Do you mean as in fatalism? — WISDOMfromPO-MO
2. This is the full-blown version of fate where we're totally not in control of our life. Everything has been predetermined. This is controversial and I think it's called determinism. It leads to fatalism - a surrender of the self. — TheMadFool
However, it's obvious that we live in a world where our sphere of control is limited. People, weather, stock markets are unpredictable and these affect our lives. These unpredictable factors sum up to fate. — TheMadFool
We all can choose to change direction but often we don't. — Rich
There is no failure. Everything is a experiment and learning experience. This allows us to become more skillful navigators in life. — Rich
I think that most people do not know the difference and what they call determinism is really fatalism — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Well, I think the difference between fatalism and determinism is that the former is an attitude... — TheMadFool
Determinism is different. With determinism, in order for Donald Trump to be elected President of the United States of American in November, 2016 there had to be causes.
With fatalism, it was always the case that Donald Trump was going to be elected President of the United States of America in November, 2016. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
If the goal was an about-face but you end up in the same direction on the same path, the effort failed.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what is meant by "change direction". — WISDOMfromPO-MO
The distinction doesn't seem to make sense. The essence of both, even taking your definitions to be true, is our lives are beyond our control. The mechanism, or lack of it, that leads to this conclusion seems inconsequential apart from a purely theoretical perspective. If you think otherwise, can you tell me how the difference between fatalism and determinism is useful. Thanks. — TheMadFool
With fatalism there is actually a thinking and feeling agent.
With determinism, it is all about illusion created by some quanta banging into each other and somehow tricking some of us into thinking it is an illusion and some of us (the determinists) who see through it all and know that it is all about illusion (or is it an illusion of an illusion). — Rich
I'm not sure how well this view can demarcate a clear boundary between fatalism and determinism. Determinism doesn't preclude a thinking and feeling agent. — TheMadFool
Thanks for explaining determinism to me. The question that comes to mind is how do we form a coherent theory about fatalism without determinism? — TheMadFool
He choose how he would live and he accomplished much. He died young...
He was as complicit in his fate, as we are in ours — Cavacava
Ok but how does bringing in God distinguish fatalism from determinism? Presumably both require causation at some point. Perhaps determinism and fatalism are differentiated along those lines but it seems so contrived. Distinction without difference. — TheMadFool
Fatalism, they continue, says that everything is set in stone. Determinism, on the other hand, says that everything is an effect of antecedent causes. The difference is that with determinism the causes could have been different--the temperature could have risen and therefore the water would have evaporated rather than the temperature dropping and the water freezing--but with fatalism they could not have been different--the temperature was going to drop and the water was going to freeze; it was set in stone. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
But how, exactly, could the causes have been different? Didn't they have causes that determined them? — Terrapin Station
Saying that the distinction is that fatalism doesn't involve causality, and that under it, everything is simply set in stone as a brute, more or less unconnected fact would at least make some sense conceptually, but saying that determinism doesn't amount to everything being set in stone doesn't make sense. — Terrapin Station
Their claim is that each thing in the past, present, and future has always been fixed and settled, whether or not it was causally determined..." (emphasis mine) — WISDOMfromPO-MO
No I don't buy fate. — Terrapin Station
but there could have been a different past or different laws. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
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