Why did Cleopatra not play Rock'n'Roll?

Quk

The ancient Egyptians had drums and string instruments. So, theoretically, they were able to produce Rock'n'Roll sounds and rhythms.

Why took it thousands of years until Rock music became popular?

Is there an aesthetical link between the sounds of the industrial era and the sounds of Rock music? Can Rock only work in an industrial environment? Or is that pure coincidence?

Does our contemporary music automatically imitate the sound of our contemporary environment? When we live in forests, will our music always sound like a forest?

After the introduction of Rock'n'Roll, which was a huge step in musical history, there was another leap: Sterile computer music. Computers introduced trivial beeping sounds for alerts and indications. Ugly stuff. Some decades later the humans got used to these sterile sounds, developped romantic stories around these beeps, so they lost their sterility and could be integrated in emotional music.

Sounds that initially seem ugly become beautiful after some decades just because the humans get used to it?

Do new musical sounds indicate that we have accepted a new environment?

When the baroque era started, for example, it was a new way of life, a new environment, new dressing fashion, new talking style, new body attitude. The music reflected it. -- Similarly, computer music reflects glitter and aluminum costumes. Rock reflects Jeans, leather, motors and machines. But ... isn't Rock music more than that? I think Rock music is a way of life, and it implies a special humour and a great freedom. That must be compatible with some other eras at various places worldwide in the past 10,000 years.

(I think Beethoven was one the first famous Rock'n'Rollers.)

Outlander

How would one know what was played (or not played) and how, prior to the invention of recorded audio? At the very least the modern (surviving, therefore decipherable) form of notated musical record (ie. sheet music)? :chin:

Quk

Good question. I forgot to mention another element of rock music. Initially I mentioned the sound of drums and string instruments, and certain rhythms. But what about the pentatonic scale? I think that's another typical element of "pure" rock music. Archeologists found ancient Egyptian flutes. When we play these we hear no pentatonic scale. So one may conclude they didn't use pentatonic scales at all.

Well, is the pentatonic scale really necessary? There are a lot of rock music styles that include non-pentatonic scales. But they feel like ... fusion, not like "pure" Rock'n'Roll. On the other hand, what can be "pure" anyway? Nothing. -- Panta rhei. -- Nevertheless, I also mentioned a certain way of life, a certain humour and freedom. It's about a certain feeling. The feeling I'm talking about cannot be expressed by the scale of those ancient flutes. The only remaining elements which may approach Rock'n'Roll are the Egyptian sounds; I mean their drums per se and their string instruments per se. I think that's not enough.

Wayfarer

Why took it thousands of years until Rock music became popular? — Quk

Had to invent the Fender amp first, and they didn't have electronics. Nor, for that matter, Levi's jeans.

(I think Beethoven was one the first famous Rock'n'Rollers.) — Quk

Roll Over Beethoven

Quk

↪Wayfarer

Re Beethoven's Rock'n'Roll elements: I'm thinking of his 6. and 7. symphony, among others. (And his powerful yet lovely urge for freedom, accompanied by a big "wall of sound". No Fender amps, no Marshalls, no VOX AC 30s required for that. And ... did he wear a white wig? No, just natural wild hair, haha.)

Tom Storm

Sounds that initially seem ugly become beautiful after some decades just because the humans get used to it? — Quk

I think this is true for music and the visual arts. Yes, ugliness may reside in something being unfamiliar but how do we compare this to something that remains ugly? I'm not big on essentialist categories like beauty and ugliness.

Personally I've never developed a taste for rock music.

What counts as rock in your book? It's an umbrella term like 'crime' or 'transport'. I'd struggle to hear Beethoven in this vein. A 'big wall of sound' and 'freedom' are exceptionally amorphous concepts and apply in a range of domains. You could be talking Mahler's Second or Chopin's Revolutionary Etude.

When I think of rock, I mostly think of white musicians appropriating Black music; along with a lot of posturing and conceit.

Quk

What counts as rock in your book? — Tom Storm

Short answer: In my book, Rock is the opposite to Mahler and Chopin.

Tom Storm

Short answer: In my book, Rock is the opposite to Mahler and Chopin. — Quk

What counts as rock in your book? It's an umbrella term like 'crime' or 'transport'. I'd struggle to hear Beethoven in this vein. A 'big wall of sound' and 'freedom' are exceptionally amorphous concepts and apply in a range of domains. — Tom Storm

Can you provide some key indicators or is thsi just how it 'feels' to you personally?

To say Mahler is the opposite of rock means your idea of a “big wall of sound” and “freedom” needs some clarification, because that’s exactly what Mahler’s 2nd is about and evokes. Same goes for the Revolutionary Étude, which is loud as hell and all about freedom.

If these works don’t meet your criteria, that’s fine, but help us understand the thinking.

Quk

↪Tom Storm

Before I describe the details: Where should I start? What's your technical background? Are you familiar with music-theoretical terms like "pentatonic scale", "swing rhythm" etc. and sound-engineering terms like "compression", "loudness" etc. pp.? If you're asking for details, there are so many factors. Where should I start?

Wayfarer

Where should I start? — Quk

Probably in the 1950's, with American radio.

BC

Is there an aesthetical link between the sounds of the industrial era and the sounds of Rock music? Can Rock only work in an industrial environment? Or is that pure coincidence? — Quk

Someone told an early 20th century composer, Arnold Schoenberg, maybe, that they didn't like all of the dissonance and noise of contemporary music. He told them they were born in the wrong century.

Per Karl Marx, the state of production (industry, the economy, etc.) has a strong influence on culture--music, for instance. I'm not knowledgeable about how, exactly, the instruments that were played in 1600 were modified or newly invented over the course of the following 400 years, but they were. Just compare an 1750 piano with a 1950 piano. The Saxophone was invented in 1846. Consider that the first musical recording was in 1888--pretty primitive. Then came 78 rpm record; 33 rpm records; stereo records; audio tape recordings; CD recordings; etc. The first radio broadcast of music was 1906. The quality of radio broadcasts continuously improved.

All the changes that have arisen since the late 19th century industries has made huge changes in how we experience music, and yes, in the music itself.

What Cleopatra didn't have, among other things, was electricity. It would be difficult for any rock and roll band in the last 75 years to create the sound we associate with rock and roll without amplification of instruments and voices. It takes more than a drum and simple harp to do rock and roll.

There is something to the idea that rock and roll also requires sex and drugs. The ancient world had both, but, you know, without a disco ball, a few electric guitars, drum sets, microphones, huge base speakers and powerful amplifiers and all, it just doesn't work.

Tom Storm

Probably in the 1950's, with American radio. — Wayfarer

Ha! Yes, this and people like Ike Turner.

If you're asking for details, there are so many factors. Where should I start? — Quk

How about you start with what you already began?

You said this, explain:

Rock is the opposite to Mahler and Chopin. — Quk

Why?

powerful yet lovely urge for freedom, accompanied by a big "wall of sound" — Quk

Why? Explain. For instance, how do you delineate the difference between the climax in Beethoven compared to Mahler?

No need for references to sound engineering or musical terms but if you feel you need to do so go ahead.

Wayfarer

Ha! Yes, this and people like Ike Turner. — Tom Storm

legend has it that a DJ (name escapes me) starting using 'rocking and rolling' (predictably sailor's slang) in place of Rythm and Blues, which is was associated with (ahem) colored folk. (Well, it was the fifties.)

BC

Where should I start? — Quk

You might rummage through popular music of the 20th century to look for the antecedents of Rock and Roll. It didn't just burst on the scene without precedents. That doesn't take anything away from its genius or originality. Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms all had antecedents, too. "There is nothing new under the sun!" Nothing totally new, anyway, 99% of the time.

When I was a young man in the 1960s (or a boy in the 1950s) I didn't especially like rock and roll. Now, pushing 80, I very much enjoy listening to music from that era (not all of it, of course). And I still like Chopin, Mozart, Bach, Praetorius, et al.

Jamal

Is there an aesthetical link between the sounds of the industrial era and the sounds of Rock music? Can Rock only work in an industrial environment? Or is that pure coincidence?

Does our contemporary music automatically imitate the sound of our contemporary environment? When we live in forests, will our music always sound like a forest? — Quk

The crucial technological changes took place in jazz shortly before rock n roll: amplification to allow guitars to be heard over the other instruments, and microphones for recording, which had the effect of changing the way singers sang.

But does this result in sounds that are reminiscent of the technology itself? With amplification, sort of sometimes, particularly when rock n roll developed into rock in the mid to late 60s (with lots of distortion and feedback). With singing, not really. To my ears, the softer, more subtle, more intimate singing of the era of recording, with all the timbral complexity and diversity, is a lot less ugly than operatic singing, which is relatively one-dimensional and usually quite offensive (again, to my ears).

So with singing at least, the technology actually emphasized the humanity of the voice.

Banno

↪Quk

I'm not going for the technical explanations.

Rock is the child of blues and jazz, and these in turn needed slavery and poverty. There were plenty of both in Ancient Egypt.

So back to this: How do you know that there wasn't Rock in Thebes? Perhaps it was played in the back streets. Very little of the music from way back survives - you can hear recreations of it on line, but these are somewhat dubious.

Perhaps what was missing was the equivalent of Elvis and Bill Haley - white men to rip of the traditional music of the Nubians and turn a profit.

Tom Storm

To my ears, the softer, more subtle, more intimate singing of the era of recording, with all the timbral complexity and diversity, is a lot less ugly than operatic singing, which is relatively one-dimensional and usually quite offensive (again, to my ears). — Jamal

You're right, it is subjective, my father enjoyed opera and thought the range and texture of singing was so much more refined and relatable than the 'screaming banalities' of rock music. I guess it's what we're used to. It's certainly the case that more people can participate in rock, no matter how idiosyncratic and odd their voice might be.

If we are talking about ancient Egypt then I wonder if the blues is a more apposite comparison. Did the pyramid builders sing away like the slaves of the old South?

Jamal

You're right, it is subjective, my father enjoyed opera and thought the range and texture of singing was so much more refined and relatable than the 'screaming banalities' of rock music. I guess it's what we're used to. It's certainly the case that more people can participate in rock, no matter how idiosyncratic and odd their voice might be. — Tom Storm

Rock music does have a lot of screaming banality, but I wouldn't say that exemplifies microphone singing. Think instead of Billie Holiday (soft and emotionally expressive), Bing Crosby (relaxed, conversational), Leonard Cohen (you get the idea).

The differences are real, not merely in the ear of the beholder.

Jamal

On the other hand, the microphone could be seen to have allowed music to return to a time before concert halls. It allowed singers to sing like they used to sing in taverns and forest glades (in my imagination).

But there's a danger of seeing a linear progression here. People still sing in taverns.

Tom Storm

The differences are real, not merely in the ear of the beholder.
30m — Jamal

I have no issue with that. I was quoting my dad who was echoing you on opera. I think the invention of the mic ushered in unparalleled vocal nuance and creativity. My dad heard many gradients of subtlety in the better operas and performances. I am not personally an opera fan although I consider Strauss’ last songs to be exceptional. But we’re back to personal taste.

Jamal

↪Tom Storm

Cool. I just wanted to emphasize the objective element of technological affordance (I won't say determinism) and the co-evolution of technology and music. Not everyone goes along with it!

To put personal taste in perspective we could (a) identify the equivalent changes---less obviously technological, perhaps more social---that led to operatic singing, demonstrating that no type of music is orginary; and (b) at the same time notice that in all styles and eras of music there are gradients of subtlety. A personal preference for one style might tempt one to claim that its gradients of subtlety are finer than those of others.

Wayfarer

I seem to recall Bill Haley and the Comets 'Rock Around the Clock' is often said to be the first bona fide world-wide rock'n'roll hit song, although Wikipedia adds 'In terms of its wide cultural impact across society in the US and elsewhere, Bill Haley's "Rock Around the Clock", recorded in April 1954 but not a commercial success until the following year, is generally recognized as an important milestone, but it was preceded by many recordings from earlier decades in which elements of rock and roll can be clearly discerned.'

On music technology - I've learned to use Apple Logic Pro to produce and master songs, not that any of them have ever received commercial attention. But it's not hard to discern the presence of such digital music workstation technology in today's music, because of its crystalline precision and sound separation - all the layers clearly defined and balanced. Plus the ability to utilise any kind of instrumental sounds and vocal effects without even leaving your desk.

Jamal

I have some difficulty with Adorno's view that the kind of singing I've been celebrating here---the close microphone technique enabled by recording technology---is a domestication and commodification of the voice, such that operatic singing, even though it was as historical as popular music, at least strove for truth, whereas the latter strives to please the masses. I'm wondering how I can do more to argue against this than assert my personal taste.

One angle: if we agree that truth is in self-expression, then the singing in popular music is, or can be, much more truthful, because it is not at the whim of a composer and doesn't have to satisfy the particular requirements forced upon it by large concert halls and huge orchestras; thus there is greater vocal individuality and directness of expression enabled by a technology which, nevertheless, is used to produce commodities.

ssu

Just as Banno and others have said, Rock'n'Roll is a historical synthesis of various musical genres which themselves have long musical and cultural histories. Popular music and especially the ability for masses to hear popular music through radio and through recordings creates a totally new environment for music, just as literature war revolutionized by the printing press. Besides, music has been a social and cultural event. Notice that there being a "Youth Culture" in general is something quite new. Hence the idea that you could play the Rock'N'Roll tunes with the instruments that they had in Egypt doesn't take into account all the things that actually have created those vibes that we notices that some music is rock'n'roll. It isn't just the music itself, it's far more than that.

If you even listen to music from the early Renaissance, you can notice the very obvious difference to later classical music of Bach and Mozart. Music has gone through quite many revolutions when we come to Rock'N'Roll from the Egyptian times.

Tom Storm

Cool. I just wanted to emphasize the objective element of technological affordance (I won't say determinism) and the co-evolution of technology and music. Not everyone goes along with it! — Jamal

A friend's sister was a jazz singer here in Australia. One Christmas, about twenty years ago, we were listening to some of her recordings. My friend said to me, "You realize if it wasn't for the microphone she wouldn't have a career. It helped create an art form." I’d never thought about it until then.

Banno

I seem to recall Bill Haley and the Comets 'Rock Around the Clock' is often said to be the first bona fide world-wide rock'n'roll hit song... — Wayfarer

Nuh.

Here's the start:

a queer black woman in the 1940s named Sister Rosetta Tharpe.

Jamal

A friend's sister was a jazz singer here in Australia. One Christmas, about twenty years ago, we were listening to some of her recordings. My friend said to me, "You realize if it wasn't for the microphone she wouldn't have a career. It helped create an art form." I’d never thought about it until then. — Tom Storm

Exactly. You're way ahead of me because I hadn't really thought about it till quite recently.

ssu

After the introduction of Rock'n'Roll, which was a huge step in musical history, there was another leap: Sterile computer music. Computers introduced trivial beeping sounds for alerts and indications. Ugly stuff. — Quk

And oh, just wait until you have AI making music. Now it's just sound generators, but I'm sure it will be composing, writing the lyrics, the whole show. Want to have a philharmonic orchestra playing in the back, no problem! Put Freddie Mercury -type to sing? Of course, change it to Madonna with a push of a button. :vomit:

AI made music pushed up in the charts by bots. Yeah, who needs humans at all with music?