirrels hide nuts for the winter, birds crack open coconuts by dropping them on rocks from a great distance, beavers build lodges with a level of craftsmanship and engineering prowess that rivals that of most adults, but none of which compare to the vast repository of knowledge mankind has amassed over the generations.

Without education, the medium of all knowledge and understanding, what is life but a prolonged cruel and unusual punishment all sentient beings are sentenced to at birth?

There needs to be much more of an emphasis on vocational training in public high schools. There are always students in my class who love working with tools and hate reading books and writing essays.

Shared values are fundamental to harmonious societies, hence we see that not all homogenous societies are peaceful, but all societies that are peaceful are homogenous, and all heterogenous societies are chaotic. — Lionino

Seems true; but, definitely disagree that 'all heterogenous societies are chaotic.'...

In a sense, it's an act of validation that the struggles and great suffering of those before us was not in vain. A form of immortality achieved by those who brought us the facts and findings we now take for granted in our everyday lives. — Outlander

What a way of putting it. Yet, the association that you led me to make was almost with 'vanity' and 'prestige'. Am I associating this correctly?

I think the expectations within a family play a big role in how education is experienced as the training outside of that realm. Having to give an adequate account of yourself is important, both when you can and cannot. For some, it is a complete revolt from family where that account begins. My coming of age was more fortunate.

I became attracted to the idea of the liberal arts as a way to become more capable for my own purposes. The study involved finding out the idea was entangled with so many other people and their purposes.

But I also had an education quite separate from the practices of scholarship when I learned a number of the building trades. My schooling was some preparation for that, but it would have all died out if it was not part of the actual learning while working. This process did involve learning some skills in a formal way but they, too, were part of a continued practice over many decades.

Those different origins in my learning have many differences but the critical element of agency is central to both. As Kierkegaard said, freedom is the ability to do something.

Another intersection of the different processes relates to Le Rochefoucauld saying: "Education is a second self-love."

The welding together of pleasure and pain etches a deep mark into the wax in both cases.

I wanted to follow up on something that I thought about. Again, most of my posts are in a 'ask and tell' manner for everyone's enjoyment. I also moderate myself instead of nit-picking posts.

So, this topic began in a specific way. I had thought about starting a thread about the purpose of psychology in society; but, the same topic could have been generalized to physics or even engineering or the humanities. So, I thought the point was about pedagogy, and then again realized that the topic could just zoom out in scope to the meaning of education to society and the individual.

Due to these deliberations, I would like to rephrase the OP in terms of your ideas or conceptions about the meaning of education on a personal level and in terms of society?

Now, to present my own take on the matter of the meaning of education is that education is something which, until the right age is found to make a child or teenager happy. Yet, when adolescents transition (and this is the key part) towards adulthood, there seems to be a lot of friction in the expectations and thoughts about studying the right field at college. In Europe this process is smoothened out by the abundance of technical schools and apprenticeships if the student is a poor learner or just cannot get decent grades. Also, in Europe the amount of preparation for adult life is much easier to transition towards due to the role of the government in assisting financial needs and lack of payments, in terms of loans, for universities. In the US, Dewey really had a profound influence on pedagogy and faculty policies at the Ivy league universities. Then there's competition in the US educational system that seems to be much higher than anywhere else in the world. Yet, having studied both in Europe and the US, it really is harder to do well in a high ranking European university than in an Ivy league school. Which means what?

I'd appreciate any further thoughts on this matter, regarding the differences of EU and US university system and along with why do US students find it harder to find fulfillment and happiness in the US educational system rather than the EU system, which is much more technical than the US system? Does it really boil down to burdening a person with loans in the US, whereas Europe just spots the bill for you?

Another intersection of the different processes relates to Le Rochefoucauld saying: "Education is a second self-love."

The welding together of pleasure and pain etches a deep mark into the wax in both cases. — Paine

Could you elaborate on this intersection of processes? I'm not sure if I understand.

I understand Le Rochefoucauld to be saying that a narrative and a motive for acting for oneself is shaped by education. So, there is a "paying of dues" associated with both environments. And that sense of expenditure does play a part in self-image as well as defending one's place in the world.

What Le Rochefoucauld is also pointing out is that we love that element in ourselves.

I understand Le Rochefoucauld to be saying that a narrative and a motive for acting for oneself is shaped by education. So, there is a "paying of dues" associated with both environments. And that sense of expenditure does play a part in self-image as well as defending one's place in the world. — Paine

So, when does socialization and individualization start and end?

That question takes different shapes.

In the realm of strictly psychological models, theories of development range from the Vygotsky approach, where those elements are never completely separated, and the black hole of Lacan, where they never actually meet.

The question of where philosophy ends and psychology begins is either germane or not. It is not clear how the disagreements in that conversation relate to the disagreements amongst the self-identified psychologists. Nonetheless, it would be a stupid world if these endeavors did not touch upon the same reality.

I know, I am not much help, so far.

One way to look at education is as a democratic institution because it offers equality of opportunity -- rather than being stuck with the profession your parents have there's a system in place that, for better or worse, attempts to level the playing field.

I think that in our economies that post-secondary education ought to be considered something offered for everyone -- we live in pretty advanced economies, and the more people who are knowledgeable the better we'll be able to figure out the problems that face us.

But that's not as fun as making money, so the democratic role in the US is restricted to secondary education, with some government programs in place to assist in attending post-secondary (and a somewhat attempted ameliorations for excessive debt, though not everyone agrees with even what's been done)

So the point to go is pretty much up to you: If you have a way to make money that's stable which does not require an education then there's no financial reason to go, though you may want to for personal reasons -- but, that's a pretty pricey ticket for personal reasons if you don't have the money up front.

I think it's a good bet, though, if you finish it. Also, while the above points out the democratic and financial reason for education, for me I'd say it's because you gain knowledge, it widens your perspective, you learn better ways to think, and these are valuable unto themselves as well as to society if you are willing and able so that's why I went and don't regret it (though I did have an eye on a career when I did go, too).

I think it's a good bet, though, if you finish it. Also, while the above points out the democratic and financial reason for education, for me I'd say it's because you gain knowledge, it widens your perspective, you learn better ways to think, and these are valuable unto themselves as well as to society if you are willing and able so that's why I went and don't regret it (though I did have an eye on a career when I did go, too). — Moliere

Thanks for posting. What I would like to politely point out is the focus on IT in this century. The people who built Google, were really awesome people for democratizing knowledge. This isn't my first discussion on this forum about the merits of a higher education and in previous threads there was some thematic discussion of online education, like MOOCs. Nowadays, some articles of Google's "The Economist", state that the next journey for education is with Artificial Intelligence. So, what are your thoughts about education that even someone in poverty can afford by simply going through an online course or possibly in the future looking into AI providing some quality courses by some venture capitalist or entrepreneur via the internet?

So, what are your thoughts about education that even someone in poverty can afford by simply going through an online course or possibly in the future looking into AI providing some quality courses by some venture capitalist or entrepreneur via the internet? — Shawn

As boring as my original advice. ;)

I know nothing about AI venture capitalist future learning in libraries, but I know that you can't really put a price on knowledge and that going to school has benefits.

I figure if someone is motivated enough to teach themselves through the internet then they're not the person that needed all these motivations in place, like employment or grades, to learn something.

And really it just depends on too much to give any general answer besides "Go to school, it's good for your mind!"

then there was something odious for me to just get a degree and start working somewhere — Shawn

That's basically what I did. I didn't have a 5-year plan when I started college. I finished school and took a job with VISTA (now called Americorps). VISTA was a great follow-on to college.

Degrees help one get jobs, or did back in the late 60s, early 70s. The degrees launched me. Once you get the job there is a period (sometimes) of unofficial on-the-job training. If you are reasonably clever, you find a job you can actually do.

Was college worth anything beside getting a job? Absolutely.

I have a learned a lot more since leaving college than I learned while there, but college served as an orientation to what to learn and how to learn. I'm 77 now and still learning.

I would like to ask the interlocuter, what role does education have in society and perhaps more importantly in our daily lives? — Shawn

A first issue is that there is no problem in the world that the government won't make worse.

Education has largely stopped teaching and has switched to mostly indoctrinating.

Just like the true purpose of education in the Soviet Union was to firmly stomp the manifesto of the communist party into the minds of young impressionable children, nowadays, education in the West has its own not-so-hidden woke agenda.

The education system is based on the false idea that society has the right to impose its views -- no matter how misguided -- onto someone else's children. The most visible second-order consequence of that approach is that fewer and fewer people actually want children. The education system is indeed self-defeating. The longer the system lasts, the more destructive the effect that it has on the nuclear family, on the social fabric, on society, and therefore the stronger the tendency for society to collapse.

There is obviously no need to do anything about a problem that is clearly solving itself. I have children but not in the West. Therefore, my own recommendation is to let it rot.

definitely disagree that 'all heterogenous societies are chaotic.'... — Shawn

Can you name one?

I agree with your view. I had a more scholarly beginning, but my actual work life has benefited from spending that time learning how to learn.

That influence also helped me be a better teacher on the job. My problems with particular practices are very similar to other people's problems. That helps counter the natural tendency to be an asshole.