• MoK
    1.3k
    This argument is long and dense so please bear with me. Your criticisms and input as always are welcome.

    P1) Physical and experience exist and they are subject to change
    P2) Experience is due to the existence of physical and the change in the state of physical is due to the existence of an experience
    C1) Therefore, physical and experience cannot be the cause of their own change because of overdetermination (from P1 and P2)
    P3) The experience is not a substance so it cannot be the cause of physical
    C2) Therefore, there must exist a substance so-called the Mind with the ability to cause physical (from P1, C1, and P3)
    P4) Any change in physical at least requires two states of physical
    P5) These states of physical are however related
    C3) Therefore, the Mind must have the ability to experience physical (from P4 and P5)
    C4) Therefore, the Mind is a substance with the ability to experience and cause physical (from C2 and C3)

    Up to here, I establish that the Mind is a substance with the ability to experience and cause physical. Now let's focus on the subjective time.

    P1) The subjective time exists and changes since there is a change in physical
    P2) Any change requires the subjective time
    C1) Therefore, we are dealing with an infinite regress since the subjective time is required to allow a change in the subjective time (from P1 and P2)
    C2) Therefore, the Mind experiences and causes the subjective time (so subjective time is a substance too)

    Up to here, I establish that the Mind is a substance with the ability to experience and cause physical and the subjective time. Now let's focus on motion as a type of change in physical and the subjective time.

    P1) Physical are subject to changes such as motion (by motion here I mean a move of physical from one point in space to another point)
    C1) Therefore, the Mind is Omnipresent in space since that is the Mind that causes motion in physical
    P2) The subjective time is subject to changes such as motion (by motion here I mean a move of the subjective time from one point in the objective time to another point where the objective time has a beginning but no end and it is not subject to change)
    C2) Therefore, the Mind is Omnipresent in the objective time since that is the Mind that causes motion in the subjective time
    C3) Therefore, the Mind exists in the spacetime (from C1 and C2)
    C4) Therefore, the Mind is changeless (by Occam's razor, one can assign properties to the Mind that change in spacetime but that is not necessary)
    C5) Therefore, the Mind is the uncaused cause (by Occam's razor, one can assume that another substance sustains the Mind but that is not necessary)
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    This argument is long and dense so please bear with me.MoK

    It's a Hegelian argument, what do you expect? : )

    At least you're not making a Schellingian argument, those are even worse! : D
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Your criticisms and input as always are welcome.MoK

    There's nothing to criticize or input, .
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    P1) Physical and experience exist and they are subject to change
    P2) Experience is due to the existence of physical and the change in the state of physical is due to the existence of an experience
    C1) Therefore, physical and experience cannot be the cause of their own change because of overdetermination (from P1 and P2)
    P3) The experience is not a substance so it cannot be the cause of physical
    C2) Therefore, there must exist a substance so-called the Mind with the ability to cause physical (from P1, C1, and P3)
    P4) Any change in physical at least requires two states of physical
    P5) These states of physical are however related
    C3) Therefore, the Mind must have the ability to experience physical (from P4 and P5)
    C4) Therefore, the Mind is a substance with the ability to experience and cause physical (from C2 and C3)
    MoK

    This argument has a Hegelian structure:

    P1) First Thesis
    P2) First anti-Thesis
    C1) Therefore, First Synthesis (from P1 and P2) = Second Thesis
    P3) Second anti-Thesis
    C2) Therefore, Second Synthesis (from P1, C1, and P3) = Third Thesis
    P4) Third anti-Thesis (1st New Thesis)
    P5) First analysis (1st New anti-Thesis)
    C3) Therefore, 1st New Synthesis (from P4 and P5) = Fourth Thesis
    C4) Therefore, Third Synthesis (from C2 and C3).
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Up to here, I establish that the Mind is a substance with the ability to experience and cause physical. Now let's focus on the subjective time.

    P1) The subjective time exists and changes since there is a change in physical
    P2) Any change requires the subjective time
    C1) Therefore, we are dealing with an infinite regress since the subjective time is required to allow a change in the subjective time (from P1 and P2)
    C2) Therefore, the Mind experiences and causes the subjective time (so subjective time is a substance too)
    MoK

    Suggestion: analysis is the anti-Thesis of synthesis. That's what makes it dialectical, and hence, Hegelian.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Up to here, I establish that the Mind is a substance with the ability to experience and cause physical and the subjective time. Now let's focus on motion as a type of change in physical and the subjective time.

    P1) Physical are subject to changes such as motion (by motion here I mean a move of physical from one point in space to another point)
    C1) Therefore, the Mind is Omnipresent in space since that is the Mind that causes motion in physical
    P2) The subjective time is subject to changes such as motion (by motion here I mean a move of the subjective time from one point in the objective time to another point where the objective time has a beginning but no end and it is not subject to change)
    C2) Therefore, the Mind is Omnipresent in the objective time since that is the Mind that causes motion in the subjective time
    C3) Therefore, the Mind exists in the spacetime (from C1 and C2)
    C4) Therefore, the Mind is changeless (by Occam's razor, one can assign properties to the Mind that change in spacetime but that is not necessary)
    C5) Therefore, the Mind is the uncaused cause (by Occam's razor, one can assume that another substance sustains the Mind but that is not necessary)
    MoK

    This part is a summary of the old debate between idealism and materialism.
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    P2) Experience is due to the existence of physical and the change in the state of physical is due to the existence of an experienceMoK

    Why think that all physical changes are due to experience? Consider the possibility that astronomers today observe a supernova which occurred a billion years ago in a distant galaxy. What role did experience play in causing the supernova?
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    That's Meillassoux's "Problem of the arche-Fossil", if it can be called that. It's more like a classical dilemma, I would say. Not really a "problem" in the technical sense of the term.

    Poetically speaking, an arche-fossil (i.e., a supernova which occurred a billion years ago in a distant galaxy) is an example of what may be more accurately described as a "hyper-Fossil". It is the fossil of all fossils, the fossil to end all fossils. So to speak, of course.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    The problem with the very concept of a fossil, of course, when it is used in that poetic way, is that it loses its literal meaning. And its literal meaning is just as problematic as its figurative, poetic meaning. Think of the mammoth bones that the ancient Greeks discovered in caves. They though they were cyclops bones.
  • MoK
    1.3k
    It's a Hegelian argument, what do you expect? : )Arcane Sandwich
    Oh, I didn't know that!
  • MoK
    1.3k
    There's nothing to criticize or inputArcane Sandwich
    Thanks for your confirmation.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    It's a Hegelian argument, what do you expect? : ) — Arcane Sandwich

    Oh, I didn't know that!
    MoK

    Of course you did, Young Dragon : )

    There's nothing to criticize or input — Arcane Sandwich

    Thanks for your confirmation.
    MoK

    No problem, mate. :up:
    I'm just as seaworthy as you. :death:
    Yet I'm not identical to you : )
  • MoK
    1.3k
    This argument has a Hegelian structure:

    P1) First Thesis
    P2) First anti-Thesis
    C1) Therefore, First Synthesis (from P1 and P2) = Second Thesis
    P3) Second anti-Thesis
    C2) Therefore, Second Synthesis (from P1, C1, and P3) = Third Thesis
    P4) Third anti-Thesis (1st New Thesis)
    P5) First analysis (1st New anti-Thesis)
    C3) Therefore, 1st New Synthesis (from P4 and P5) = Fourth Thesis
    C4) Therefore, Third Synthesis (from C2 and C3).
    Arcane Sandwich
    Thanks for your input. I was not aware of this. I will read more on Hegel when I have time.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Thanks for your input. I was not aware of this.MoK

    Hmmm... do I believe you? : )
    Should I believe you? : D

    I will read more on Hegel when I have time.MoK

    Is that a promise?
    If so, is that a promise to me?
    Or to yourself?
  • MoK
    1.3k
    Suggestion: analysis is the anti-Thesis of synthesis. That's what makes it dialectical, and hence, Hegelian.Arcane Sandwich
    I don't understand what you mean here. Do you mind elaborating?
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Suggestion: analysis is the anti-Thesis of synthesis. That's what makes it dialectical, and hence, Hegelian. — Arcane Sandwich

    I don't understand what you mean here. Do you mind elaborating?
    MoK

    Not at all, I don't mind at all. Here you go:

    Affirmation: Synthesis.
    Negation: Analysis.
    Negation of the Negation: Affirmation of the Affirmation.

    The last one is the polemical one. ; )
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.6k
    Your criticisms and input as always are welcome.MoK

    P2) Experience is due to the existence of physical and the change in the state of physical is due to the existence of an experience

    When the subconscious physical neurological analysis completes, consciousness experiences the result, which experience becomes an input to the physical neurological, updating (changing) its state, qualia-wise, as well as already having an updated state from producing a result, then more analysis happens, and so forth.

    The physical also directly understands what goes into the experience, in its own terms, since it is what made it, which suffices, in case of there being no qualia experience global broadcast to it.

    C1) Therefore, physical and experience cannot be the cause of their own change because of overdetermination (from P1 and P2)

    Rather, each is the cause of the other, in turn, sequentially.

    P3) The experience is not a substance so it cannot be the cause of physical

    Conscious experience comes too late in the process to be causing anything directly, but, it seems that indirectly it could be used for future input to what subconscious analysis comes next, or it should simpler be that the subconscious analysis just keeps on going forward, for it depends on what the internal language of the brain is (such as if qualia are a kind of short-cut language).

    In either case, all the happenings would seem to be physical, although there is still the Hard Problem to figure out, yet we still know that the physical is always followed by the experiential of it, as if information always exists in those two ways, and so it is already a feat accomplished by the brain.
  • MoK
    1.3k
    This part is a summary of the old debate between idealism and materialism.Arcane Sandwich
    Here, I am arguing in favor of new substance dualism. Both materialism and idealism are sort of monism. I don't think that materialism is true because of a phenomenon so-called experience. Idealism also is not true because the ideas are coherent, the memory exists, etc.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Ok MoK, that sounds great to me. :up:
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Suggestion: analysis is the anti-Thesis of synthesis. That's what makes it dialectical, and hence, Hegelian. — Arcane Sandwich

    I don't understand what you mean here. Do you mind elaborating? — MoK


    Not at all, I don't mind at all. Here you go:

    Affirmation: Synthesis.
    Negation: Analysis.
    Negation of the Negation: Affirmation of the Affirmation.

    The last one is the polemical one. ; )
    Arcane Sandwich

    In other words, MoK:

    Analysis of Analysis = Synthesis of Synthesis
  • MoK
    1.3k
    Why think that all physical changes are due to experience?wonderer1
    Because I have a physical body and I also have experience. I am not saying that all changes are due to experience since there could be a type of physical that changes on its own. This change however goes unnoticed since otherwise the change requires experience.
  • MoK
    1.3k
    Hmmm... do I believe you? : )
    Should I believe you? : D
    Arcane Sandwich
    I only lie when my life is in danger! :)

    Is that a promise?
    If so, is that a promise to me?
    Or to yourself?
    Arcane Sandwich
    A promise to you and myself. Thanks for introducing Hegel to me.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Thanks for introducing Hegel to me.MoK

    I prefer Mario Bunge, but people don't like him : )
  • MoK
    1.3k
    Not at all, I don't mind at all. Here you go:

    Affirmation: Synthesis.
    Negation: Analysis.
    Negation of the Negation: Affirmation of the Affirmation.

    The last one is the polemical one. ; )
    Arcane Sandwich
    Thanks for your input. It is now necessary that I read more on Hegel.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    It is now necessary that I read more on Hegel.MoK

    Nah. You'll be fine. You're under no obligation to read Hegel, in any way, shape, or form.
  • MoK
    1.3k
    Nah. You'll be fine. You're under no obligation to read Hegel, in any way, shape, or form.Arcane Sandwich
    Ok, and thanks.
  • MoK
    1.3k
    I prefer Mario Bunge, but people don't like him : )Arcane Sandwich
    Oh, I see.
  • MoK
    1.3k
    When the subconscious physical neurological analysis completes, consciousness experiences the result, which experience becomes an input to the physical neurological, updating (changing) its state, qualia-wise, as well as already having an updated state from producing a result, then more analysis happens, and so forth.PoeticUniverse
    How that could be done without the Mind?

    The physical also directly understands what goes into the experience, in its own terms, since it is what made it, which suffices, in case of there being no qualia experience global broadcast to it.PoeticUniverse
    The physical cannot possibly understand what goes into the experience.

    Rather, each is the cause of the other, in turn, sequentially.PoeticUniverse
    Experience is due to matter and change in matter is due to experience. However, The experience is not the cause of change in the matter and vice versa.

    Conscious experience comes too late in the process to be causing anything directly, but, it seems that indirectly it could be used for future input to what subconscious analysis comes next, or it should simpler be that the subconscious analysis just keeps on going forward, for it depends on what the internal language of the brain is (such as if qualia are a kind of short-cut language).PoeticUniverse
    We need the conscious mind for learning without it no automatic task like riding a bicycle is possible. I also think the conscious mind is much faster than the subconscious mind.

    In either case, all the happenings would seem to be physical, although there is still the Hard Problem to figure out, yet we still know that the physical is always followed by the experiential of it, as if information always exists in those two ways, and so it is already a feat accomplished by the brain.PoeticUniverse
    There is no solution to the Hard Problem of consciousness. Matter lacks experience whether it is in the brain or a rock.
  • DifferentiatingEgg
    500
    Experience is due to the existence of physical and the change in the state of physical is due to the existence of an experienceMoK

    Huh...

    "Quidquid luce fuit, tenebris agit [What occurred in the light, goes on in the dark]: but the other way around, too."
1234511
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.

×
We use cookies and similar methods to recognize visitors and remember their preferences.