Ultimately, there's an opposition between understanding and judging. The more you understand, the harder it becomes to judge. — frank
You're providing no reason for anyone else to care about what you're saying. — fdrake
In otherwords you need a reason to care... — DifferentiatingEgg
Morality and immorality are merely soft limits that I consider only occasionally. — DifferentiatingEgg
Your rigidity suggests that because I only consider what my life demands that my life demands only me... — DifferentiatingEgg
Morality and immorality are merely soft limits that I consider only occasionally. — DifferentiatingEgg
To kill a charity worker out of revenge may be immoral, doesn't mean it wasn't right... — DifferentiatingEgg
Like giving Socrates hemlock for corruption of the youth. — DifferentiatingEgg
Hard limits means all killing is wrong and people would be incapable of breaking the hard limit — DifferentiatingEgg
You're probably not used to arguing formally, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt — fdrake
Very true. I don't even know what it means...
When you say something like this, you need to distinguish right from immoral. — fdrake
Very true. I don't even know what it means... — DifferentiatingEgg
Other categories may be suggested. A common one concerns going above and beyond, so called “supererogation”. — fdrake
And that coercion, rightly, monstrous. Giving up all of one’s material wealth to a charity is another example, laudable if someone does it willingly, monstrous if they are compelled to do so at gunpoint. — fdrake
Regardless of how laudable the soldier or the saint’s actions are, the state of things which compels them to behave in that way consigns such sainthood to the dustbin of the tragic. — fdrake
In that regard, an ideology which compels people toward acts of supererogation, to each person’s detriment, would also be monstrous. — fdrake
A strong constraint on actions will be present... — fdrake
Someone can then be compelled to act in accordance with an ideology by its inherent normative force, rather than the threat of violating it. — fdrake
While this is correct, appealing to the inherent mismatch of ideals with reality is a cop out, and serves as an explanation for any impermissible act consistent with the operative principles of a society that allows it. Which is to say, it exculpates any moral evil imaginable. — fdrake
Therein lies the rub, if one sacrifices one’s moral imagination against systemic injustice on the altar of practicality, one exculpates all evils. But if one believes that we are required not to forsake it, one believes in an ideology that requires the supererogatory of humans, and is thus monstrous. — fdrake
The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. — The Gulag Archipelago
But your critique of the supererogatory was grounded in coercion and compulsion. I realize you tried to argue that compulsion can be subtle, but if subtle compulsion is monstrous, and every moral belief involves subtle compulsion, then morality is itself monstrous. — Leontiskos
Ergo: those who think humans should try to be better are monstrous, which strikes me as absurd. — Leontiskos
Isn't that part of the tension in the OP? — Moliere
Isn't that part of the tension in the OP? — Moliere
My point there was that I don't see how obligation doesn't fall under the same shadow as supererogation with respect to compulsion, given the argumentation. — Leontiskos
The wrinkle here is that you are shifting agents. Magnanimous giving is supererogatory for the person giving, whereas coerced giving is monstrous for the person coercing. — Leontiskos
The broader tension, which I tried to gesture toward with the latter half of the post, is that we seem to be that the state of things requires acts of supererogation to improve. — fdrake
We aspire to the heights of our moral imagination, even when achieving those heights is practically impossible. — fdrake
The supererogatory is a gateway to the horrifying state of things. We live in a world where no one can be a saint, but everyone needs to be. — fdrake
I don't believe I was shifting agents, I was describing an act as supererogatory. Treating supererogation as a modality on par with obligation and permissibility. In a similar manner I considered acts as saintly or exemplary, and not moral agents. The state of things which is monstrous, in that instance, is compelling an action that would otherwise be considered above and beyond the call of duty. Notably I am not intending to construe a specific agent as monstrous or supererogatory, or even just acts as monstrous or supererogatory, I'm trying to say that a broader state of things, which is largely placeholder term, can be considered monstrous when it forces supererogation on people for things to get better at all. — fdrake
If it's some kind of intuition pump for you, the background I'm drawing on to delimit the scope of ethical judgements is a heritage of philosophical pessimism, which tends to treat arbitrary things, paradigmatically existence itself, as the kind of thing which can fail or be wanting. I think this is relatively comprehensible, though I wouldn't want to stake my metaphysical career on it. "Things are shit", "Life sucks", perfectly cromulent everyday valuations. I'll trust the type of them is alright. — fdrake
which you might not like if you're a divine command flavour of Aristotle fan. — fdrake
We face the choice between allowing devilry or requiring the angelic, and humanity falls off this tightrope of right action either way. — fdrake
Can it count as a doer of evil if it isn’t a human? — fdrake
I believe this is a false question, while an ideology isn’t an agent, neither are political rules or laws, and we judge their moral value by the acts which they engender. A law which enables hiring discrimination will be considered unjust to the extent it allows people to act in accordance with its principles. — fdrake
A system of belief functioning as a gun to everyone’s head, compelling them to give all of their worldly possessions away, is monstrous in the same manner as any particular threat that functions the same way. — fdrake
if one sacrifices one’s moral imagination against systemic injustice on the altar of practicality, one exculpates all evils. But if one believes that we are required not to forsake it, one believes in an ideology that requires the supererogatory of humans, and is thus monstrous. — fdrake
We face the choice between allowing devilry or requiring the angelic, and humanity falls off this tightrope of right action either way. — fdrake
Can it count as a doer of evil if it isn’t a human? — fdrake
By and large, people who perform supererogatory acts do not do so because ideologically compelled, but from a deep, personal commitment to universal values. — Pantagruel
So attempting to cast the supererogatory as a kind of duty or compulsion seems inaccurate.
The rub I was pointing at is that such actions are necessary to bring it about. — fdrake
People do not have to be exemplary. — Pantagruel
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