I don't doubt it. What would you like to discuss? Is there something we can do about it?

What would you like to discuss? — bert1

Whether or not you agree — but also specific examples. For me, I think advertising rears its ugly head in areas one might not suspect — like marriage and especially WEDDINGS. But also homeownership, which I kind of “fell for” in a way. Or the way living at home with one’s parents is viewed as being a loser — which ties into encouraging owning a home or renting.

It’s subtle, but you see the beliefs and values that are essential as prerequisites for the desired consumer behavior manifest themselves in stories on television, from sitcoms to dramas — because the networks are themselves owned by corporate America.

Human beings have the same needs they had 100,000 years ago— but now those needs and the rituals surrounding them have been hijacked. Nothing is exempt — Christmas, marriage, love, where we dwell, what we eat, how we dress, what we strive for. It’s all been infiltrated.

You must have some examples in your own life…

Social pressure is used to cook a society the way certain powerful individuals want. The advantage of this is we can prevent a society from leaning into its lesser emotive motivations like greed and crime through laws and stories that dissuade this.

On the flip side, it can also be used to get people to think certain things are important that are not. There is absolutely no rational reason to buy a diamond for an engagement ring, its a manufactured social pressure that abuses a male's desire to provide some indicator of love and commitment to a woman. Social order constrains our desires while advertisement tells us which desires are safe to unleash, and how we should unleash them (preferably by paying a lot to someone else).

You must have some examples in your own life… — Mikie

Probably lots, but it's hard to see the water when you are swimming in it. I get sucked to those wretched facebook reels and youtube shorts. I hate the way FB has become an essential service for my work purposes, and then it throws shit at me at the same time. I'd like some strongly regulated online state-controlled services that must adhere to public principles. People used to be scared of state intrusion, now I feel like the only thing that can protect me from private companies is the state.

There is absolutely no rational reason to buy a diamond for an engagement ring, its a manufactured social pressure — Philosophim

Good example. When I heard the “rule” was 3 months salary it was really irritating. Says who? Here business has taken something once authentic and turned it into something contrived and purely about profit.

it's hard to see the water when you are swimming in it. — bert1

Exactly. It’s precisely this that I like to analyze, where possible.

. I hate the way FB has become an essential service for my work purposes — bert1

The role of social media in all this could be a thread of its own of course, but yes— like iPhones, since nearly everyone has one or is on one, we’re ripe for being even more intelligently targeted, our data being sold without permission. Getting out of it becomes a collective action problem.

It’s not simply relegated to buying things — though that may be its primary goal, the secondary psychological processes involved in achieving that goal, on philosophical outlook — on beliefs and values — is more insidious than often credited. — Mikie

And the things that are omitted, thus never taken seriously by the public at large, because if it was important, it would be on the news.

The scale of this problem is truly uncomfortable to think about.

If few want to control many, they have to control perception. And they certainly have us firmly by the perception.

You must have some examples in your own life… — Mikie

Yes. Protein branded food. It's fucking everywhere. Protein chocolate, protein sandwiches blah blah. Tescos here has "protein wraps", which are both less protein per gram and less protein per calorie than regular processed chicken sandwiches. "Protein bread" is literally just bread since gluten's in the macronutrient profile. Nuts get marketed as high protein when they're predominantly fat.

If someone's actually made a product that shifts the macronutrient profile of the product to be much protein heavier - like high protein cheeses or icecream, it's fine. But just regular food is getting called protein-food, when it's comparable to their non branded alternatives.

Also "skinny" food. Skinny lattes. It's the same number of calories as a skimmed milk latte - which is to say, a regular latte.

It's obviously the way to routinely sell people junk food, since you don't have to feel guilty binging on it if it counts as health food.

At the end of my block is one of those Clearchannel shifting wheel billboards, in December two ads would rotate on it - the first was for a long term savings account, the second was for the kind of junk food burger that would kill you if you ate it regularly.

At the nearest T-junction there's a series of ad plasters on a wall, one of them has "Dare to be different!" on it, and it's just plastered to this piece of shit dilapidated tenement. That slot on the wall gets kludged with signs of nonconformity, social justice, and respect. The drain outside stinks.

A sibling died years ago and the algorithm started sending me ads for crash diet plans, black suits, grief counselling, and tickets to Las Vegas. Ads using psychological profiles and sentiment analysis are incredibly invasive.

But also homeownership, which I kind of “fell for” in a way. Or the way living at home with one’s parents is viewed as being a loser — which ties into encouraging owning a home or renting. — Mikie

And what's the alternative? Are you implying that owning a home is a bad thing? Or renting?

We’ve all been influenced by propaganda — from the news to education— but the advisement industry is a particularly effective and often overlooked source of indoctrination. In my view it’s as potent as Fox News or going to church. — Mikie

Agree. I think nowadays everyone is tremendously over-stimulated by media and advertising. Two of my grandchildren are boys, 3 and 6. They're totally zoned in to Netflix, although their parents limit the amount of time they can spend with it. But the older one will take the control to skip the boring bits, and replay the good bits, of any number of hyperactively animated movies. Consequently their minds are all over the place, they have very short attention spans and get bored very easily. But we're all like that nowadays. I'm like it! 'Consumerism' relies on stimulating wants, the more the better, and getting consumers habituated to mass-produced goods. Vast fortunes are made on it.

That video is geoblocked here in AU, but I've long been aware of critiques of a similar kind. Edward Bernays, nephew of Freud, is the godfather of all this. The media analysis, Neil Postman and Marshall McLuhan, were also wise to it. But with hypermedia and smart devices, it has grown absolutely exponentially.

Speaking of Church, I wonder if the so-called charismatic evangelical churches, with bands and lightshows and the like - are simply the result of applying these cultural forms to so-called 'religion'. That, combined with the so called 'prosperity gospel', which worships consumerist materialism as a manifestation of the holy spirit.

Maybe the Amish are on to something ;-)

But just regular food is getting called protein-food, when it's comparable to their non branded alternatives. — fdrake

One of my pet hates is how everything is labeled as using "AI". Product manufacturers are disadvantaged if they don't claim "AI" when their competitors do. To a certain extent this problem is made worse by the public's gullibility and lack of knowledge.

Yeah we use AI leveraged SEO for pre-blitz scoping of consumer trendsetters and market bottlenecks. It's just how it's done.

Speaking of Church, I wonder if the so-called charismatic evangelical churches, with bands and lightshows and the like - are simply the result of applying these cultural forms to so-called 'religion'. That, combined with the so called 'prosperity gospel', which worships consumerist materialism as a manifestation of the holy spirit. — Wayfarer

I think certain types of Protestant, especially with their barnstorming tent extravaganzas of the early 1900's, have often put on a big show. Elmer Gantry by Sinclair Lewis springs to mind. What Americans figured out long ago is that everything is intensified through marketing and showbiz. Hence, Trump. A Trump rally has always looked to me like Robert H. Schuller preaching in his Crystal Cathedral.

If few want to control many, they have to control perception. And they certainly have us firmly by the perception. — Tzeentch

:up:

And by desire, thanks to the merchants of cool and others like them.

A sibling died years ago and the algorithm started sending me ads for crash diet plans, black suits, grief counselling, and tickets to Las Vegas. Ads using psychological profiles and sentiment analysis are incredibly invasive. — fdrake

It’s scary how well some of these algorithms work though— with news, with music, with anticipating what you’ll search for based on the prior search or time of day, etc. We’re still reeling from the effects of the 90s and 2000s ad blitzes, but now with smartphones and social media it makes those days look quaint.

I think if they were to remake the documentary, the “cool” now would be influencers, who are really corporate shills themselves. Much like the example of ICP, they have to sell out — then kids catch on, and someone new comes up, then corporate America absorbs them, and so forth. Since they own these platforms, they get to choose.

And what's the alternative? Are you implying that owning a home is a bad thing? Or renting? — jgill

No, but there are alternatives: pooling resources with friends or family is a common one. But that isn’t very profitable, so it’s made to seem “un-cool.”

My wife and I convinced ourselves that we needed to buy a house before having a baby. We’ve done both — and now I realize I don’t need 3 bedrooms and 1,800 square feet at a 5.65% mortgage rate. I think it was the right move at the time, but I never even considered buying my parents’ house and making a little apartment for them or something — and I wonder why. It’s not because I don’t get along with them or that we’d have no privacy or space, or that it didn’t make better sense financially. It’s partly because in this culture, that’s simply ruled out as an option if you’re a “successful” adult. That’s aggravating to me.

Consequently their minds are all over the place, they have very short attention spans and get bored very easily. But we're all like that nowadays. I'm like it! 'Consumerism' relies on stimulating wants, the more the better, and getting consumers habituated to mass-produced goods. Vast fortunes are made on it. — Wayfarer

Yes indeed. It’s an attention-based economy in many ways now. They want your likes, views, engagement. That makes them money for advertisers. Not altogether different from television shows — the product TV sold was people’s attention, and they sold it to advertisers. Even subscription-based platforms now have ads. Facebook is just a cesspool of it. Twitter too.

Maybe the Amish are on to something ;-) — Wayfarer

I was in Amish country a couple years ago — it’s seeped into their culture too. They give buggy rides, have ice cream stores, sell rootbeer from their farms, own restaurants, etc. There are several different sects. Only the most strict don’t engage in any of this stuff and are self-sufficient. Those are the ones I was hoping to meet—and never did.

We’ve all been influenced by propaganda — from the news to education— but the advisement industry is a particularly effective and often overlooked source of indoctrination. I — Mikie

You must not have taken a formal course in marketing to say this. The theory of marketing says exactly that advertising is to persuade or convince the public to buy this or that particular brand. Whatever image a business wants to sell, they have all kinds of posturing to make it happen.

You must not have taken a formal course in marketing to say this. — L'éléphant

I wasn’t talking about me exclusively, and my point is that it goes beyond buying brands.

Everyone knows businesses try to sell things and have various techniques to do so.

You must not have taken a formal course in marketing to say this. The theory of marketing says exactly that advertising is to persuade or convince the public to buy this or that particular brand. Whatever image a business wants to sell, they have all kinds of posturing to make it happen. — L'éléphant

A real "scales dropped from my eyes" moment was learning that Foucault was part of some marketing classes.

:chin: I've no idea what you're talking about. Any links for the ignorant?

A real "scales dropped from my eyes" moment was learning that Foucault was part of some marketing classes. — fdrake

:smile: You should try looking up his field of study in college.

What was it?

Just generally that marketers are reading about the creation of subjectivities and epistemes as a fundament to their study.

Ahhh OK. Makes sense.

...

Now I might be contradicting myself, but then it seems like philosophy might be useful at something after all ;)

Now I might be contradicting myself, but then it seems like philosophy might be useful at something after all ;) — Moliere

Yes. Who would've thought the rulers of the republic would be reading Foucault.

Far too few of us, I'm afraid.