• fdrake
    7.1k
    Acts are often judged by moral philosophers to fall into two categories; permissible acts and obligatory acts. That which is permissible is that which is okay to do, like eating ice cream. That which is obligatory is that which one must do, like keep promises {all else held equal}. This framework makes no prima facie distinction between acts and omissions. The permissibility of eating ice cream is the same kind of permissibility of not eating ice cream, the obligation to keep your promises is the same type of obligation as the obligation not to commit arbitrary acts of cruelty. Despite that not eating ice cream, and not being cruel, concern acts untaken.

    While people are likely to agree that there are things you can do and things you must do, that classification is not granular enough to be lived by. Other categories may be suggested. A common one concerns going above and beyond, so called “supererogation”. This is an act which is praiseworthy, excellent, esteemed, but not obligatory. The canonical example, from Urmson’s “Saints and Heroes” (1958) is diving onto a grenade to save one’s comrades in a battle. The choice to do such a thing is exalted, and is called a supererogatory act.

    Nevertheless, in order for an act to count as supererogatory, it must be classified as a choice. If that same soldier was threatened, with the certain outcome, that his family would be shot if he did not sacrifice himself for the good of his fellows, his action would be seen as coerced in some sense. And that coercion, rightly, monstrous. Giving up all of one’s material wealth to a charity is another example, laudable if someone does it willingly, monstrous if they are compelled to do so at gunpoint. Regardless of how laudable the soldier or the saint’s actions are, the state of things which compels them to behave in that way consigns such sainthood to the dustbin of the tragic.

    What I want to consider in this discussion is precisely that sense of monstrosity. Applying an obligation to go above and beyond, requiring people to act in an exalted fashion. I will call a state of things which requires people to go above and beyond monstrous.

    I have not specified the scope of “state of things” intentionally, as the scope of moral evaluation simpliciter is as broad as all possible actions of collections of humans. The decision to commit a vengeful murder of a charity worker is an immoral one, whether that murder is attributed to a dictator, their firing squad, or the institutions which compel such acts.

    Moreover, in my prior discussion, I had construed a compulsion for someone to act in a supererogatory fashion in exclusively coercive terms, namely with the threat of violence. I think this assumption can be relaxed to a broader sense of compulsion. In that regard, an ideology which compels people toward acts of supererogation, to each person’s detriment, would also be monstrous. I will pause to consider that.

    The first thing to note is that the scope of moral evaluation concerns collections of moral agents and their properties – the political rule which forces the execution of a noble charity worker is as unjust as the act of execution. An ideology can be considered as a composite of such rules, both explicit and implicit. In that regard, if we would like to judge a political rule as placing requirements on people, we would then need to be able to judge an ideology as equally capable of placing such requirements.
    That then allows us to consider under what conditions an ideology could be considered monstrous, insofar as it places requirements on people to do the supererogatory. While the course of the previous discussion had particular agents’ acts construed as monstrous or not, it is difficult to say an ideology is culpable in the same manner that a moral agent would be for a monstrous act, simply because it is not an agent in the same sense that a human is. Can it count as a doer of evil if it isn’t a human?

    I believe this is a false question, while an ideology isn’t an agent, neither are political rules or laws, and we judge their moral value by the acts which they engender. A law which enables hiring discrimination will be considered unjust to the extent it allows people to act in accordance with its principles. I thus believe it’s appropriate to consider an ideology monstrous when its constitutive principles require acts of supererogation. A system of belief functioning as a gun to everyone’s head, compelling them to give all of their worldly possessions away, is monstrous in the same manner as any particular threat that functions the same way.

    It is then important to consider the nature of the compulsions that an ideology may place upon a person. The compulsion cannot be considered a literal gun to a head, as ideas cannot hold weapons. It must thus be a belief held in a manner that strongly constrains someone’s actions. While the psychological origins of such a belief are important to consider in any particular case, the nature of such a belief as a strong constrainer of someone’s actions is the operative principle that allows that belief’s containing ideology to be judged as monstrous.

    How strongly someone’s actions are constrained by the state of things is a continuum. A strong constraint on actions will be present when people can be reasonably and predominantly expected to fall in accord with the constraint. For this part of the discussion, it is granted that a person can practically choose to obey or disobey the constraint placed upon them, and they must be aware of the constraint. In that sense, a person can choose to disobey an order given at gunpoint, and then be shot. If they were unaware of the gun held to their head, they would not count as making a coerced choice in this sense, since they are simply not offered the choice to obey or disobey. On one end of the continuum are the strongest constraints – if you do not act in accordance with the principle, something will be ruined. This might be your death, the death of loved ones, the end of a civilization… On the other end, are mild inconveniences – your tap water might be a bit too warm to enjoy drinking for a day. In order for an ideology to serve as a compulsion, the threat its principles present need not be actualized, only the belief that the threatened action will occur is required.

    Generically ideologies are followed without the constant awareness of what violating their principles will engender. People believe that promises must be kept without specific knowledge of the result of breaking any particular promise. Someone can then be compelled to act in accordance with an ideology by its inherent normative force, rather than the threat of violating it. A conception of being required to follow a norm cannot terminate in awareness of an underlying specific threat that violating that norm would cause – generically we believe that following a principle is right, wrong, okay, justified, understandable etc. without awareness of precisely why and what the results are. We are thus compelled to act in the manner we do through a more nebulous sense of awareness of the ideologies we inhabit. While we are aware that bad things will happen if the vague principles of the society we live in are violated too much, we act in accordance with those rules without any specific threat being given. The sense of requirement placed upon agents by an ideology must then not terminate in awareness of any specific action, and more broadly it concerns an immersion and identification of an agent with the social milieu of that ideology.

    Most people follow most norms of the society they live in, and thus a strong constraint on people’s actions should be inferred. The nature of this strong constraint must therefore be different from the awareness of violating such a constraint yielding ruin and horror. The absence of awareness of a specific threat construes the strong constraints which explain our collective compliance to an implicit social order as rendering it practically impossible to behave otherwise. Which is not to say impossible to behave otherwise, but very unreasonable to expect from anyone given the state of things. If it becomes reasonable to expect people to violate constitutive norms of the ideology of their social milieu, that ideology {or its social milieu’s} days are numbered, as when people expect themselves to act in discord with a principle the principle is simply no longer collectively enacted or believed.
    The cohesion of a society, in a particular form, demands a regularity of collective action that places strong constraints on an individual’s imagination of, and desire to enact, ways to live otherwise. This is a form of practical impossibility - the practical impossibility of living otherwise saturates any society that is capable of sustaining itself long-term.

    While that speaks to practical impossibility of acting otherwise in the aggregate, that does not provide a measure of when someone’s actions are constrained by an impossibility of that sort. Someone will tend to be acting in this manner when it is difficult for them to imagine living in a style which is contrary to the state of things. Whether that is because of inherent logistical difficulties in what is imagined, the difficulties of imagining it, or incompetence on the part of the imaginer is irrelevant, all that matters is the impediment to imagine.

    Notably, what might be called our moral imagination is decoupled from considerations of practical possibility. Which is to say that it’s relatively easy to imagine how things might be better, how things might be worse, what is exalted or what is inconsiderate, regardless of how these things may be achieved, or whether they can be in the first place. The nebulous hope for “world peace” is a noble hope to have, even if it is a manifestation of the moral imagination. We aspire to the heights of our moral imagination, even when achieving those heights is practically impossible.

    The air of naivety that surrounds decontextualized hope, for “world peace” or “end world hunger”, occurs in part because it marks the decoupling of the moral imagination from the state of things. The state of things makes it prohibitively difficult to achieve the heights of moral imagination, and as was seen before, prohibitively difficult to imagine living in a manner which achieves those heights.

    The norms that enable the cohesion of society in its current form may be just or unjust. Challenging a particular one may unravel an institution – every suffragette and rebel slave acted in accordance with what is right for humanity as a whole, even if the conditions prior to their actions rendered it practically impossible for them to come to fruition. Indeed, the mark of such transformative collective acts is to make what is practically impossible become practically possible, and thus undermine the horrors inherent in the social fabric.

    Systemic issues that require unjust differentials of power totally saturate our societies and institutions. Every person will have realized that things can be better even if they don’t know how to go about achieving that. Or even if they believe it’s not practically possible that the world be set more to right. Our moral imaginations compel us to rise to the heights of our halos. To attempt to bring about the practically impossible when it is right to do so. A consistent failure to make the practically impossible practically possible marks the irrelevance of someone’s moral imagination to their life. That things can always be imagined better is an inherent feature of human life, and that there will be systemic issues an inherent feature of human societies. The distinction in operating principles between the world of our moral imaginations and the one we live in will exist so long as what is imagined is not real.

    The failure to make the practically impossible become possible is more than reasonable to expect. Our moral aspirations are typically marked by failure, we do not live in ways that will bring about the better world we imagine. While this is correct, appealing to the inherent mismatch of ideals with reality is a cop out, and serves as an explanation for any impermissible act consistent with the operative principles of a society that allows it. Which is to say, it exculpates any moral evil imaginable. A principle that exculpates any moral evil is, definitively, evil. But to act otherwise towards any systemic issue is to act contrary to the confines of the practically possible.

    Therein lies the rub, if one sacrifices one’s moral imagination against systemic injustice on the altar of practicality, one exculpates all evils. But if one believes that we are required not to forsake it, one believes in an ideology that requires the supererogatory of humans, and is thus monstrous.

    The perennial condition of humanity and our societies will embed the horrors of injustice in the operative principles of any society, and thus each person faces a choice between whether they allow themselves a way to exculpate arbitrary evil or commit themselves to the inherent monstrosity of human life. We face the choice between allowing devilry or requiring the angelic, and humanity falls off this tightrope of right action either way.
  • frank
    17.5k

    If we relieve a person of full responsibility, why not do the same for the ideology they followed? The poor ideology was shaped by this it that circumstance. Blame the circumstances. This opens up into blaming everything for everything.

    Ultimately, there's an opposition between understanding and judging. The more you understand, the harder it becomes to judge. The more you judge, the harder it becomes to understand. We forever swing between these poles, the extremes of which are meaningless.
  • DifferentiatingEgg
    586
    Ultimately, there's an opposition between understanding and judging. The more you understand, the harder it becomes to judge.frank

    That's an opposition between prejudice and understanding. A Judge is a Judge because they understand the diction of the law.

    not really sure what to make of your post other than I am glad that I don't live by such superfluous rigidity as you detail in your post. The way you detail life within it is very strange to me.
  • Deleted User
    0
    This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
  • fdrake
    7.1k
    The way you detail life within it is very strange to me.DifferentiatingEgg

    Why?
  • DifferentiatingEgg
    586
    Honestly, it's hard to detail. Something like "out of sight out of mind." Morality and immorality are merely soft limits that I consider only occasionally.

    Mostly because morality imposes immorality upon the human, the human which came before either. Morality details what part of YOU is utter shit that needs to be killed off.

    No part of me is trash, nor will any part of me be killed off for anyone other than me and my own purpose.

    Sure I have decisions I live by, but even then they're soft limiters...

    The highest and most powerful are always above the law and out of sight of the law. Just as the highest presentment of man always comes through some Crime or another. Because they are the people who assume rights to new values outside the norm of equality...

    We all break laws, some of us just don't reslly care about them to begin with... let the ones who are intimidated the law be intimidated. If I want to do something, I'll likely do it... except maybe things like acting on the urge to drive my car through a building...

    More or less, if I were a hacker I'd be a greyhat.
  • fdrake
    7.1k


    You're providing no reason for anyone else to care about what you're saying. Which speaks to a misunderstanding of how normativity and morality couple, rather than a rejection of morals as the norms as they are. If you can give me a reason to care about an island such as yourself, I will, though I would wonder, in that case, why such a singular being would need to share their perspective to begin with.
  • DifferentiatingEgg
    586
    See this is that rigidity I'm talking about... if not this then must be that...what is a criminal other than a man qilling to go into danger to get what they need?

    Your rigidity suggests that because I only consider what my life demands that my life demands only me...

    Logic collapses in on itself and is circular. Just as the selfless person is acting based off their own desirous needs, so too is the selfish person.

    I'm glad I know how to drive a straight line down a curved road.
  • fdrake
    7.1k


    You can call anyone rigid when they disagree with you. Absolutely pointless argument strategy. How're you going to re-evaluate all the values with this lacklustre display.
  • DifferentiatingEgg
    586
    It's not that you disagree with me lol... it's how you do.
  • DifferentiatingEgg
    586
    You're providing no reason for anyone else to care about what you're saying.fdrake

    In otherwords you need a reason to care...

    Same here, it's just not your reasons.

    And perhaps you care about certain things in a certain light because you accept the premise that part of what's in you is utter shit that needs repression and ignoring. And I reject it that premise.
  • fdrake
    7.1k
    In otherwords you need a reason to care...DifferentiatingEgg

    Yes. A reason to care, in the context of a philosophical discussion, is an argument.

    Morality and immorality are merely soft limits that I consider only occasionally.DifferentiatingEgg

    You expressed a personal preference here, without argument.

    Your rigidity suggests that because I only consider what my life demands that my life demands only me...DifferentiatingEgg

    And here. Only this time you called me rigid at the same time.

    If all you're interested in doing is stating your values and insulting me, kindly leave the marketplace ye overman, before the mall cops come.
  • DifferentiatingEgg
    586
    Morality and immorality are merely soft limits that I consider only occasionally.DifferentiatingEgg

    To kill a charity worker out of revenge may be immoral, doesn't mean it wasn't right...

    Like giving Socrates hemlock for corruption of the youth.

    Hard limits means all killing is wrong and people would be incapable of breaking the hard limit. Soft limits are bypassed with a certain regulation regarding when it's correct.

    People who pretend morality is a hard limiter are *rigid* because they're mechanical and predictable in action.

    There is always a time and place for the animal in man to run wild.
  • fdrake
    7.1k


    You're probably not used to arguing formally, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

    To kill a charity worker out of revenge may be immoral, doesn't mean it wasn't right...DifferentiatingEgg

    When you say something like this, you need to distinguish right from immoral. An analogy like this:

    Like giving Socrates hemlock for corruption of the youth.DifferentiatingEgg

    Doesn't cut it. All you've done in it is construe that giving Socrates hemlock is a consequence of a norm, which judged his conduct as wrong.

    Hard limits means all killing is wrong and people would be incapable of breaking the hard limitDifferentiatingEgg

    The first bit of your sentence "hard limits means all killing is wrong" makes some kind of sense, because it's very easy to find a defeater for any context invariant moral claim, eg "killing is wrong" might not speak to acts of self defence. However the latter statement "people would be incapable of breaking the hard limit", either refers to finding such a defeater - which makes sense - or says it's in principle impossible for a universally binding moral principle to be broken. In the latter case, that misunderstands what a norm is - you can either follow them or not, if you couldn't help but follow a norm then it's pointless to consider it a choice.

    The latter "choicelessness" is referenced in my OP.
  • DifferentiatingEgg
    586
    You're probably not used to arguing formally, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubtfdrake
    Very true. I don't even know what it means...
    When you say something like this, you need to distinguish right from immoral.fdrake

    Do you? Seems more like a tanget to get off track... If I want to murder a charity worker who happened to do something that ended up killing my family... but morality said they go free... guess what's going to happen?

    I will burn that persons world to the ground. And I'll feel good doing it. Because it will be the desired quality of what I want...

    Might has always made right...

    Whether it's the tyranny of masses or the tyrant.

    All morality is baked in through thousands of years of grotesque punishment...

    Capital Punishment and Lethal Injection are Okay after all...

    So if someone injects themself lethally into another person's life... ah only the State gets to decide for you... No. I solve my own problems without the need of a state...
  • fdrake
    7.1k
    Very true. I don't even know what it means...DifferentiatingEgg

    Alright. You take what someone has said and try to represent their argument in your own terms. You do so in a manner which tries to make the best of their argument, at the very least understand it in a manner your interlocutor might be able to see. That's very much like providing a bridge from your vantage point to theirs, through skilful exegesis of their work and your vantage point on it.

    Then you use that interpretation to criticise what someone has said.

    This often comes down to doing a lot of very fiddly disambiguation in terms and their scope of application. You might enjoy reading the essay I referenced in the OP, Heroes and Saints, for a very good example of it!
  • DifferentiatingEgg
    586

    I guess, my point is, the vast majority of who I am prefers not even "thinking" but rather "doing" ... the only reason I practice philosophy and logic is so when I have to think, I can out think others. I prefer not thinking though. I'm relatively immune to feeling shame and guilt.

    Perhaps I even missed the points of your discussion really. What I mostly got from reading your post, was that "Damn this guys lives by a ton of rules (that I don't)."

    For example when I sit down in a room, I don't observe things and think about them... I just observe things, dont read the text on em, don't care that its a book or a chair or a flower, I don't match nouns to things, I don't put everything in its place with its labels...

    The things I like all involve muscle memory to "think" to feel your way through something. Anything where I can leave my mind be at rest so it can be everywhere all at once...
  • Moliere
    5.8k
    This is a very well written contemplation. I loved reading it.

    I believe I'm sympathetic to its conclusions -- in philosopher terms it makes me think of Kierkegaard's tension between Abraham as a Knight of Faith or a moral monster. I get the same sort of feeling here between two bad choices, hence a dilemma or paradox.
  • Leontiskos
    4.7k
    This is a thoughtful and stimulating OP, @fdrake. :up:

    Other categories may be suggested. A common one concerns going above and beyond, so called “supererogation”.fdrake

    I often find myself saying on TPF, "I'm not convinced that there is any room for supererogation in your moral system."

    And that coercion, rightly, monstrous. Giving up all of one’s material wealth to a charity is another example, laudable if someone does it willingly, monstrous if they are compelled to do so at gunpoint.fdrake

    The wrinkle here is that you are shifting agents. Magnanimous giving is supererogatory for the person giving, whereas coerced giving is monstrous for the person coercing.

    Regardless of how laudable the soldier or the saint’s actions are, the state of things which compels them to behave in that way consigns such sainthood to the dustbin of the tragic.fdrake

    ...And when you phrase it in this way it presents as a single state of affairs with two different possible circumstances. The state of affairs is that he gives a large sum of money, and the two possible circumstances are 1) that he gives money freely and 2) that he gives money under duress. But on a classical view such as Aristotle's these are two starkly different actions, not one action with two possible accidental circumstances. More simply: what makes (1) supererogatory also makes (2) non-supererogatory.

    In that regard, an ideology which compels people toward acts of supererogation, to each person’s detriment, would also be monstrous.fdrake

    I agree that "supererogation" should not be coerced or compelled, but I also don't think the scare quotes can be omitted, because I don't think coerced or compelled acts are supererogatory.

    A strong constraint on actions will be present...fdrake

    Note that you have here shifted from supererogation to constraint, which are in fact two different concepts. I think this shift is important to canvass and assess, as it matters whether you are arguing against compelled supererogation or just compulsion per se. This relates to the point below about obligation vs. supererogation.

    Someone can then be compelled to act in accordance with an ideology by its inherent normative force, rather than the threat of violating it.fdrake

    I.e. One can act without consequentialist motivations.

    While this is correct, appealing to the inherent mismatch of ideals with reality is a cop out, and serves as an explanation for any impermissible act consistent with the operative principles of a society that allows it. Which is to say, it exculpates any moral evil imaginable.fdrake

    Sure, but aren't we ignoring the other side of the coin? Namely that appealing to the inherent mismatch of ideals with reality is a cop out, and serves as an explanation for any act inconsistent with the operative principles of a society that disallows it? As in, there was a downside to the French Revolution, and I'm not convinced your construal is able to come to terms with that downside. The promotion of an ideal is not unobjectionably good, given both that there is moral worth to the stability of the status quo, and that false ideals are very often promoted.

    Therein lies the rub, if one sacrifices one’s moral imagination against systemic injustice on the altar of practicality, one exculpates all evils. But if one believes that we are required not to forsake it, one believes in an ideology that requires the supererogatory of humans, and is thus monstrous.fdrake

    But your critique of the supererogatory was grounded in coercion and compulsion. I realize you tried to argue that compulsion can be subtle, but if subtle compulsion is monstrous, and every moral belief involves subtle compulsion, then morality is itself monstrous. Ergo: those who think humans should try to be better are monstrous, which strikes me as absurd. Indeed, I believe insufficient attention has been paid to the difference between the obligatory and the supererogatory, given that your critique would apparently make the obligatory equally monstrous.

    The crux here may be the question of whether every form of pressure is a form of illicit compulsion, including argument and persuasion, and even expressed normative beliefs. Obviously this is a central concern for individualistic societies.


    What I would suggest is missing here is Solzhenitsyn's point:

    The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. — The Gulag Archipelago

    When the problem is construed as "My moral imagination vs. systemic injustice," one quickly forgets that the line between good and evil is more complicated than that. But feel free to redirect my focus if I am not honing in on the nub you are interested in.
  • Moliere
    5.8k
    But your critique of the supererogatory was grounded in coercion and compulsion. I realize you tried to argue that compulsion can be subtle, but if subtle compulsion is monstrous, and every moral belief involves subtle compulsion, then morality is itself monstrous.Leontiskos

    Isn't that part of the tension in the OP?

    I'm thinking of the teleological suspension of the ethical here...

    Ergo: those who think humans should try to be better are monstrous, which strikes me as absurd.Leontiskos

    And yet it may be true.
  • Leontiskos
    4.7k
    Isn't that part of the tension in the OP?Moliere

    As I understand it the OP wants to critique (compelled) supererogation without critiquing obligation. My point there was that I don't see how obligation doesn't fall under the same shadow as supererogation with respect to compulsion, given the argumentation.
  • Moliere
    5.8k
    :up: Cool. I'll let it sit there for now.
  • fdrake
    7.1k
    @Leontiskos -

    Isn't that part of the tension in the OP?Moliere

    Yes, that is what I was getting at.

    My point there was that I don't see how obligation doesn't fall under the same shadow as supererogation with respect to compulsion, given the argumentation.Leontiskos

    The rough idea I was playing with is as follows, there's a big asymmetry between obligation and supererogation. People are compelled to follow their obligations with a binding normative force, if they choose otherwise they choose wrong. People are not so compelled with super-erogation, if they choose not to dive on the grenade to save the squad they did something A-OK.

    The broader tension, which I tried to gesture toward with the latter half of the post, is that we seem to be that the state of things requires acts of supererogation to improve. We need to be saints sometimes to make a better world. And if we need to be saints sometimes, I've analogised that to compelling your squadmate to jump on the grenade.

    The supererogatory is a gateway to the horrifying state of things. We live in a world where no one can be a saint, but everyone needs to be. So, the tension goes, you can choose to compel others to jump on the grenade, or you can reject that we need to be saints sometimes. And if it was previously established that the only way things can improve is that if some people are saints sometimes... that combination means that everyone is fine to reject sainthood, even if it destroys our very moral fibre.

    The wrinkle here is that you are shifting agents. Magnanimous giving is supererogatory for the person giving, whereas coerced giving is monstrous for the person coercing.Leontiskos

    I don't believe I was shifting agents, I was describing an act as supererogatory. Treating supererogation as a modality on par with obligation and permissibility. In a similar manner I considered acts as saintly or exemplary, and not moral agents. The state of things which is monstrous, in that instance, is compelling an action that would otherwise be considered above and beyond the call of duty. Notably I am not intending to construe a specific agent as monstrous or supererogatory, or even just acts as monstrous or supererogatory, I'm trying to say that a broader state of things, which is largely placeholder term, can be considered monstrous when it forces supererogation on people for things to get better at all.

    If it's some kind of intuition pump for you, the background I'm drawing on to delimit the scope of ethical judgements is a heritage of philosophical pessimism, which tends to treat arbitrary things, paradigmatically existence itself, as the kind of thing which can fail or be wanting. I think this is relatively comprehensible, though I wouldn't want to stake my metaphysical career on it. "Things are shit", "Life sucks", perfectly cromulent everyday valuations. I'll trust the type of them is alright.

    The perspective I've adopted in the OP is also quite orthogonal to considering the excellent qualities of moral agents, it's very act focussed. Though, again notably, I've defended absolutely nothing in terms of the results of following ethical principles for a reason, or taking a particular meta-ethical stance towards those judgements - except construing things that resemble morals as having a mundane normative force, which you might not like if you're a divine command flavour of Aristotle fan.
  • Leontiskos
    4.7k
    Thanks, that is helpful in clarifying the OP.

    The broader tension, which I tried to gesture toward with the latter half of the post, is that we seem to be that the state of things requires acts of supererogation to improve.fdrake

    Okay, understood, but does it? Couldn't we also improve by better understanding our obligations, or by better realizing a capacity to fulfill them? Those forms of improvement seem to have little to do with supererogation. I think we have to bring in your idea of moral imagination:

    We aspire to the heights of our moral imagination, even when achieving those heights is practically impossible.fdrake

    Is moral imagination bound up with supererogation? Or with obligation? Or perhaps neither? What is the end that moral imagination conceives?

    The supererogatory is a gateway to the horrifying state of things. We live in a world where no one can be a saint, but everyone needs to be.fdrake

    Aren't you aiming at the paradox wherein the supererogatory is obligatory? That we are obliged to improve and supererogation is necessary in order to improve; therefore the supererogatory is obligatory?

    What I was trying to say above is that I see a contradiction, not a paradox. If I were able to see a very clear case for why each side of the contradiction must be upheld, then perhaps I would be made to consider it a paradox.

    I don't believe I was shifting agents, I was describing an act as supererogatory. Treating supererogation as a modality on par with obligation and permissibility. In a similar manner I considered acts as saintly or exemplary, and not moral agents. The state of things which is monstrous, in that instance, is compelling an action that would otherwise be considered above and beyond the call of duty. Notably I am not intending to construe a specific agent as monstrous or supererogatory, or even just acts as monstrous or supererogatory, I'm trying to say that a broader state of things, which is largely placeholder term, can be considered monstrous when it forces supererogation on people for things to get better at all.fdrake

    When I said that you were shifting agents, I was not imagining that you were not talking about acts. Acts are the acts of an agent, after all.

    So what is the object of supererogation? And what is the object of monstrosity? An agent? An act? A broader state of things? Namely, do they have the same genus of object?

    And what is a monstrosity after all? Is it anything more than a matter of constraining or compelling?

    If it's some kind of intuition pump for you, the background I'm drawing on to delimit the scope of ethical judgements is a heritage of philosophical pessimism, which tends to treat arbitrary things, paradigmatically existence itself, as the kind of thing which can fail or be wanting. I think this is relatively comprehensible, though I wouldn't want to stake my metaphysical career on it. "Things are shit", "Life sucks", perfectly cromulent everyday valuations. I'll trust the type of them is alright.fdrake

    And I would surely disagree with the attribution of moral properties to non-moral realities, but you don't press this angle very hard in the OP, and it is but one piece of a sprawling OP.

    At a more general level, while I recognize that modern conceptions of morality produce highly paradoxical tensions, I think this is due to flaws in the moral conceptions themselves. I grant that morality involves tension, but not contradictions.

    I apologize if this is a crude strawman, but suppose someone said <We are obliged to be better as a species; we can only become better by compelling supererogation; therefore we are obliged to compel supererogation (and thus we are abandoned to monstrosity)>. I'd say that holes can be picked in either premise quite easily. I'm the ethics teacher who would say, "Oh? Your argument concludes that compelled supererogation is obligatory? You've probably made a mistake somewhere in the argument. Can you show me the steps that got you to the conclusion?"

    which you might not like if you're a divine command flavour of Aristotle fan.fdrake

    On the contrary, I find modern morality excessively moral; excessively scrupulous. I don't think you find that extreme in traditional moral approaches, whether religious or philosophical. The organic approaches do not have such sharp edges. For example: you sin, you recognize that you sinned, you go to confession, you make reparation, and you simply move on with your life. I think there is plenty of meta-ethics in the OP, such as the presupposition that "improvement" justifies compelled supererogation. I don't find that extreme presupposition in traditional approaches.

    ---

    Edit:

    We face the choice between allowing devilry or requiring the angelic, and humanity falls off this tightrope of right action either way.fdrake

    Is that a real dilemma or a faux dilemma? Is every moral philosopher ultimately either proposing that we allow devilry or else that we require the super-human?
  • Fire Ologist
    1.3k
    Can it count as a doer of evil if it isn’t a human?fdrake

    No, and that is an important fulcrum for all ethics. An evil ideology is only as evil as the acts and the actors that support that ideology.

    I believe this is a false question, while an ideology isn’t an agent, neither are political rules or laws, and we judge their moral value by the acts which they engender. A law which enables hiring discrimination will be considered unjust to the extent it allows people to act in accordance with its principles.fdrake

    I think it’s a good question because “we judge their moral value by the acts.”

    A system of belief functioning as a gun to everyone’s head, compelling them to give all of their worldly possessions away, is monstrous in the same manner as any particular threat that functions the same way.fdrake

    I give us actors more credit. An ideology to the head is a powerful thing, but then, a gun would still overpower most people to betray that same ideology, most people, that is, who would succumb to an ideology in the first place.

    And the fact that other people might profess their ideology despite some threatening to shoot them in their head shows both the greater power of ideology, and/ or the greater power of the free agent. It is the free agent that is compelling oneself that is the greatest power and really the first instance of something to judge morally.

    And on the other hand, an ideology can be seen all the way through without compelling any action besides criticism.

    if one sacrifices one’s moral imagination against systemic injustice on the altar of practicality, one exculpates all evils. But if one believes that we are required not to forsake it, one believes in an ideology that requires the supererogatory of humans, and is thus monstrous.fdrake

    Damned if we do for sacrificial practicality, and damned if we do for non-sacrificial ideology.

    We face the choice between allowing devilry or requiring the angelic, and humanity falls off this tightrope of right action either way.fdrake

    Right, but you don’t see there are other ways? Can’t there be ideologies that promote freedom, without any coercion? Maybe that’s not an ideology anymore, if it leaves space for free choice? So then, is it possible to live ideology-free?
  • Leontiskos
    4.7k
    Can it count as a doer of evil if it isn’t a human?fdrake

    It can count as (natural) evil, but it can't count as a doer. So when you go on to say that an ideology isn't an agent, you are simultaneously saying that it isn't a doer, and hence is not a doer of evil.

    We could say that rocks are evil insofar as rocks can kill people, either via moral agents or apart from them. But a law or an ideology really isn't like a rock. In that case we can prescind from the agency of the people who fashioned or uphold the law or ideology, but we can't pretend that the agency doesn't exist at all.

    Something which "requires acts of supererogation" must be an agent (or a "doer"). This is because in order to require an act of supererogation one must understand what is obligatory and then require an act that is not obligatory. So a law could require supererogation via the agents who create it,
    *
    (or more precisely, legislators could require supererogation via a law)
    but a rock cannot require supererogation.** Or consider something that requires one to give all their earthly possessions away, namely death. Death is not requiring a supererogatory act, even though it does require us to give all our possessions away, and the reason it does not require a supererogatory act is because it possesses no agency. Someone can meet their death in a supererogatory way, but death does not require supererogation in requiring one to yield up all their possessions. At best the natural reality of death predisposes us to supererogatory acts, but does not require them.

    A pure passion is never supererogatory, because "in order for an act to count as supererogatory, it must be classified as a choice," and (pure) passions are merely things that we suffer, things that happen to us. So when you claim that some reality without agency requires acts of supererogation, you seem to err twice, both in thinking that something without knowledge can require supererogatory acts, and in thinking that because someone undergoes a passion—say, of losing all their possessions—they have therefore performed an act, and even a supererogatory act, namely the act of giving up all their possessions. One can lose without giving up.

    Nevertheless, I agree that it is a "monstrosity" when someone requires as due what is in fact supererogatory. But it is not an inevitability. In the case you reference we should simply remind them that we are not obliged to "improve things," and certainly not according to their criteria. The same can be said to ourselves. When the day is done and it is time for sleep, even the atheist can say, "I am not God. It does not all depend on me."

    ** And in a more precise sense, coerced supererogation is not supererogatory, as noted above. So in the end even things which can implore acts of supererogation cannot require or demand them.
  • Pantagruel
    3.5k
    By and large, people who perform supererogatory acts do not do so because ideologically compelled, but from a deep, personal commitment to universal values. So attempting to cast the supererogatory as a kind of duty or compulsion seems inaccurate.
  • fdrake
    7.1k
    By and large, people who perform supererogatory acts do not do so because ideologically compelled, but from a deep, personal commitment to universal values.Pantagruel

    Yes, they are saints who want to bring about a better world.

    So attempting to cast the supererogatory as a kind of duty or compulsion seems inaccurate.

    The rub I was pointing at is that such actions are necessary to bring it about.
  • Pantagruel
    3.5k
    The rub I was pointing at is that such actions are necessary to bring it about.fdrake

    I think you could see "duty" as the moral floor, below which we should not sink, whereas the supererogatory is the moral ceiling, towards which we aspire. They are exemplary actions, by definition. People do not have to be exemplary. But they can be. They have that capability.
  • fdrake
    7.1k
    People do not have to be exemplary.Pantagruel

    Alright. Do you imagine that the world would become a better place without some people behaving in an exemplary fashion?
  • Pantagruel
    3.5k
    I would say it is constitutive of the nature of morality that it evolves, a la Jung (Answer to Job) and Kierkegaard (Fear and Trembling). The exemplary which is effected can eventually become the new standard. Some people need to actually see what is possible before they are willing to entertain it. Pace Kierkegaard's "knight of faith," although I would tend to apply a secular-moral gloss. Faith doesn't have to be faith in god; it could be faith in truth, or reason, or good.
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.

×
We use cookies and similar methods to recognize visitors and remember their preferences.