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Can our choices ever be free from determinants, constraints and consequences? — Truth Seeker

Sure. Just choose the other determinant, constraint, or consequence.

We don't get to create the whole world out of nothing, but we can choose amongst the options available which are constrained by various determinants, constraints, and consequences, but choice still remains.

and what does it mean, then, for free choices to exist? Free from what or free to what?

Knowledge and reason are specifically developed to constrain our choices.

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It's the genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences that determine the choices and the constraints. The consequences of the choices occur according to causality.

What evidence do you have to support your claim that choices free from determinants, constraints and consequences exist?

Knowledge and reason are specifically developed to constrain our choices. — T Clark

Nice.

If you are satisfied that all is determined, why ask about it?

Would it change something?

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why do you think there are choices that are free from all those things? especially consequences, that seems weird. that's like... anti-physics. "every action has an equal and opposite reaction". it's directly against physics to say that there are choices without consequences.

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Genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences don't merely influence our choices. They determine our choices, and they constrain our choices.

We are our genes. We are our experiences. So if genes and experiences determine our choices, then we determine our choices.

Nutrients and environments may have certain effects on our biology, but they cannot determine our choices because at no point do they control the sensory-motor architecture of our bodies.

We are our genes. We are our experiences. So if genes and experiences determine our choices, then we determine our choices.

Nutrients and environments may have certain effects on our biology, but they cannot determine our choices because at no point do they control the sensory-motor architecture of our bodies. — NOS4A2

We are not our genes. We are not our experiences. Our genes precede us. They contain the blueprint for our construction. Our environments allow us to live. If I were abducted by aliens and left stranded in the vacuum of space, I would die. My homeostasis depends on the environment I am in. Our nutrients are the building blocks e.g. protein that make us. Our experiences shape our neural pathways.

If you are satisfied that all is determined, why ask about it?

Would it change something? — Paine

To see if others agree or disagree with me. I would be happy to be proven wrong. If anyone can prove me wrong, please do so.

I just made a case. That's not free of consequences. That's my case.

We are not our genes. We are not our experiences. Our genes precede us. They contain the blueprint for our construction. Our environments allow us to live. If I were abducted by aliens and left stranded in the vacuum of space, I would die. My homeostasis depends on the environment I am in. Our nutrients are the building blocks e.g. protein that make us. Our experiences shape our neural pathways.

Try to point to your genes and experiences. What else in the universe besides yourself are you pointing at?

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I don't see how anything I said lead to that response from you. I have a theory of everything because I believe actions have consequences? What are you talking about?

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it just feels like your words don't connect to anything. Bookkeeping the consequences of that on me? Mate, are you okay?

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Try to point to your genes and experiences. What else in the universe besides yourself are you pointing at? — NOS4A2

My sense of self is generated by my neural activities. This sense of self vanishes when I am in a dreamless sleep or in a coma or under general anaesthesia or dead.

My genes reside in my cells. They are not "me" or my sense of self.

My experiences are subjective, and only I have first-person access to them. Just as your experiences are subjective, and only you have first-person access to them.

I will discuss Quantum Mechanics just in case you are interested.

1. Quantum Indeterminacy
What it means: Certain properties (like position, momentum, or time of decay) cannot be precisely predicted — only probabilities can be assigned.

Applies to: Fundamental particles like electrons, photons, etc.

Implication: There's no hidden variable or deterministic mechanism beneath (according to standard interpretations like Copenhagen).

2. Quantum Superposition
What it means: A particle can exist in multiple states (e.g., both spin-up and spin-down) simultaneously until it is measured.

Famous example: Schrödinger’s cat — alive and dead until observed.

3. Quantum Decoherence
What it means: Interaction with the environment (like air molecules or photons) destroys superpositions by entangling the quantum system with its surroundings.

Effect: The quantum system appears to "collapse" into a definite state without needing an observer.

Why it matters: This explains why macroscopic objects don't show superpositions — the quantum effects average out or become smeared by environmental interactions.

So What Happens at the Macroscopic Level?
Neurons, brains, cats, and humans are made up of trillions of particles.

The quantum randomness of individual particles is overwhelmed by the stability and interactions of billions of them — thanks to decoherence.

Hence, we don’t see quantum strangeness at our scale — only deterministic-like classical behavior.

Philosophical Implication:
Because of decoherence, quantum mechanics doesn't give us libertarian free will, nor does it falsify hard determinism at the level of human decisions. It just replaces classical predictability with probabilistic causality, which behaves deterministically on large scales.

Can our choices ever be free from determinants, constraints and consequences [spacetime+localiy]? — Truth Seeker

No. One's "choices" can be – often are – "free from" one's awareness or volition (or awareness / volition of others). The more one is unaware of the causal / consequential path(s) of one's own "choice" the more one is unware that that "choice" is not, in fact, "free from determinants, constraints and consequences" (like e.g. flying in dreams).

IMO, I've never seen the remotest evidence the QM/QT has anytying whatsoever do to with classical-scale (local) agency. Bad physics / science –> pseudo philosophy –> dumbs down too many TPF thread topics like this lately.

If you say you can make free choices then I will ask whether you believe it is reasonable to think your choices are preceded by neural activity that leads to, gives rise to, the choices?

If you think it is reasonable to think that, then I will ask whether you were aware of that neural activity, and whether you somehow engineered it.

Also, it depends on what you mean by "free choice". Are your choices free if you are under no external constraints that prevent you from acting according to your nature? We don't create our own natures. As Schopenhauer observed: "A man can do what he wills, but not will what he wills,"

I misread the poll.

I should've said 'no'. I don't htink they can ever be free from those influences.

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My sense of self is generated by my neural activities. This sense of self vanishes when I am in a dreamless sleep or in a coma or under general anaesthesia or dead.

My genes reside in my cells. They are not "me" or my sense of self.

My experiences are subjective, and only I have first-person access to them. Just as your experiences are subjective, and only you have first-person access to them.

Are none of these of your own unique biology, as it exists through space and time?

If no free choices exist, what becomes of notions of free v. unfree choices? They're rendered nonsensical. — tim wood

I didn't claim an "absolute ... "unfree choices". In effect, IME, our "notions" are enabled – instantiated – by our practices (e.g. "choices', habits, etc), and not the other way around as you suggest.

:up: :up: