I think we create morals, as a society, over time. Cause and effect plays a role in that these morals get refined and adjusted by a process of trial and error when we interact with the world. But it's not like science that we just go observing the world and find out what the causes and effects are. There's also a 'subjective' valuing part to it and so there's not only one correct true answer that follows from facts about the world.

So separate societies develop different moralities because of historical contingencies, and these then get passed on to the next generations. To some extend there's an arbitrary element to them that cannot be fully justified rationally or empirically, but has to be taken on faith. Since we live in groups it is also important that there is some coherence to the morals being pursued in the same group. Myths function to justify and anchor those moralities in coherent and comprehensive stories, because that is the way we pass them on and remember them best.

If we come to question those mythical foundations, like say via the scientific method, you eventually also end up losing the justification and anchor for that particular morality. And then people start questioning them and develop their own particular diverging views on it... and you eventually end up with the anarchy or chaos I was referring to (nihilism or Durkheim would call it anomie).

That is when people instinctively start asking for some kind of unifying power to remedy the situation, which can be abused by fascists and the like. — ChatteringMonkey

The stories "Little Red Hen", "The Fox and Grapes", "The Little Engine that Could" are all moral stories. We would read them to our children and ask, "What is the moral of that story?" The expected answer is a matter of cause and effect. No one helped the Little Red Hen so she didn't share her bread. The fox gave up on getting the grapes and the message is don't give up. The Little Engine that could did not give up.

This is important because nature is the ruler! If we do not do the right thing, things go bad. This understanding is essential to democracy and the Greek passion for getting things right. There is no violating the laws of nature and not being punished because your prayers to God worked and God decised to let you get away with doing things wrong. In short, we better be sure about the carbon dioxide in the air because God isn't going to save our sorry asses if we screw things up.

Before science people knew if they did the wrong things, things would go bad. Moral? do it right.

I agree with what you said about morality but I do not believe the end result will always be anarchy.

There is a notion called "logos" coming out of Athens. Logos is the controlling force of the universe made manifest in speech. Moral is to know the universal laws and have good manners. Later, Cicero, who studied in Athens, concluded that it is our nature to do the right thing when we know what that is. At the beginning of the Renaissance, Italians went with the notion that educated people can reach a consensus about morals, and they can govern themselves. Workers were educated for good citizenship and to be self-governing. This education is the trivium.

The Trivium - The Regina Academies
The Trivium is a foundational model in classical education, comprising three stages of learning: Grammar, Logic (also known as Dialectic), and Rhetoric. It's often seen as a framework for cultivating critical thinking, effective communication, and a broad understanding of the world.

AI

Poetry, history, and literature teach how to have the good life.

That was the model for education in the US until 1958 when the the National Defense Education Act was [passed for national defense reasons. Those who made that decision had a very limited idea of what was and what was needed. They lacked wisdom! We are now what we defended our democracy against. Anarchy being very much a part of the problem because education for technology is not education for life, liberty, and justice.

Only when the young are prepared for democracy is democracy protected. We stopped doing that in 1958 and put fascism in full control. I need to get to @BC with this explanation of fascicm.

I don’t mean to bum you or anyone else out by all this – and I’m sure some will find the just stated an all too laughable fantasy or, else, see no problems with authoritarian governance to begin with. It’s just that, while I view some humanitarian causes lost in the relative short-term, in the long-term I yet find that there is yet much to struggle for. This, at least, for those who care about future generations of children and the like. — javra

Schools were used to mobilize our nation for the two World Wars. Understanding the importance of this is difficult today because we are judging the world as it is now. Especially when we entered WWI, we were very low-tech. Women knitted socks and scarves for military men. Schools taught women to substitute cornmeal for flour so we could send our wheat overseas and feed the allies. Even at the end of WWII, people came home to outhouses and wood stoves.

My copy of the 1917 National Education Association Conference is an amazing piece of history explaining everything the schools did to raise patriotism and support the war effort. Back in the day, we supported the wars by buying war bonds. Children used their lunch money to buy war bonds and schools sold them. Our main defense was patriotic citizens who understood why democracy must be defended, not military technology. Germany was more technologically prepared for war than the US, before the 1958 National Defense Education Act gave us rapidly increasing military technology.

The point I'd like to make is the difference education can make. Our schools were the best organization we had for mobilizing us for war. At the start of WWI we didn't even have a market for radios. Newspapers were the only news source. People living on farms, as most people did, were not well informed when working was more important than going to college. We live in a changed world, but back in the day, mobilizing a nation the size of the US was a huge feat. Knowing what we did then leads me to believe we could do it again if we understood the importance of education to democracy. If we want to make our nation great again, we need to begin with out schools.

BTW, not all the Germans believed the lies; not all the Soviet citizens believed the lies; not all Americans believe the lies. — BC

I think we can see what Trump is doing with the power of fear. You know like Niccolo Machiavelli. Trump is building on fear. Could I be the next to lose my job? Can the college survive the loss of federal help? Why is it that anything said against what Israel has done to Palestine is illegal, antisemitic?
How many immigrants feel safe enough to argue against what is happening? How about a Palestinian who hears over and over again about Israel's right to defend itself and not a peep about Palestine's right to self-defense?

You know what, it doesn't matter if we see the lies, when we do not dare call out the liar. If you can not get a good job without joining the Nasi party, you keep your mouth shut and do what you have to do to pay your bills.

And while this hateful thing is going on, TV preachers continue to support Trump and tell us he is supported by God. We are dealing with a myth just as the Germans were dealing with a myth. The Bible is not a book for democracy.

Hitler and the Nazi Party led the process of rearmament and reorganization of German society with the intent of 'purifying' German society, acquiring lebensraum, and getting even with the Allies. The German Plan wasn't a state secret. The details were laid out in domestic propaganda. — BC

That is what I am seeing today.

I want to talk about the essential change in bureaucracy and the relationship with education and culture.

In our past, the US had great leaders like Washington and Lincoln, and Hamilton. At this time in history, everyone did his/her job as best as s/he could. There is a problem with this, when someone dies, it takes months for everyone to adjust to the new person. The Prussians avoided that problem by controlling everything with policy. Every job was closely defined and everyone could die but the bureaucracy never dies. It is no longer strong and creative human beings running the show, but the policy that defines what the job is and how it will be done. Everyone becomes replaceable.

That change in bureaucracy becomes a change in education because we are no longer preparing our Washington, Lincoln or Hamilton to step up and lead. With merit hiring, we want someone who can do the job as well as the person before. Instead of education for life and leadership, it is education for technological skills. Gone are the days when everyone was prepared for civic and industrial leadership. Like the Borg, we want someone we can just plug in and do the job. No personal judgment needed, just read the policy.

Up front, Stanley has proved himself one of the least-respectable thinkers of hte last 20 years with his constant tirades against reality over the last while - mainly on Twitter, where his a misogynistic dickhead who cannot, if his life depended on it, shut up and listen to a woman.

That said, I think you're right lmao. If everyone know the 'truth' as such, about Trump, it would far, far, far harder to take him seriously and thus vote for him.

His support of Israel equals Hitler. — Athena

This is utterly insane though, sorry.

"His support of Israel equals Hitler.
— Athena

This is utterly insane though, sorry. — AmadeusD

Hmm, the title of this thread is Fascism and Justice. That makes your argument delicious.

Wikipedia say this:

Fascism prioritizes the nation over the individual, who exists to serve the nation." and as "an ultranationalist, authoritarian political philosophy. It combines elements of nationalism, militarism, economic self-sufficiency, and totalitarianism.

What is the best way to unite us against them?

Decades ago, the sociologist Georg Simmel argued that nothing unites a nation, or any group of people for that matter, quite like having a common enemy. Recent research by Mark Landau (professor of psychology, University of Kansas), though not testing unity of groups, does indicate that having enemies provides some psychological benefits. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-big-questions/201110/enemies-enhance-the-meaning-of-life

Trump's position on Palestian makes these people the enemy as surely as Hitler's position on Jews made them the enemy. He is playing into Bush's war on evil and the power and glory of the Christian US. What is being done to the Palestinians is totally unacceptable, but Trump has made anyone who speaks against what Iseal is doing, the enemy. But the enemy is not just the Palestinians and those who defend them, but everyone who was not born in the US and whose parents were not born in the US. The enemy is everyone who is not one of us and the left who have ruined our country. Everyone is out to ruin the US, and therefore, the Right must stand together and fight like hell.

Christians are thrilled with this strong leader just as the Nazi were thrilled with Hitler. Both the followers of Hitler and Trump believe they were treated badly and their country was being ruined, and now it is time to fight like hell to make America great again. And like good Hegel followers, it doesn't matter how much immediate changes are hurting individual citizens because they all should be willing to sacrifice for the glory of the nation.

Both the followers of Hitler and Trump, Biden, Clinton, Churchill, Modi, Ceaucesu, etc... believe they were treated badly and their country was being ruined — Athena

Weak. Not even an argument.

That is your uninformed judgment, you know? For information you need to ask a question, or to make an argument, you need to offer your reasoning, not just your opinion of the strength of my argument.

The military part of the complex has had an influence on civilian rhetoric, rituals, and practices.

Language that was once used exclusively in the military has leaked out into police, fire, first responder forces. Those who died while on duty used to be called fatalities or dead. Now they are called "fallen". Employees of the army used to be called soldiers; now they are called warriors. A fallen warrior has become a secret object.

I found considerable discord at the funeral of a brother who had retired from the army. The family wanted to use several 'martial' gyms and the Methodist pastor rejected their choices as inappropriate. The church did not have American flags in the front of the church. This change had apparently caused a number of veterans to leave the congregation. The ashes urn was covered with a liturgical cloth, rather than the flag which some people wanted. More angst. — BC

I picked up another book with an explanation of how Industry has impacted the military. If that sounds interesting to you, please let me know. I will return to that book for a better understanding. Of course, it makes sense that Industry and the Military would both have an effect on the other, but I didn't think of this.

What is important to me in the discussion of Fascism and Justice, is how we are organized and who has controlling power and who does not.

Money plays a big part in all this. For years, I have tried to wrap my head around the economics of power and control. At the end of WWII, a book warned of the danger of the new relationship between Industry and the Military. I want to know more, and if anyone is aware of the changing bureaucratic models and relationships, please let me know.

If you cannot see the argument, we're in the same place we always are Athena. No matter...

↪Athena If you cannot see the argument, we're in the same place we always are Athena. No matter... — AmadeusD

How can I see what is not there? Do you even know what the subject is? You keep making me the subject of what you have to say, and I am not the subject of this thread. Your opinions are not facts, and you are not making arguments that can move a discussion forward.

I am not sure if anyone is interested in the subject? Maybe it would help to define fascism and what it has to do with injustice?

Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, ...
Source:
Wikipedia

Italy (1922–1943)
The first fascist country was Italy, ruled by Benito Mussolini (Il Duce). The Italian Fascists imposed totalitarian rule and crushed political and intellectual opposition, while promoting economic modernization, traditional social values and a rapprochement with the Roman Catholic Church.
List of fascist movements - Wikipedia

It is the Italians we have to thank for our "government of the people, by the people, for the people," because they resurrected the concept and began the renaissance. If it had not been for them the memory of democracy would be lost in the past.

Why did the Renaissance begin in Italy? Because Rome adopted Greek concepts and had a democracy for a while. While most of Europe had agrarian cultures/ economies, the Itallians were traders and merchants and had a cosmopolitan experience. They studied the old documents with the hope of resurrecting the glory of Rome. So here are people who consider justice is served by reasoning and resolving problems together.

We can see it is hard to maintain a democracy for long. Greeks did not consider a large population capable of having a democracy, and it would be nice to see a few thoughts about this. Can the flip from democracy to authoritarianism be accomplished? Is the relationship between political order and justice understood?

How can I see what is not there? — Athena

Athena, you missing a patently obvious point, literally bolded for your ease is not my issue. Blather all you want.

Athena, you missing a patently obvious point, literally bolded for your ease is not my issue. Blather all you want. — AmadeusD

I went back and checked, and you did not make an argument. You gave a list of people, and I see no meaning to that, except the implication that the "us and them" principle is an effective tool for leaders. Protestants with different beliefs fully enjoy the 'us and them' principle. "Oh boy, we are going to heaven and they are not because we know God's truth and they don't. Some use this intention with more intentionality than others. What is your point?

*sigh*.

All of the names I added result in the exact same claims from their followers. Meaning, "trump and hitler" are not unique, and it has nothing to do with their actual views. EVERYONE gets that from their idols being attacked. Your point is entirely hollow for this reason. It's just spitting in the wind.

All of the names I added result in the exact same claims from their followers. Meaning, "trump and hitler" are not unique, and it has nothing to do with their actual views. EVERYONE gets that from their idols being attacked. Your point is entirely hollow for this reason. It's just spitting in the wind. — AmadeusD

Wow, I can not wrap my head around what you asserted. Before there can be fascism, there has to be experience with Industry and democracy. Hitler and Trump are not just powerful men but they rode political waves and they exercise the same techniques for holding and using power. I don't think this can be said of your list of people.

Maybe more information would help. This is what AI has to say in a Google search

Fascist-leaning groups and ideologies were most visible in the US during the 1920s and 1930s, mirroring the rise of European fascism. These groups, often white supremacist and anti-immigrant, included the Ku Klux Klan and proto-fascist organizations like the Silver Legion. While not as widespread or influential as in Europe, these groups and their ideas influenced American political discourse and contributed to the nation's anxieties during the period.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt (January 30, 1882 – April 12, 1945), also known as FDR, was the 32nd president of the United States, serving from 1933 until his death in 1945.

AI During the Great Depression, fascism gained significant traction as many struggling populations looked for strong, authoritative leadership to restore stability and economic prosperity. Fascist movements often exploited economic hardship and social unrest, scapegoating minorities and promising a return to national greatness. This led to the rise of fascist regimes in countries like Italy and Germany, where they were able to gain power and exert control over the population.

Here is a fun read...

Hoover Excoriates New Deal as Fascism, Demanding A ' ...

The New York Times
https://archive.nytimes.com › library › politics › camp
Hoover Excoriates New Deal as Fascism, Demanding A 'Holy Crusade For Freedom'; Currency Plank Pledges Stabilization. Fear Ex-President Would Picture Another ...

Hoover and Franklin worked together to design Big Government. Programs such as Social Security were not possible without bureaucratic changes, and Hoover was the genius behind the changes.

You might look for information before making another argument.

You might look for information before making another argument. — Athena

I don't think this can be said of your list of people. — Athena

It wasn't. It wasn't intimated. I said something completely different.

You completely and utterly ignored literally everything relevant to my argument and started ranting about a load of other shit. I repeat:

All of the names I added result in the exact same claims from their followers. Meaning, "trump and hitler" are not unique, and it has nothing to do with their actual views. EVERYONE gets that from their idols being attacked. Your point is entirely hollow for this reason. It's just spitting in the wind. — AmadeusD

This stands. If you didn't grasp it (self-admittedly) why the heck did you bother blathering further? LMAOOOO.

This stands. If you didn't grasp it (self-admittedly) why the heck did you bother blathering further? LMAOOOO. — AmadeusD

Why do you insist on being so unpleasant? What changed is not human nature but how it is organized.

[quoted]Yes, governments generally became more powerful following World War II. The war effort led to significant expansion of government authority and spending, particularly in the United States, which emerged as a global superpower. The rise of new international organizations like the United Nations also contributed to the growth of international governance structures.
Here's a more detailed look:
1. Expansion of Government in the United States:
Increased Spending:
The US government substantially increased its spending during the war to finance the military and related activities.
New Agencies and Powers:
New agencies and programs were created to manage the war effort, and some of these agencies and their powers remained in place after the war.
Rise of the Welfare State:
The Social Security Act, passed in 1935, expanded the role of the government in social welfare, and this trend continued after WWII.
Increased Presidential Power:
Presidential power also expanded, as the President took on a larger role in leading the war effort and implementing post-war policies.
2. Rise of Global Superpowers:
United States and Soviet Union:
The US and the Soviet Union emerged as the leading global powers, and both had significant influence on international affairs.
International Organizations:
The creation of the United Nations, according to the National WWII Museum, marked the beginning of a new era of international governance.
3. Economic Growth and its Impact:
Post-War Boom:
.
Many countries experienced significant economic growth in the post-war period, leading to increased government revenues and a larger role for government in managing the economy.
Welfare State Expansion:
.
The economic boom allowed for the expansion of social welfare programs and the increased role of government in providing social security and other benefits.
4. Other Factors:
Rise of the Cold War:
The Cold War between the US and the Soviet Union led to increased military spending and a larger role for government in national security.
Decolonization:
The decline of European colonial empires created new opportunities for governments to take on greater responsibility and influence.
Great Responsibilities and New Global Power | New Orleans
Oct 23, 2020 — World War II transformed the United States from a midlevel global power to the leader of the “free world.” With this r...

The National WWII Museum

World War II and the growth of the U.S. federal government
It has often been claimed that the federal government retained a larger share of resources and authority after World War II becaus...

ScienceDirect.com
Aftermath of World War II - Wikipedia
The aftermath of World War II saw the rise of two global superpowers, the United States (U.S.) and the Soviet Union (USSR).

https://www.google.com/search?q=governments+more+powerful+since+WWII&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&oq=governments+more+powerful+since+WWII&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRigATIHCAQQIRigATIHCAUQIRifBTIHCAYQIRifBTIHCAcQIRifBdIBCjE3NzEzajBqMTWoAgiwAgHxBbi34xXD4MSi8QW4t-MVw-DEog&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 [/quote]

I don't. I choose my battles - and when it comes to you, you're either trolling or incapable of clearly reading things. So my responses might be unpleasant to you - Not my choice, and not my issue.

You continue to do so. Well done.