• Martijn
    27
    Greetings,

    Today, I would like to discuss a concept prominent within philosophy and religion: the nature of suffering. I'd like to share my view on this concept and would love to hear different perspectives, where others may agree or disagree, or point out my blind spots.

    There seem to be three layers of suffering: inherent, literal, and mental. I shall delve into each of these in this post, to explain what I mean by these 'layers.'

    1. Inherent suffering. Suffering seems to be inherent to life, as pretty much all life forms on this planet require energy from other life forms to survive, be nourished, and grow, with humans being no exception. (Plants might be exceptions, since they primarily require sunlight and water, but that is beside the point.)

    Entropy — the natural state of the universe to dissolve into disorder, decay, and death — appears to be the dominant force in our reality. Life is fleeting and often a struggle for most animals and other life forms. Survival means struggling, competition can be brutal, we all grow older, weaker, and more fragile over time, and death is inevitable. Nobody actually knows why life is like this; it just is. We may ask God to come down here and explain the mess He has created, or point fingers at fate, karma, a cosmic governance, absurdism, aliens, or any other idea or concept you can come up with to explain how life works, yet the fundamental truth remains: life just is. Until it isn't.

    As the Buddha taught us, accepting inherent suffering is crucial, because there is no way around it. Everyone we know will one day be gone. The only thing we can do (besides accepting this truth) is to bear and raise children, or to leave our legacy behind in some other manner, but these are fleeting as well. Many people have children due to their biological imperative, which is all too reasonable, yet we seldom question the deeper motives. Do people desire to have children to leave behind a legacy, or create purpose? My personal view on this is that having children should be a personal choice grounded in wisdom and hesitation, and that there is no 'right' or 'wrong' answer regarding the question of when or why you should (or should not) have children.

    2. Literal suffering. Literal suffering mainly refers to pain or external events that literally harm you. If you get punched in the face, it will hurt, and you will suffer. Of course, you hold some influence over how much you suffer, since you do have some power in choosing how to respond to this event; however, the physical, factual event of getting punched in the face causes pain, and therefore literal suffering. The same holds true for most other forms of literal or physical pain.

    This form of suffering seems inherent to living organisms. A rock would not feel pain when thrown, as this is obvious, but does a tree feel pain when it is being cut down? Animals can certainly feel pain - anyone who's stepped on their dog's paws by accident understands this - yet we aren't sure to what extent they experience it. A curious insight to remember is that looking at a physical wound or external bleeding amplifies the physical suffering, perhaps you've noticed this from personal experience? If you seriously injure yourself, then the amount of pain you feel can be amplified (or reduced) based on your awareness of this injury. Simply looking away, to no longer focus on the injury but to direct your attention elsewhere, actually reduces the pain you feel. Mind-bending, isn't it?

    In a sense, literal suffering stems from evolution and biology, as a way for living organisms to avoid danger and to protect the physical body. Since evolution is about survival and reproduction, any tool, method, or strategy to help the organism survive will propagate itself and be passed on genetically. Pain has been a highly effective tool (or teacher) in helping organisms survive, which is why it still exists the way it does today. Fortunately, unlike inherent suffering, literal suffering can be partially managed by avoiding harmful behaviours and mitigating risks, although safety is never a guarantee.

    3. Mental suffering. Unlike the other two forms of suffering, mental suffering is fully within one's control. Many philosophers have pointed out that it is not external events that cause suffering, but one's responses to it. If your partner passes away, you might become overwhelmed with grief and depression, yet the stranger living across the street will not lose sleep over it. Death is often viewed as negative and something to be avoided, while in truth it is part of the same cycle of life: it is inevitable and natural. Therefore, struggling to deal with the loss of a loved one causes mental suffering, but only in the amount and duration you choose. This is why some people are exceptional at 'moving on', while others struggle dealing with their grief for years.

    Your judgements or attachments to events, both positive and negative, determine the amount of suffering or joy you experience from said event. I am not claiming you should be fully detached from all lived experiences, as if to become so enlightened that literally nothing fazes you until you die (although this is an option for a tiny minority), but to be fully aware of the truth that mental suffering is self-made. This is not to deny that other people can be nasty, cruel, or harmful, as activities like bullying or applying physical violence to others are certainly real in our world, but that the amount you suffer from these activities is within your control. Here in the West, we don't teach this to our children, as we instead teach others to not bully, or to rely on authority figures to solve problems. In truth, this enables weakness and a victimhood complex, and it leads to disastrous consequences like suicidal ideation in teenagers. Obviously, bullying is harmful and should not be encouraged. I'm simply stating the truth that there will always be people who will try to bring you down or harm you, and that avoiding them or placing responsibility elsewhere is nonsensical and futile. At the end of the day, you are the only botanist of your inner garden.

    There is raw power here, within our reach. Despite all the chaos, injustice, and inherent suffering found in reality and our world, we always hold the ability to choose how to respond to whatever happens. The insight that mental suffering is entirely within one's control is profoundly liberating, and applying this wisdom to your personal life offers an immense amount of stillness and strength—virtues much needed in our world today (at least in my opinion).


    Perhaps this topic is a little bit uncomfortable, as talking about heavy topics such as illness, suffering, and death can be unpleasant, and I am well aware of all this. Unfortunately, I am just a man who's had to endure a lot of suffering, even during childhood, and surely most people can relate. Life is rough sometimes. All of this more or less pushed me into philosophy, to gain a deeper understanding of life, the mind (and how to control it), and how to live with inner peace, stillness, and purpose in a world that often feels apathetic and cold.

    Any insights or different perspectives are greatly appreciated, and thank you for reading.
  • Wayfarer
    24.7k
    As the Buddha taught us, accepting inherent suffering is crucial, because there is no way around it.Martijn

    Nevertheless, the Buddha is also said to have taught that suffering has a cause, and also an end, and that there is a way to the end of suffering. Whether that can be a real possibility is, I suppose, a matter of faith, but I at least can see the logic of the claim (although granted it requires recognition of states of being beyond that which naturalism can envisage.)

    Arthur Schopenhauer, a German philosopher I admire, also had a lot to say about suffering, its cause, and the ability to transcend it through aesthetic contemplation and the reduction of craving, although I don’t see him as having fully realised the Buddhist path, despite his professed admiration for Eastern philosophies.

    Your points about mastering detachment and overcoming self-induced mental torment are well made, and suggestive of the kind of stoicism that has become quite a popular movement in revivals of ancient philosophies. I’ve learned to let go of harmful and negative thoughts to some extent, which is indeed liberating, although there remain many forms of suffering which are quite outside one’s conscious control, or so it seems to me.

    But, overall, a wise and mature post about a topic that ought to be of interest to everyone.
  • AmadeusD
    3.3k
    Enjoy the thread - Can't add much more than Wayfarer has said.

    Perhaps I would add that that account doesn't seem to engage literal suffering, as laid out here. That seems to be something that, to avoid, would be to dismiss some of one's humanity.
  • T Clark
    15k
    Today, I would like to discuss a concept prominent within philosophy and religion: the nature of suffering. I'd like to share my view on this concept and would love to hear different perspectives, where others may agree or disagree, or point out my blind spots.Martijn

    My first response to your post is that what you have described is your experience of suffering, not everyone's, although, clearly, a lot of the experiences you describe are common to most of us.

    There seem to be three layers of suffering: inherent, literal, and mental. I shall delve into each of these in this post, to explain what I mean by these 'layers.'Martijn

    My understanding, based on personal experience and reading philosophy, psychology, history, fiction, and poetry is that we are all responsible for our own suffering. Maybe that means all suffering is what you call "mental." I am no student of Buddhism, but I think the Four Noble Truths can provide important insights - 1) For most of us, suffering is unavoidable, 2) The cause of suffering is desire, 3) There is a way to overcome desire and thus suffering, and 4) Buddhists have specific disciplines and following them can lead to an end to desire.

    Based on my own experience, Truths One and Two are pretty straightforward and are accessible to self-awareness. Truth Three is the hard part. I have been struggling with it, desiring it, for most of my life. Truth Four describes a path which is not mine.

    Life is fleeting and often a struggle for most animals and other life forms. Survival means struggling, competition can be brutal, we all grow older, weaker, and more fragile over time, and death is inevitable.Martijn

    Is it true that all life is a violent, competitive struggle? I think that's a naive way of looking at it. Sure, animals get eaten, people get sick and die. But much of life is also cooperative. The older I get, the less and less death feels like a bad thing. I'm in no hurry, but I wouldn't want to live forever.

    Literal suffering mainly refers to pain or external events that literally harm you.Martijn

    Pain is not the same thing as suffering, at least not in the context we are discussing.

    Unlike the other two forms of suffering, mental suffering is fully within one's control.Martijn

    Earlier in this post I said we are responsible for our own suffering. That being said, suffering is not "fully within one's control" except for a tiny fraction of humanity. Certainly not for me.

    Here in the West, we don't teach this to our children, as we instead teach others to not bully, or to rely on authority figures to solve problems. In truth, this enables weakness and a victimhood complex, and it leads to disastrous consequences like suicidal ideation in teenagers.Martijn

    Are you saying we shouldn't protect vulnerable people from violence? That certainly doesn't make sense to me.

    Many people have children due to their biological imperative, which is all too reasonable, yet we seldom question the deeper motives. Do people desire to have children to leave behind a legacy, or create purpose?Martijn

    At bottom, I think people have children because it is what we are built to do. It's part of our biological and social nature. That doesn't mean one can't decide not to. Again, speaking from personal experience, thoughts of legacy or fulfillment did not enter into it when my wife and I decided to have children. If there was any conscious desire beyond a fundamental human one, it was to give a gift to our families and society because we were grateful for those that came before who allowed us to have our lives.

    I don't know much about you, but I think you've probably had a much more difficult life than I have. I don't deny your personal experience, but it's not how all of us feel.
  • Martijn
    27


    You are right that the amout we suffer in life can vary wildly. We all have our stories, our backgrounds, our unique views on the world, and so on. Although I do still believe there is inherent suffering on Earth, the amount each human suffers on a day-to-day basis is different based on an innumerable amount of factors, most of which are beyond our control.

    For cooperation: yes, ofcourse there is cooperation in life, especially in human history. But looking at the very fundamental level at which life operates, it's about combating entropy. Staying alive is work. A living organism that does nothing will wither and die eventually. We all need energy, nourishment, and rest. Try to stop sleeping and see where it leads you, or starve yourself intentionally, and you will die. I am talking at the deepest, fundamental level at which life works in our universe. It's a rebellion against entropy, which is fascinating and beautiful in my opinion, but also harsh. Every day, millions (if not billions) of living organisms are killed to nourish others (mostly humans), or they fall ill and succumb early, or miscarriages happen, and so on. There is no inherent justice or karma in life, it is seemingly extremely random, ambivalent, and unfair to human minds. Those who experience suffering first-hand, especially at a young age, typically awaken much earlier to this harsh truth. If your life is all pleasant, easy, and fair, then life seems like paradise. Until your parents pass away, or your best friend silently leaves you, or your partner cheats on you, and then you don't know what to do, because your worldview was shattered.

    This is also why creating a genuinely fair, just, and meaningful world is so important. Humans are intelligent, cooperative, adaptive, and creative enough to create a world that is in accordance to our needs, where we genuinely care for each other, we don't discriminate, we don't condone violence or racism, and so on. But we now live in a competitive free-for-all, and it's been absolutely disasterous to our spirit. It is not normal that millions of people suffer from mental illness, or physical health issues like obesity, or the immense loneliness that so many feel, or the disconnect and agitation between the sexes. Why don't we create a world where we are free again: free to love, to be ourselves and to be different, free to create meaningful and beautiful art, and free to explore the wilds again. Why can't we return to our legacy.....

    You will only empathize with me if you've also been to this depth of despair. This is not stated out of arrogance, but out of truth. I've been neglected, bullied, rejected, and i've had to deal with illness and loss at a young age. There is no doubt this shaped my worldview and even made me somewhat bitter, although I do my best not to falter to nihilism. But i've experienced the cruelty, apathy, and injustice in our world first-hand, especially since I am 'lower class'. When you view the world from my perspective, everything I've said so far will make sense.

    Pain is not suffering but i'd classify it as some part of it. If you injure yourself physically, don't you suffer physically aswell? Pain can be a broad concept but I was mostly referring to literal or physical pain, like injuring yourself in a literal sense.

    And for protection: yes, I stated that. We should prevent bullying and protect the most vulnerable in society. However, that is not the same as enabling a victimhood complex or deluding ourselves that life is always fair and nice. We should both teach our children to be kind and empathetic, but also to take control of their own emotional and mental well-being. They are not mutually exclusive.
  • Tom Storm
    10k
    Unlike the other two forms of suffering, mental suffering is fully within one's control.Martijn

    Unless they have a mental illness.

    I also think that it is unrealistic to say to a mother who has lost her entire family to mass murder by a dictator, for example, that her suffering is within her control. There are events that occur from which only a sociopath could remain immune.

    And I wonder about the fixation some have to shun the experience of suffering? Is there a salient reason why suffering should not be experienced in full on occasions? Is suffering not something human, tangible, appropriate and perhaps even useful in certain circumstances? For me, the desire to detach oneself or overcome suffering seems suspect.

    There’s another category of suffering I could probably call esteem deprivation syndrome. This is the intense pain some people feel when they fail to gain glory, fame, or status, despite dedicating enormous time and effort to a crusade to be known or recognised in some way. We see a lot of this as people's vanity and ambition go unappreciated. This form of suffering would seem to be entirely self-inflicted and futile, but perhaps I'm being harsh.
  • T Clark
    15k
    Although I do still believe there is inherent suffering on Earth, the amount each human suffers on a day-to-day basis is different based on an innumerable amount of factors, most of which are beyond our control.Martijn

    Again I'll say - pain, either physical or psychological, is not the same as suffering, at least not in the context of how we're discussing it.

    Staying alive is work. A living organism that does nothing will wither and die eventually. We all need energy, nourishment, and rest. Try to stop sleeping and see where it leads you, or starve yourself intentionally, and you will die. I am talking at the deepest, fundamental level at which life works in our universe. It's a rebellion against entropy, which is fascinating and beautiful in my opinion, but also harsh.Martijn

    Yes, work is necessary, but work is also not suffering.

    Every day, millions (if not billions) of living organisms are killed to nourish others (mostly humans),Martijn

    Yes, billions, maybe trillions, of organisms every day, and most definitely not going to nourish humans. That doesn't seem relevant to me.

    Those who experience suffering first-hand, especially at a young age, typically awaken much earlier to this harsh truth. If your life is all pleasant, easy, and fair, then life seems like paradise. Until your parents pass away, or your best friend silently leaves you, or your partner cheats on you, and then you don't know what to do, because your worldview was shattered.Martijn

    My life is not a paradise, but from what you've written it's much less difficult than yours has been. I say this as an objective fact, not a complaint - I have suffered and that suffering has almost nothing to do with physical pain, the pain of losing those that I love, or fear of death. It's suffering I've brought on myself. I think I know what Buddha meant when he said it is caused by desire. I am much more familiar with Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching and he says something similar. It's the truth, but it's not a particularly harsh truth.

    This is also why creating a genuinely fair, just, and meaningful world is so important. Humans are intelligent, cooperative, adaptive, and creative enough to create a world that is in accordance to our needs, where we genuinely care for each other, we don't discriminate, we don't condone violence or racism, and so on...

    ...Why don't we create a world where we are free again: free to love, to be ourselves and to be different, free to create meaningful and beautiful art, and free to explore the wilds again. Why can't we return to our legacy.....
    Martijn

    I don't think this perfect world you describe is possible. That's why focusing on inner strength and peace is so important. What makes you say we were ever free to do the wonderful things you describe? In what era was the legacy you describe exist?

    But we now live in a competitive free-for-all, and it's been absolutely disasterous to our spirit. It is not normal that millions of people suffer from mental illness, or physical health issues like obesity, or the immense loneliness that so many feel, or the disconnect and agitation between the sexes.Martijn

    The world doesn't feel like a competitive free-for-all to me. I recognize I've led a fortunate life, but, as I've noted, most of the maladies you describe represent sickness of the individual spirit.

    Pain is not suffering but i'd classify it as some part of it. If you injure yourself physically, don't you suffer physically aswell? Pain can be a broad concept but I was mostly referring to literal or physical pain, like injuring yourself in a literal sense.Martijn

    As I've noted, that's not how I experience it, and I'm not the only one.

    deluding ourselves that life is always fair and nice.Martijn

    I don't know anyone who thinks the world is always fair and nice. Certainly I don't.
  • Martijn
    27


    It's not to shun the experience of suffering, but to endure it without letting it consume you.

    In the second half of 2024, an Ukranian man lost his wife and three daughters to a Russian missle strike. He instantly lost his direct family, his legacy, his support, and most of his life.... How much did he suffer? We cannot know. But he didn't falter to suicide. To my understanding, this man still lives and fights today. How many would just seek death after experiencing something like this? We all face hardships in life, but your RESPONSES to these events are what determine suffering. Mentally ill people struggle with this substantially more, but it's true for everyone.



    I'm glad that your life was more pleasant, and this is where the disconnect comes from. However, try to look at statistics or facts. Look up how many people are overweight right now, for example. Look up divorce rates, suicide rates (especially amongst the youth), the amount of mental health medication that is being produced and sold every day, the amount of alcohol, cigarettes, and porn that is flowing every single day. I genuinely believe society itself is ill, not just me. Most people are addicted because we are self-medicating to deal with a nihilistic timeline, and some need these coping strategies more than others.

    There is no 'perfect world' but there is freedom. A world where we don't endlessly try to control each other, or where we only care about profit and violence, and so on.

    I don't understand this borderline obsession where it's just ''my'' spirit. Don't gaslight me into thinking that the world outside is doing perfectly ok, and it's just me who's suffering in this synthetic world. Yes, there is still good in the world, and yes, taking care of yourself and building mental fortitude is critically important. Yet, we can also look at the outside world, as unbiased as possible, and just point at facts. For example, being overweight is not normal. It should be extremely rare. We should all take our health seriously, yet in our modern world, millions of people struggle with their weight. Go to any city in Europe and you will find someone who is overweight within a few minutes, and probably even quicker in the USA. Why don't people ever ask these questions? Why don't we question seemingly normalized elements in our society that are absolutely not normal?
  • Fire Ologist
    1.3k
    Inherent suffering. Suffering seems to be inherent to life,Martijn

    I think there is another aspect to this discussion relating to change, labor, and the ability to accept and overcome suffering.

    Take all of the obvious emotion and empathy out of it just for the sake of discussion. We can put that back in later and see what happens.

    Instead of calling it suffering, call it striving or even just labor, for a moment.

    Whenever something new comes to be, something else must be consumed and pass away. This is what change is, what it does.

    In order for a boulder to individuate itself as a boulder, a huge rock must break away from the mountain. We can see this as the mountain being broken (suffering) or we can see this as the boulder being born. Or, because mountains don’t suffer and boulders are not alive to be be born, the fact of the mountain and the boulder that comes from it can be seen simply as change.

    Change, coming to be and passing away, requires suffering.

    Applied in living beings, change is often accompanied by pain. This is true whenever one works hard and strives to produce something. Let’s say one is gathering food and building a house. One shops down trees for wood, drags logs up hills, chops down wheat fields, bruises one’s body, blisters and callouses, is cut and bleeds accidentally, but labors through the pain, day after day, through sickness when it is harvest time, to build a house and fill it with food. Living things must consume (destroy) what they eat, robbing the atmosphere of oxygen, drinking up the rivers. Living things speed up the normal process of change by seeking out things to hunt down, kill and consume.

    This is what nature is.

    So, when in pain, one can see that one is privileged to exist at all, to know both pain and peace. It can be one helper towards accepting pain, or better said, overcoming pain or even welcoming it, to know what future things may come to be from it. Like labor pains, the baby and a next generation, with its hope for more peaceful moments, make the mother push through the birth, and strive towards something better through the pain. And maybe so much so, she has many children, making even more chances that the next generation will have enough people to help each other towards peace. We can labor now to build a future with surplus and less labor in it for that next generation.

    None of this matters to the child who is dying of cancer, and perhaps in pain for weeks and months or years before an untimely death. And none of these motions of change matter to the mother of that child, and the future robbed of her joys that she will endure into her death. For such people, the rest of us owe charity and the gifts of our surplus. We owe them from our surplus of joy as much comfort and consolation as we can give.

    But only if there is an afterlife, hope for all of the futures that have been cut short in pain and death, can we find a way to truly accept and overcome so much of the suffering that life and change necessitate. Even the Buddha called this an end to rebirth. Something truly transcendent, untouched by this universe, unchanging, that we may be blessed to discover while we live, is the only real way to overcome the labor of living. But it can help us work and strive and labor to build for others, and ourselves, a more peaceful existence, where striving and change reveal to us life’s beauty and love and goodness, and not just pain and death.
  • T Clark
    15k
    Don't gaslight me into thinking that the world outside is doing perfectly ok, and it's just me who's suffering in this synthetic world.Martijn

    If you’re going to participate in the forum, you’d better get used to people disagreeing with you.
  • Martijn
    27


    Disagreeing is one thing, but it's more like that I am stating the sky is blue, and you're like 'nu-uh, to me, the sky is green!'

    Go offer a counterargument to my point about obesity, for example. Don't just base everything from your perspective, try to see things from the other side.
  • T Clark
    15k

    Best we leave it at that.
  • BC
    13.9k
    Unlike the other two forms of suffering, mental suffering is fully within one's control.Martijn

    This would be true IF we were entirely self-possessed, entirely in charge and managing our central nervous systems. We are not. The seat of reason, emotion, and physical control are afflicted with limitations, deficiencies, and disorders. Granted, habits of mind can create or aggravate mental suffering. However, the habits of mind which afflict us may hobble our ability to unravel those same habits. We are not masters of our own houses.
  • Ourora Aureis
    68
    Unlike the other two forms of suffering, mental suffering is fully within one's control.Martijn

    Unless they have a mental illness.Tom Storm

    I think a more precise statement could be "mental suffering is a form of psychological suffering caused by dissatisfaction with experience."

    For example, being cheated on causes suffering not due to physical pain but due to the immense dissatisfaction when processing such information. I think it would be wrong to say that since its purely psychological that it's within our control. Afterall it should be noted that all experience could be reduced as "psychological" and yet we are still trapped within our own conceptions.

    However, I do understand what the idea is getting at. Not all conceptions are equally foundational, nor is the ability to shake them given to all equally. Some struggle with feelings of jealousy, anger, pride, while others clearly dont, or at least not to the same extent. I do think some personalities are inherently less flexible than others and more prone to this type of psychological suffering, which explains why some people can effortlessly adapt to a modern world while others suffer greatly.

    I genuinely believe society itself is ill, not just me.Martijn

    The issue with this statement is that current society works well for some whilst others cannot handle it. Neither you nor society is ill, but you are potentially incompatible. However, this incompability will exist no matter the society as long as differences in personality persist.

    Personally, I quite enjoy society and It only seems to be getting better. While there are issues, all of them seem to be avoidable given basic contemplation. While I dislike common morality and anti-freedom positions which are rampant, I find it quite easily to just skirt around these and live my life in accordance with my own values.

    Most importantly though, you shouldn't expect people to extend their empathy to you at the cost of their own values. I personally dislike the ideals you spout since they almost always lead to totalitarian measures, not from a place of ignorance, but a complete disregard for the benefits that unfairness and injustice can have. Conflict and competition creates a more interesting world where people are forced to mature, I find it to be a general good. For example, I would say my enjoyment of conflict has been a driving factor in my interest within philosophy.
  • Martijn
    27


    Life works for you when you grew up in a safe and stable family, where you were nourished, supported, protected, and loved. Where you had all the tools you needed to develop and discover yourself. Where you didn't face abuse, neglect, or loss at an unreasonable early age. Obviously, we all have problems and issues, nobody has a perfect life or anything like that. But our system IS broken because it is reflected through the behaviour of so many people: the immense loneliness, the obesity and physical health issues, the declining birth rates, etc. This is not just ''my'' perspective, i'm just looking as objectively as possible.

    I agree that conflict and competition has a place in society, but what we have right now is beyond all reason. It is a free-for-all, and if you struggle, you need to get lucky to get genuine support and help. If you suffer from abuse, violence, racism, or if you are a single parent for example, your life can seem like burning hell. You suffer genuine wounds, manifsted deep within your mind, and you feel like nobody cares. That's not normal.

    Oh and society is not getting better. It's going to collapse, but that's a truth that very few are willing to accept yet.
  • Ourora Aureis
    68


    I didnt say it was just your issue, nor did I say it was solvable for you. However, I am saying that it's your problem, not mine. And society is not going to collapse.
  • Tom Storm
    10k
    think a more precise statement could be "mental suffering is a form of psychological suffering caused by dissatisfaction with experience."Ourora Aureis

    No, that would be even more imprecise. If we're talking about a psychotic illness such as schizoaffective disorder or schizophrenia (to cite two examples), the distress is caused by delusions and persecutory thoughts over which the person has little or no control. To use a term like 'dissatisfaction with experience' would be almost comically euphemistic.
  • Ourora Aureis
    68


    You can replace "dissatisfaction" with "preference away from" if you would prefer a more technical statement, I was not trying to employ any emotional or poetic language. I think its silly to argue over terms like this though.
  • Tom Storm
    10k
    I'm not arguing over terms, I'm saying his makes it no clearer or more precise.
  • Ourora Aureis
    68


    Seemingly your issue with the original idea was with the idea that one could fully control their psychological deposition to any response, and I agree this is a flaw. Mental illness is a very clear example, although this flaw would also apply to regular minds.

    Just as we cannot rationalise ourselves out of physical pain, I dont think every person can rationalise themselves out of all forms of psychological pain/distress/dissatisfaction (the word used here doesn't actually matter to the idea at large).

    You seem to agree with this but simply disliked the term 'dissatisfaction'. If I'm misunderstanding you, could you provide some reasoning for why you believe my statement is imprecise? So far I agree with the statements you've given.
  • Tom Storm
    10k
    You seem to agree with this but simply disliked the term 'dissatisfaction'. If I'm misunderstanding you, could you provide some reasoning for why you believe my statement is imprecise? So far I agree with the statements you've given.Ourora Aureis

    I guess I disagree with using terms like “dissatisfaction” or “a preference away from” in this context. If, for instance, we’re talking about an Axis I diagnosis, say, like schizoaffective disorder, we’re dealing with thought disorder, delusions, hallucinations, and lack of insight. I don’t think framing it in terms of dissatisfaction adds anything, we’re exploring something closer to chaos. But perhaps I don’t fully understand your intent.
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