• Tobias
    1.1k
    Introduction

    This is an offshoot of the thread of the medieval moment by @Amity and with contributions from @Vera Mont, @unenlightened, @DifferentiatingEgg and @Tzeentch among others. As I am late to the party and want to address a slightly different topic I started a new thread. The thread can be read without reading all the pages from the one mentioned above.

    I take as a point of departure three assumptions, namely: that there is a 'crisis', a problematic and grave moment in time in which old certainties falter and new bonds of solidarity are created.
    The second assumption is that there is a connection between the recent success of the far right and the emergence of a 'manosphere' and 'mysogynistic' tendencies. The third assumption is that both the emergence of misogyny and the resurgence of the far right in politics are reactionary, a form of conservatism that yearns for a life that was simple, straight forward and with clearly articulated power relations with men 'on top'.

    However, I think the analyses so far provided are usually too one sided, not only in the threads here, but also in general. The tacit assumption that is usually made, is that it is a reaction of a powerful group, men, that would like to solidify its privileges and uses the same means of oppression that it usually uses to oppress women and other minorities.

    I feel it is one sided because I feel it is not altogether clear who the oppressed is and what the power dynamics is that the far right is reacting too. Instead I feel there is a 'dialectics of oppression' at work in which masculinity is in one sense the oppressor and in another sense oppressed and femininity is in one sense the oppressed and in another sense the oppressor. Men and women here taken as broad categories, as will be explained later. Identifying this dialectic allows for an analysis of the current moment of crisis as a reaction to a certain problematic, which is quite singular in the history of Western (or global North) civilisation and that is the emergence of the problem of 'men'. Masculinity as the epitome of the embodiment of traditional values has become a problem 'in itself' but also 'for itself'. In itself means that masculinity has become seen as 'objectively' problematic, especially by women and people on the progressive side of the spectrum. That masculinity has become a problem 'for itself' means that it has become a problem for society what 'masculinity' actually is and what its function is, its unclear to both men and women, leading to mixed signals.
    That problematic emergence leads to a variety of responses, one is the repression of masculinity and another is an attempt to reassert dominance.

    Masculinity and femininity

    With these kind of threads, definition is important. What do we mean by masculinity and femininity? I think in the previous thread it was left implicit. Here I take a broad and theoretical view of masculinity and femininity, derived from the sociologist Hofstede. He ranked societies as feminine and masculine based on a number of characteristics. One caveat I make: what I am doing here is rather rough. One could go much deeper into Hofstede's work, but so doing would require me to write an academic article. That is not my point here. My point is to present a thesis and see if it is helpful to understand the current crisis and rising of the far right.

    Hofstede states that: “Masculinity stands for a society in which social gender roles are clearly distinct: Men are supposed to be assertive, tough, and focused on material success; women are supposed to be more modest, tender, and concerned with the quality of life.”
    “Femininity stands for a society in which social gender roles overlap: Both men and women are supposed to be modest, tender, and concerned with the quality of life.”

    From Hofstede (2001), Culture’s Consequences, 2nd ed. p 297, and I have it from: https://www.andrews.edu/~tidwell/bsad560/HofstedeMasculinity.html

    The same website provides a handy table.

    values Masculine Feminine

    social norms
    ego oriented / relationship oriented
    money and things are important / quality of life and people are important
    live in order to work / work in order to live

    politics and economics
    economic growth high priority / environment protection high priority
    conflict solved through force / conflict solved through negotiation

    religion
    most important in life / less important in life
    Only men can be priests / both men and women as priests

    work
    larger gender wage gap / smaller gender wage gap
    fewer women in management / more women in management
    preference for higher pay / preference for fewer working hours


    family and school
    traditional family structure / flexible family structure
    girls cry, boys don’t; boys fight, girls don’t / both boys and girls cry; neither fight
    failing is a disaster / failing a minor accident

    While crude, I will use this table to roughly divide between masculine and feminine values. the terms feminine and masculine values will be used as shorthand for values and perhaps virtues and vices that have been traditionally ascribed to and associated with masculine and feminine identities. Thanks to @unenlightened for the definition which makes these terms much clearer.

    Masculinity oppressing and oppressed, masculinity a problem in itself

    The trump administration, but also far right groups share a lot of the values that are listed in the table as masculine. Conflicts are solved by force and the imagery employed does a lot to reinforce this image. The chain saw of Musk, the 'fight fight fight' of Trump. Religion and family structure are embraced, made visible in Trump holding a bible and the imaginary of the 'trad wife'. 'Drill baby drill' is emblematic for a storyline that pits economic growth versus environmental protection and clearly sides with the former. The list goes on but you get my drift. In this sense the power grab of the far right can be considered as the re-establishment of masculine values in the heart of government.

    I say re-establishment because while masculine values held sway over most if not all of history, they are going against the grain of much of our current scientifically informed age. They have lost ground rapidly since the 1960s. Environmental protection was unheard of before the 1960s, but is considered one of the most pertinent problems now among educated classes. Religion has lost its grip on society for a large part, especially again among the higher educated. Traditional structures bound up with religion have altered, again in large part among the higher educated. Roe versus Wade is but one aspect, but same sex marriage is another. Among political scientists an ego-oriented masculine command structure has been reframed as 'command and control' and is now considered for a large part obsolete, surpassed by a more relational networked structure of command. Moreover, society becomes increasingly intolerant and fearful of violence. There is more concern about police brutality, more attention for domestic violence, more attention to colonial violence of the past. The globalization of the economy requires more cultural senstivity, more relational and emotional intelligence and more attention for consensus and win-win policies on all levels of society. Now this picture is of course also one sided. There are some contradictory trends. The emphasis on shareholder value for companies for instance or the continued reverence of wealth and so on, but those were always there. The societal trends described above are new and they favor feminine values, especially among those highly educated and therefore usually more successful.

    Now if what is needed to be successful is shifting and become more related to feminine harmony than masculine dominance, we may expect those traits to be taught in schools and codified in law. At least in Europe we see both happening. Teaching become more egalitarian and more focused on cooperation and group work than on individual success. Of course individual success is still the norm, I am considering trends here. Laws on domestic violence, hate speech and insult have been tightened in Europe, the standard for rape has been lowered and consent becomes an explicit requirement.

    While feminine values are in ascendancy, so are the people who transmit these values. In Europe women make up the majority of the teaching workforce, accounting for 73% (3.8 million) of teachers employed in primary, lower secondary and upper secondary education in 2021, while men accounted for 27% (1.43 million) (Eurostat 5 Oct. 2023). In the 1950 primary school teachers were already predominantly female but secondary education teachers predominantly male. Now over the board, teaching became a female profession. Similarly judges in the Netherlands are currently 60% female (NJB.nl July 2024)from only 16% in 1985. While men continue to be highly overrepresented in the population of convicted felons, we are more and more in a situation in which women judge men.

    Here we see the first step of the dialectic, masculinity has become a problem. Its values are losing significance its ways meet with more disapproval. Boys are taught by women and judged by women. They are judged impartially I must add, I do not wish to cast any doubt on the impartiality of female or male judges, but it is a sign of the times that women wield actual power, improve on the social ladder and boys remain a majority of the people who lose out in society. Masculinity is facing a crisis. Physical strength is not needed, but becomes a burden as using it to resolve conflicts is increasingly frouned upon. Their fondness of hierarchy is not producing results and their preference for competition is met by an emphasis on relationality and consensus.

    All of this does agrees with points made by @Amity and @Vera Mont above but underscores the problematic nature. It is not necessarily men who are the oppressors. Yes, currently it is men who grab power, but its traditional values feel the brunt of societal disapproval, in schools their tactics are disapproved of by teachers and in society at large by the judiciary. This is the first leg of the problem, masculinity has become a problem in itself.

    Masculinity and subterranean values: masculinity a problem for itself
    If this was all there was to it, the route would be simple. Men could adapt. There is nothing stopping men from embracing more relational values, especially if it works. The onus would be squarely on them and it is a matter of clearing up the last remnants of patriarchy.

    The situation though is more precarious and here I feel both men and women are implicated. To argue this I take recourse to the notion of subterranean values. 'Subterranean values' is a concept introduced in phenomenological criminology by Matza and Sykes and denotes values that live below the surface of mainstream society. Subterranean values are socially accepted values that are usually suppressed in everyday life but can be expressed in certain situations, especially in subcultures or moments of moral flexibility.

    While feminine values are becoming our mainstream values, masculine values remain revered in situations that are out of the ordinary, 'in love and war' so to speak, quite literarily in this case.
    When one reads young adult male forums one gets a sense that you have to be a bad boy to get girls. That can be quickly dismissed as the whining of losers, but there is some scientific support for this hypothesis. From a study on delinquency and dating behaviour: "Of particular importance, results suggest that delinquency does not appear to increase dating by increasing the delinquent's desire for dates. Instead, they suggest that delinquency increases dating outcomes by making the delinquent more attractive to prospective mates. This finding supports evolutionary psychology's implicit prediction that
    adolescents may, knowingly or unknowingly (see Berry & Broadbent, 1984; Claxton, 1999; Lewicki et al., 1992; Massey, 2002), perceive delinquency as one type of risk-taking behavior that reflects such qualities as nerve, daring, and bravado. 5 From an evolutionary perspective, such qualities may be highly beneficial to a prospective mate's social status, physical well-being, and/or genetic lineage"(Rebellon & Manasse 2004, https://doi.org/10.1080/07418820400095841).

    Of course I can find one study, you find another that shows the opposite. However also if we take a more phenomenological route one derives at this outcome. There are scores of movies, books and other texts/images that depict the dominant man getting a woman, from the James Bond franchise to the recent Dutch success 'Baby Girl' and from Pride and Prejudice to 50 shades of Grey. Apparently it is not that simple. Men could embrace feminine values and become nice guys, but that does not necessarily make them more attractive. Here we have a different kind of problem from the first, namely that what desired masculinity is, is itself still in doubt. Masculinity has become a problem for itself, it is unclear what it is precisely, how it should be constructed. It is clear that it is a problem, but unclear what the solution is because it is caught in a contradiction. It has to reform and not reform at the same time.

    Conclusion

    The crisis, I suggest, runs deeper than simply the patriarchy reasserting itself as it always has done. And I apologize for needing a wall of text to make my point. There is a genuine need to look at the problem of masculinity. We have not addressed that and so men either become resentful, yearning for their old days of dominance, or insecure not knowing how to act and therefore inactive. It is no coincidence that there is hardly a male challenger to Trump or to his European counterparts. There is Sanders, but he is 85 years old, arguably he grew up before masculinity became such a thorny problem. The most credible leaders are women, but they will face an uphill battle of resentment. This resentment cannot be as easily dismissed as it is often done, because the problem of masculinity I argue is real and needs addressing.
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.4k
    The second assumption is that there is a connection between the recent success of the far right and the emergence of a 'manosphere' and 'mysogynistic' tendencies.Tobias

    That isn't the case I think, we had had emergence of far right movements in Europe for decades.

    The reason for it's emmergence is a group of people feeling like mainstream establisment parties wasn't working for them.

    And the particular reason for the recent re-resurgence is because these parties had traditionally been excluded from societal debate and traditional media... with the shift to social media this isn't really the case anymore.

    It seems to me the split is between a valuesystem based on universality (Christian/platonic) and a valuesystem centered arround the interests of a delineated, not all inclusive, group of people.

    All of humanity has the same rights/value vs. my people first.
  • Tobias
    1.1k
    That isn't the case I think, we had had emergence of far right movements in Europe for decades.ChatteringMonkey

    That is why I qualified it and stated 'recent success'.
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.4k
    Ok social media is my answer then.
  • Tobias
    1.1k
    And such an informative answer it is...
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.4k


    And the particular reason for the recent re-resurgence is because these parties had traditionally been excluded from societal debate and traditional media... with the shift to social media this isn't really the case anymore.ChatteringMonkey

    I editted my first post while you were replying probably.
  • Tobias
    1.1k
    Possibly yes. I agree with you that social media is a factor, which should be taken on board in my analysis, but the post was long enough as it is. It does beg the question though why misogyny finds such fertile ground. If I would take that as a point of departure, the question: "why is misogyny rife on social media and a strong factor in the recent emergence of the far right", my analysis would be the same. There is I think an underlying problem which needs to addressed. Social media itself may inform 'us against them' sort of thinking, but does not dictate how the 'us' and 'them' are defined.
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.4k
    Because young undisciplined males are often the ones that don't fit in the kind of society we have. Those then find eachother in the fringes and re-enforce eachother in a bubble fueled with resentment... and you get an ideology infused with toxic misogyny.
  • frank
    16.6k
    I was recently telling another poster about how Bronze Age people thought human action is controlled by external divinities. Another aspect of that is that brave, virtuous actions were usually caused by male divinities. Actions that cause disaster were usually coming from female ones. Line this up with the book of Genesis where a primal female brings sin into the world. Think of the average Disney movie where the arch villain is almost always female, and similar to the role Venus plays in the story of Eros and Psyche. Venus tries to destroy Psyche.

    One could argue that this is something structural in the human mind, except there's genetic evidence that Celtic societies were female-dominated. Navajo relationships were at the whims of women, not men. I agree with Nietzsche that good and evil can switch poles depending on a society's underlying agendas, so I don't think it's structural. I think it's a symptom, side-effect, aspect of? certain kind of cultural journeys. It's definitely a whale in the psychic sea, though. It's ancient.
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.4k
    So more in terms of a solution.

    If it is an effect of the kind of society we have, i.e. exclusion of a certain part of society, then you would think the way to avoid it festering in the fringes, is to change society so there are included.

    That was the mistake after WWII I think, exclusion of the extremes is maybe not the way to prevent fascism, maybe it is even (part of) the cause.
  • Tzeentch
    4k
    With threads like these, I honestly have to squint to find anything I find vaguely agreeable. It's like you all are living in a different world or something.

    Problematizing 'masculinity' and men in general is no different than what certain cultures have done to women historically. It's just as archaic. Just as damaging.

    It feeds off the primal insecurities many people harbor for the opposite sex (those being an understandable result of unrequited desires) - it's just the pendulum swinging to the other side of the spectrum.

    Seldom do I see more dehumanizing, less compassionate takes on what healthy societal relations between men and women would look like.
  • BitconnectCarlos
    2.4k
    There are scores of movies, books and other texts/images that depict the dominant man getting a woman, from the James Bond franchise to the recent Dutch success 'Baby Girl' and from Pride and Prejudice to 50 shades of Grey. Apparently it is not that simple. Men could embrace feminine values and become nice guys, but that does not necessarily make them more attractive. Here we have a different kind of problem from the first, namely that what desired masculinity is, is itself still in doubt. Masculinity has become a problem for itself, it is unclear what it is precisely, how it should be constructed. It is clear that it is a problem, but unclear what the solution is because it is caught in a contradiction. It has to reform and not reform at the same time.Tobias

    The happiest and most enviable men who are those who can go home to a wife and kids that love them. It's not the Andrew Tates of the world. A man must be able to integrate "feminine" values to some extent. My advice - read the Bible. Jesus was a man who managed to successfully integrate masculine and feminine traits in a way that made him such a powerful human. The choice doesn't need to be Andrew Tate or be a doormat. If the dichotomy of alpha asshole/submissive beta is causing you mental strain then step outside of it.
  • Tzeentch
    4k
    Indeed. It's precisely because Western society failed to produce any meaningful male role models that enabled scam artists like Tate to prey on lost young men.

    People flocked to idiots like Tate because what society offered them was even worse. Let that sink in.

    One thing is certain, this problem cannot be solved by the same people who fell for the radical feminist spiel.
  • Tobias
    1.1k
    One could argue that this is something structural in the human mind, except there's genetic evidence that Celtic societies were female-dominated. Navajo relationships were at the whims of women, not men. I agree with Nietzsche that good and evil can switch poles depending on a society's underlying agendas, so I don't think it's structural. I think it's a symptom, side-effect, aspect of? certain kind of cultural journeys. It's definitely a whale in the psychic sea, though. It's ancient.frank

    Well yes, I think it is a symptom, but a symptom of what? And what is the symptom exactly the emergence of the far right or the resentment of many young men? What I am curious about is, is whether traditional analyses of power structures in which the rise of the far right is simply conceived as a pathological reaction to the emancipatory struggle for equal rights, with an analysis a repression of masculinity.

    If it is an effect of the kind of society we have, i.e. exclusion of a certain part of society, then you would think the way to avoid it festering in the fringes, is to change society so there are included.ChatteringMonkey

    Yes, but what should change? I have the idea we hear the fringes on each side far louder than in the past?

    With threads like these, I honestly have to squint to find anything I find vaguely agreeable. It's like you all are living in a different world or something.Tzeentch

    Why is that? Could you perhaps elaborate a bit more?

    Problematizing 'masculinity' and men in general is no different than what certain cultures have done to women historically. It's just as archaic. Just as damaging.Tzeentch

    I do not think problematizing something is inherently damaging. Problematizing for instance climate change was perhaps necessary to get people to understand their predicament. I also do not see how I am problematizing masculinity perse as if it is some kind of fixed category. What I am pointing out is that the power grab of the far right can be considered as solely a result of a backlash of some sort of patriarchy against equal rights, but may be more fruitfully considered as both the result of anxious masculinity and other more insidious feminine forms of control through which the self image of masculinity is becoming perilous.

    It feeds off the primal insecurities many people harbor for the opposite sex (those being an understandable result of unrequited desires) - it's just the pendulum swinging to the other side of the spectrum.Tzeentch

    This is actually an argumentum ad hominem. Trying to analyze and understand something is psychologized as some sort of anxious reaction of the analyzer. Or did you mean something different?

    Seldom do I see more dehumanizing, less compassionate takes on what healthy societal relations between men and women would look like.Tzeentch

    Again, I have trouble following you. I did not offer any proposal on what 'healthy' relationships would look like, I am just identifying rather dehumanizing trends. I just think dehumanization is not a one way street.

    The happiest and most enviable men who are those can go home to a wife and kids that love them. It's not the Andrew Tates of the world. A man must be able to integrate "feminine" values to some extent. My advice - read the Bible. Jesus was a man who managed to successfully integrate masculine and feminine traits in a way that made him such a powerful human. The choice doesn't need to be Andrew Tate or be a doormat. If the dichotomy of alpha asshole/submissive beta is causing you mental strain then step outside of it.BitconnectCarlos

    Your post show your adherence to conservative values. You state that the most enviable men are those that go home to a wife and kids. This means that in your conception of the world, the man goes out into the world, only to come home to where his wife already is. It is a simple and crude picture of happiness that never really existed. Men would not come home but when out to drink with their mates. It is simply an old recipe, adhere to some supposedly natural order given to you by the bible and all will be great. We are living in a different world though. Women also go out and work, men also do care work. It is precisely the attraction to the old recipe that fuels extreme conservative movements.

    BitconnectCarlos Indeed. It's precisely because Western society failed to produce any meaningful male role models that enabled scam artists like Tate to prey on lost young men.Tzeentch

    Well, apparently Jesus Christ was one. What would a meaningful role model be in your view?
  • T Clark
    14.3k
    The reason for it's emmergence is a group of people feeling like mainstream establisment parties wasn't working for them.ChatteringMonkey

    This and your whole post make a lot of sense to me.
  • T Clark
    14.3k
    Problematizing 'masculinity' and men in general is no different than what certain cultures have done to women historically. It's just as archaic. Just as damaging.Tzeentch

    I almost never agree with you when we talk politics or social philosophy, but I agree with what you say in this post.
  • frank
    16.6k
    Well yes, I think it is a symptom, but a symptom of what? And what is the symptom exactly the emergence of the far right or the resentment of many young men? What I am curious about is, is whether traditional analyses of power structures in which the rise of the far right is simply conceived as a pathological reaction to the emancipatory struggle for equal rights, with an analysis a repression of masculinity.Tobias

    The far right is a conglomeration. You're asking if incels are a primary driving force, as opposed to just being attracted to it because of an emotional affinity. I think it's more the latter. Trump has a long history of placing women in critically important roles. He's suggested that he is sexist, but thinks hiring women is beneficial because they feel like they have to work harder to be on equal ground. He recently appointed the first female chief of staff, not because he wanted to put on a show of coddling the poor women of the world because they're helpless and we have to give them a boost, but rather because he liked her style and doesn't give a fuck about the rest.

    Really, if I were a woman, I would prefer Trump's approach. Don't treat me like a child who has to be protected. Tell your sexist jokes, grab body parts, but in the end, reward me for kicking ass. The far right does have a point, that when we finally stop worrying that so-and-so is a woman, so-and-so is black, latino, asian, etc., we've finally made progress. I realize that all sorts of toxic stuff gets drawn into that and if someone quotes that without this subsequent acknowledgement, I won't respond.
  • T Clark
    14.3k
    There is a genuine need to look at the problem of masculinity.Tobias

    This says it all - "the problem of masculinity." Keeping in mind I'm a registered Democrat and a liberal who thinks Biden was the best president in my adult life, here are what I see as the root of the problem, at least in part.

    • White men are tired of being treated with contempt and blamed for all our society's problems.
    • The Democratic Party has failed to address the issues that affect working people.
    • Conservative people are tired of having radical changes in social and political values rammed down their throats.
  • Philosophim
    2.9k
    With threads like these, I honestly have to squint to find anything I find vaguely agreeable. It's like you all are living in a different world or something.Tzeentch

    100% agree. This feels more like a pop culture argument with very poor definitions of masculinity and femininity that are tools to argue a political point.
  • Tobias
    1.1k
    This says it all - "the problem of masculinity." Keeping in mind I'm a registered Democrat and a liberal who thinks Biden was the best president in my adult life, here are what I see as the root of the problem, at least in part.

    White men are tired of being treated with contempt and blamed for all our society's problems.
    The Democratic Party has failed to address the issues that affect working people.
    More conservative people are tired of having radical changes in social and political values rammed down their throats.
    T Clark

    Actually I agree with you. I do not think calling it 'the problem of masculinity' says it all though, but maybe I should have been more clear. I think that masculine values as they are traditionally conceived march out of tune with the way society is developing. I think society will turn feminine as Hofstede defined it, more and more. It is not a moral claim, it is a factual claim. It may also turn out wrong. If it is not wrong though masculinity as a specific set of values runs into problems and if we have a class of people embracing values that are actually not very productive anymore, we face a problem of masculinity. It is not a moral claim at all, just a rather cold power based analysis.

    I do not think that all social problems are the fault of white men, on the contrary. I dislike identity politics. What I do like to delve into is mechanisms of control. Blaming men, is, I feel, a control mechanism and is one that is equally oppressive as blaming women for everything. It is a control mechanism though that rendered progressive politics ineffective, as it has embraced identity politics to a significant extent.

    100% agree. This feels more like a pop culture argument with very poor definitions of masculinity and femininity that are tools to argue a political point.Philosophim

    By all means do a better job. I tried to provide definitions actually used in sociology. Two lines are a bit disappointing, but I am happy hearing where the argument goes wrong.
  • Tobias
    1.1k
    Really, if I were a woman, I would prefer Trump's approach. Don't treat me like a child who has to be protected. Tell your sexist jokes, grab body parts, but in the end, reward me for kicking ass. The far right does have a point, that when we finally stop worrying that so-and-so is a woman, so-and-so is black, latino, asian, etc., we've finally made progress. I realize that all sorts of toxic stuff gets drawn into that and if someone quotes that without this subsequent acknowledgement, I won't respondfrank

    I agree with you, but I think it is not that simple. I wish the far right really didn't worry about such issues. Yet the values far right parties have embraced were all masculine values in which women as a class had little to say and their function was to beget men. Not just men though, men of a particular type favored by 'the nation' whatever that may be. In specific hiring functions it may well be that women are employed that is not the philosophy behind it. They may also employ an immigrant or refugee, yet their policies are consistently anti-immigration usually with some notion of purity or religious preference attached to it.
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.4k
    Yes, but what should change? I have the idea we hear the fringes on each side far louder than in the past?Tobias

    Yes it's getting more extreme on both sides.

    I think identity is important here. Now the mainstream view of ourselves in the west is that we are these cosmopolitan citizens that are part of the group 'humanity', an all-inclusive group. That is the Platonist part I was referring to, morality as something abstract and universal. For those doing well in the globalised world that is something they can probably relate to.

    For those left behind in rustbelts and online chatrooms this doesn't mean anything, and from their perspective it looks like a cabal of people taking advantage of them... which you know has at least a kernel of truth in it, in that the structures that were set up, deliberately or indeliberately, don't favour them. So you could do something about that.

    But more important is probably that they feel like they don't belong to anything, and so sometimes they find their group in sportsclubs, or sometimes they go to crime... or sometimes to more extremist groups. One thing that has worked to keep back the far-right in my country was a strong conservative party, with a healthy kind of patriotism. Maybe it should be fine to have an identity as a country that isn't all-inclusive, and have policy that favours a certain kind of culture or values above others... so you have something people can identify with.
  • frank
    16.6k
    I agree with you, but I think it is not that simple. I wish the far right really didn't worry about such issues. Yet the values far right parties have embraced were all masculine values in which women as a class had little to say and their function was to beget men. Not just men though, men of a particular type favored by 'the nation' whatever that may be. In specific hiring functions it may well be that women are employed that is not the philosophy behind it. They may also employ an immigrant or refugee, yet their policies are consistently anti-immigration usually with some notion of purity or religious preference attached to it.Tobias

    I'm guessing something is lost in translation here. If I were at work at started talking about "feminine values" as described in the OP, I'd have to run behind the corner to avoid being hit by whatever objects are in the environment. You can't predict what a person will value based on what they have between their legs, right?
  • Joshs
    6k


    What do we mean by masculinity and femininity? I think in the previous thread it was left implicit. Here I take a broad and theoretical view of masculinity and femininity, derived from the sociologist Hofstede. He ranked societies as feminine and masculine based on a number of characteristics. OTobias

    I consider masculinity, femininity, homosexuality and all other gendered concepts to be social constructs which interpret biological features in ways that vary from era to era and culture to culture. What you seem to be doing is turning one such era-specific construct , the masculine-feminine binary, into a biologically essentialized universal and then using it to explain traditionalist thinking on the political right in the West today. I argue instead that what you understand as masculinity and femininity are not only culturally relative constructs, but do not explain right wing populism. Rather, they are themselves subordinate elements of a larger traditionalist worldview which is about much more than gendered behavior. Do MAGA supporters embrace guns, authoritarianism, oppose abortion, immigrants, climate science, Transgender rights and feminism because of masculine thinking, or are the very concepts of masculinity and femininity they espouse reflections of a traditionalist worldview?
  • Tzeentch
    4k
    Where to even start?

    In threads such as these, the terms 'masculinity' and 'femininity' just become a fig leaf used to slap the most ridiculous generalizations onto people.

    The only distinction that is made is apparently whether they agree with you politically.

    What I am pointing out is that the power grab of the far right can be considered as solely a result of a backlash of some sort of patriarchy against equal rights, but may be more fruitfully considered as both the result of anxious masculinity and other more insidious feminine forms of control through which the self image of masculinity is becoming perilous.Tobias

    What do you expect me to make of this?

    Surely when you say 'anxious masculinity' and 'insidious femininity' you are simply talking about anxious men and 'insidious' women (whatever that means), and how they voted for the other candidate?

    How dare they. There must be something wrong with them.

    You accuse me of psychologizing, but what is your argument if not one giant exercise in psychologizing?
  • Tobias
    1.1k
    I'm guessing something is lost in translation here. If I were at work at started talking about "feminine values" as described in the OP, I'd have to run behind the corner to avoid being hit by whatever objects are in the environment. You can't predict what a person will value based on what they have between their legs, right?frank

    These are values culturally ascribed to men and women, in our western cultural context, at least according to Hofstede. They are ideal typical in the sense that one will never find them unadulterated. Also in answer to @Joshs, I hold a social constructivist view myself. However, that does not mean that such values are not constructed in such a way. Saying that x is a social construction just means that there is nothing essential about x, but not that x does not exist. That there is a difference in value patterns can also be shown in the voting behaviour of men and women. Women are more left leaning than men. Here is the voting result from the Dutch election in 2019:

    csm_17476098b0843fe7868e_f80376bb95.jpg Both VVD and FVD are conservative where the FVD can be considered far right (the party with the little pillar. In the US a gender gap among voters exist as well. See here: [url=http://]https://cawp.rutgers.edu/gender-gap-voting-choices-presidential-elections.[/url]

    So no, you cannot predict what someone thinks but you can predict that when you see a woman it is more likely that she voted for Harris and when you see a man it is more likely he voted for Trump.
  • fdrake
    7k
    I think that masculine values as they are traditionally conceived march out of tune with the way society is developing. I think society will turn feminine as Hofstede defined it, more and more. It is not a moral claim, it is a factual claim. It may also turn out wrong. If it is not wrong though masculinity as a specific set of values runs into problems and if we have a class of people embracing values that are actually not very productive anymore, we face a problem of masculinity. It is not a moral claim at all, just a rather cold power based analysis.Tobias

    I think the point you made in the OP is rather important. There was a recent poll in the UK which showed that around 40% of high schoolers believed they had been taught "men were a problem for society", so this is something worth paying attention to even if it's false. I want to add the following points to it, which are also questions. This is also about the UK, which is what I'm familiar with.

    1 ) If masculine values become more disincentivised on a societal level, how ought the relative stability of some aspects of gender norms to be explained over time? I have in mind that the boys at school are rewarded by peers for violence, bravado and competition, but punished by their teachers for it. They're taught to be as sensitive and emotionally aware as the girls, but the girls are not mocked in the playground for displays of emotion.

    2 ) Some explanation is required for girls outperforming boys in school at every level and in every subject {up to some demographic factors}. Boys are much more likely to be suspended or permanently excluded too.

    3 ) Some explanation is required for the rigidity of gender norms in high risk and physical workplaces - the overwhelming majority of construction workers, military personnel and offshore workers are still men. Compare the overwhelming split the other way for nurses and human resources professionals.

    4 ) Women now write and publish more books than men.

    5 ) 80%ish of rough sleepers {street sleepers} are men.

    Given that there is a crisis, that crisis is eroding and emphasising aspects of gender identity and gendered privileges differentially. Some aspects are broadly maintained - women are caring, sacred, confined and ought value the other. Men are violent, profane, domineering and ought value the self.

    My impression goes along with much of what you say @Tobias, that people's frame of interpretation for gender is still rooted in the aesthetics and moral values of what, now, polite society is seen to "reject". Though now the economic dimension of those norms has levelled considerably as of the last 5 years {though I don't know of a similar meta analysis study for the UK}, and people in general see women and men as equally capable of jobs women were traditionally excluded from.

    Here we see the first step of the dialectic, masculinity has become a problem. Its values are losing significance its ways meet with more disapproval. Boys are taught by women and judged by women. They are judged impartially I must add, I do not wish to cast any doubt on the impartiality of female or male judges, but it is a sign of the times that women wield actual power, improve on the social ladder and boys remain a majority of the people who lose out in society. Masculinity is facing a crisis. Physical strength is not needed, but becomes a burden as using it to resolve conflicts is increasingly frouned upon. Their fondness of hierarchy is not producing results and their preference for competition is met by an emphasis on relationality and consensus.Tobias

    I also want to add that a bizarre collusion exists in the image of masculinity in polite society and that which is embodied by strongman leaders and misogynist grifters, man as a necessary aggressor. The only disagreement is whether this image is morally good or bad.

    In threads such as these, the terms 'masculinity' and 'femininity' just become a fig leaf used to slap the most ridiculous generalizations onto people.Tzeentch

    :up:

    And as Tzeentch highlights, you also get a hilarious agreement between some hyper postmodern contemporary feminists, and people who don't like generalising for other reasons.

    The former highlighting that generalisations like "white man", "masculinity", "femininity" are insufficiently localised and contextualised {intersectional} to make an iota of sense... and the latter that people ought be considered on a more person by person basis without the use of stereotypes.

    I think we just got used to talking out of our arses about relationships between men and women, and gender in general, and selectively forget how to think about it.
  • Tobias
    1.1k
    In threads such as these, the terms 'masculinity' and 'femininity' just become a fig leaf used to slap the most ridiculous generalizations onto people.Tzeentch

    You will have to generalize when you do sociology. Sure everyone is different, great but that does not explain anything. Perhaps Hofstede is not a good source, might be, do you have anything better? Or are we forbidden to analyze the subject of masculinity and femininity altogether? Yes, I accept it is a social construction, somehow I doubt you do, but hey. Analyzing these social constructions is interesting especially because it may lay bare some presupposition we might have. I do it because I find the analyses offered in the other threads one sided, so I try to take the theory a step forward.

    What do you expect me to make of this?Tzeentch

    I am expecting an analysis of the question at hand. What do you make of the fact that Trump is most popular among men, that extreme right wing parties attract more male than female voters? Perhaps in your view it is a counter reaction of a power grab by women, or perceived power grab, or perhaps it has nothing to do with masculinity and femininity at all. By all means explain! Do so with something that resembles an analysis.
    Of course it is easy to pick apart my proposal and you are welcome to do it, but the condescension you display is baseless unless you offer something convincing. Otherwise just pick apart my arguments, show me where I go wrong, but realize you have not put forward anything like a counter proposal yourself.
  • Joshs
    6k


    , I hold a social constructivist view myself.Tobias

    Then why did you write this?

    delinquency does not appear to increase dating by increasing the delinquent's desire for dates. Instead, they suggest that delinquency increases dating outcomes by making the delinquent more attractive to prospective mates. This finding supports evolutionary psychology's implicit prediction that adolescents may, knowingly or unknowingly (see Berry & Broadbent, 1984; Claxton, 1999; Lewicki et al., 1992; Massey, 2002), perceive delinquency as one type of risk-taking behavior that reflects such qualities as nerve, daring, and bravado. 5 From an evolutionary perspective, such qualities may be highly beneficial to a prospective mate's social status, physical well-being, and/or genetic lineage"Tobias
  • Tobias
    1.1k
    Then why did you write this?Joshs

    What I found interesting in that article is not so much the evolutionary psychology behind it, (but in this case it is nice it supports the point as many in this forum do seem to embrace it) what I found interesting is the correlation between perceived attractiveness as a dating partner and delinquency. I think the answer for it lies more in the concept I explained as 'subterranean values', social values that are presented but seldom 'officially' articulated, then in some evolutionary psychology.
  • Tobias
    1.1k
    1 ) If masculine values become more disincentivised on a societal level, how ought the relative stability of some aspects of gender norms to be explained over time? I have in mind that the boys at school are rewarded by peers for violence, bravado and competition, but punished by their teachers for it. They're taught to be as sensitive and emotionally aware as the girls, but the girls are not mocked in the playground for displays of emotion.fdrake

    I wonder how stable they are. I try to base myself on at least a modicum of facts and figures and for this I do not have them at hand. I do know that a lot of schools now have 'bullying protocols' and that this issue is now often discussed. The point which I tried to make though and which you also picked up on (thanks for that) is that a lot of these values actually stay the same and that overt formal condemnation and demand for change is countered by informal 'subterranean' reinforcement. I feel stereotypical male values are formally opposed and informally reinforced.

    2 ) Some explanation is required for girls outperforming boys in school at every level and in every subject {up to some demographic factors}. Boys are much more likely to be suspended or permanently excluded too.fdrake

    Well, if I am write one explanation is that boys are taught to be active and hands on, girls are taught to be passive and verbal. Being hands on and active was great for most professions in the 1900s but in a service sector economy it pays of much more to be verbal. Add to that that higher education is verbal to the core and it comes as no surprise. The decreased tolerance for violence and unruly behaviour means boys (who are informally by rewarded by peers for this behaviour) get more formal sanctions.

    3 ) Some explanation is required for the rigidity of gender norms in high risk and physical workplaces - the overwhelming majority of construction workers, military personnel and offshore workers are still men. Compare the overwhelming split the other way for nurses and human resources professionals.fdrake

    Why does this need explanation? It fits the theory rather well no? In a more feminine society, these are the roles ascribed to men.

    Though now the economic dimension of those norms has levelled considerably as of the last 5 years, and people in general see women and men as equally capable of jobs women were traditionally excluded from.fdrake

    Yes and if I am write the pendulum will swing in women's favour. They will be seen as more capable of verbal jobs that require both rational and emotional intelligence, such as judge, university professor, upper management. It will take time, but if my theory is right it will happen.

    The former highlighting that generalisations like "white man", "masculinity", "femininity" are insufficiently localised and contextualised {intersectional} to make an iota of sense... and the latter that people ought be considered on a more person by person basis without the use of stereotypes.fdrake

    Indeed! And as far as I am concerned both positions are equally detrimental.

    I think we just got used to talking out of our arses about relationships between men and women, and gender in general, and selectively forget how to think about it.fdrake

    Yes, that is the point of this thread. With missteps of course as is common on a forum like this. I do agree with you though. I also think the topic is so polarized that everyone assumes there is some political agenda behind the words of another. I feel the deadlock on this topic needs to be broken. Thanks! :ok: :flower:
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.

×
We use cookies and similar methods to recognize visitors and remember their preferences.