I think people in every administration have said and done racist things. It is an unfortunate reality that there will probably always be racists, and some of them will get into positions of power. Obviously his statement is racist and wrong, but I don't find throwing back and forth quotes of politicians saying unhinged things particularly helpful in discussion.

Obviously his statement is racist and wrong, but I don't find throwing back and forth quotes of politicians saying unhinged things particularly helpful in discussion. — MrLiminal

Oh, that's not the only thing:

"A speechwriter for the Trump administration has been fired following reports that he spoke at a white nationalist conference in 2016.

The White House confirmed to US media on Monday that aide Darren J Beattie, a former visiting instructor at Duke University, had been dismissed.

Mr Beattie had appeared on a panel at the HL Mencken Club conference, which is attended by white supremacists."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45249154

And now he's an undersecretary at the State Department. Of all the qualified people in the country for that position, we hired THIS guy? After firing him years ago for being a racist? Nobody else could do that job? Really, now.

Yes. Obviously. This is not a serious discussion if you think otherwise. This seals it: — AmadeusD

I agree with that since we cannot even agree on the facts much less the solution.
This is an unfortunate aspect and common feature of our modern society and fractured media.
Have you ever been to LA, do you live in the US? Do you always think those who disagree with you are not serious or worth having a discussion with?

I've lived in L.A. County most of my life. I remember the Rodney King riots, wondering if the rioters would make it to my area. What's going on now is nothing like that. I've seen soccer rioting worse than this.

He should be fired then, but again, I'm sure I could find deplorable people in every administration. Politicians tend to be bad people, in my experience.

↪Wayfarer It's funny how people thousands of years ago warned us about people like Trump. Truly there's nothing new under the sun. Regarding human behavior, that is.

We cut that part out of the curriculum because it was variously "not going to get the kids jobs and make them money like STEM," or because we need to "decolonize and deconstruct the classics."

Now we get to reap the benefits of raising even the country's elites for a tech-bro-ocracy, the reduction of politics and the common good to an engineering problem (just as plenty of contemporary political theory suggests we should). It's the Baconian mastery of nature turned inwards, without any thought as to whether mere "technicians" and "CEOs" would have the stomachs and hearts to take a stand against demagoguery when it would cost them something.

But, as a nation of primarily "consumers' and "workers" I suppose we don't really need a republic anyhow.



Politicians have plenty of incentives to downplay violence and vandalism. See January 6th. Photos can be misleading of course, videos too. I can't find it now but there is a great picture from Paris of the Yellow Vest protests where one shot looks like a giant fire in front of a line of police with a crowd pressed in on all sides and then the same fire is shown from further out and it amounts to a few newspapers worth of fire with like 12 people standing around it in front of the police.

But the damage here seems more extensive than that. The optics of burning cars and people waving foreign flags in front of them is obviously not great for building wider sympathy at the very least.

He should be fired then, but again, I'm sure I could find deplorable people in every administration. Politicians tend to be bad people, in my experience. — MrLiminal

Can you think of a comparable situation in a democratic administration?

I don't live in LA but I have been there. This does not compare to Watts or the Rodney King riots. By report confined to about 5 blocks as violence goes. I don't understand how looking at a few video clips and pictures makes anyone think they can judge the scope of the entire situation. You have to trust some source short of being there in person and even then you would be confined to a small area. I don't think I am the one who judgment is being clouded by preconceived notions or ideology. Really I a true conservation with libertarian tendencies but this is not conservatism just a woke and cancel culture is not true liberalism.

It sounds harsh, but how many people have been killed or seriously hurt here? Isn't that a useful metric for how bad rioting is? Some cops went to the hospital for minor injuries. The reporters getting shot by rubber bullets have been injured about as bad as anyone. Not much of a riot, is it?

But the damage here seems more extensive than that. The optics of burning cars and people waving foreign flags in front of them is obviously not great for building wider sympathy at the very least. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Yes, but how would any of us actually know? I sort of agree it's hard to trust the media these days, Fox news versus MSNBC would make you think these events are on different planets. If we cannot trust the officials on the ground and in charge then who do we turn to? All part of our modern dilemma. Maybe put some dromes' in the air for a birds eye view.

A speechwriter for the Trump administration has been fired following reports that he spoke at a white nationalist conference in 2016. — RogueAI

Wow that sucks.

Does this indicate though that the administration perhaps isn't quite so gung-ho racist as purported? Unsure - but worth noting that this could cut both ways. Sitll, thanks for that. I wasn't aware.

Definitely. I was going to mention Jan 6. But more on point would be this:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/funeral-etiquette-trumps-blue-suit-133712946.html

You get quotes like this from a fucking legal expert:

"One guy shows up in a blue suit to the pope's funeral. You will never guess who" from Filipkowski.

All you need do is zoom out a little bit to know that this entire narrative is a complete an utter lie. Similar to "fine people on both sides". There is a rather extreme tendency to flagrantly misrepresent Trump to flare up social rage. The number of retracts The View has had to put out is embarrassing.

That isn't particularly reasonable. Personal opinion i guess. Just a way to make it look better.

I don't understand how looking at a few video clips and pictures makes anyone think they can judge the scope of the entire situation. — prothero

If we're aware of hte geography of the city, and have plenty of aerial photography I can't understand how you cannot. Statements from officials are so far removed from anything remotely approaching 'evidence' I just can't wrap my mind around how you're approaching this. Sorry if that's coming off insulting or anything. I'm somewhat incredulous, tbh.

Have you ever been to LA — prothero

Yes.

Do you always think those who disagree with you are not serious or worth having a discussion with? — prothero

Are you serious with this question? Because this is just further showing me that you are not seriously engaging a discussion - no good faith here, if this is a serious question.

No deaths', yet that I am aware of. Relatively few serious injuries or arrests. I am concerned about National Guard and active duty Marines with lethal ammunition. I am old enough to remember Kent State during the Vietnam protests. Yes, that should be part of the metric for the extent of the "riots". it would seem for a rational analysis.

Does this indicate though that the administration perhaps isn't quite so gung-ho racist as purported? — AmadeusD

They hired him again! After he said competent white men should be in charge! Aren't you asking me to do an incredible suspension of disbelief when you argue the Trump Admin isn't racist in the face of something like this?

Or if someone did he would be checked by the congress or the courts (may still happen). — prothero

Mitch McConnell must rue the day he voted not to confirm Trump's second impeachment, for the disgraceful assault on the Capital Building, on the grounds that it 'should be dealt with by the courts'.

Clear horseshit. These are views of entire blocks and full stretches of highway - multiple cities, multiple neighbourhoods. This is just having blinkers on, at this stage. — AmadeusD

We have seen the pictures. We have eyes - we don't need an AI to trawl the internet for reports written by other humans. We can see the riots ourselves. — AmadeusD

Yes. Obviously. This is not a serious discussion if you think otherwise. This seals it: — AmadeusD

I am responding to this type of polemic and statement of opinion as undeniable fact. I have seen the videos and pictures (almost a continuous loop on Fox). Do they tell us more about the extent, than deaths, injuries, hospitalizations, arrests, and official statements?

I told you I wasn't aware of this. I'm not asking you to do anything.

Biden supported racial riots. I'm not really saying anything here - just that people are going to see things the way they see things. Trump, himself, certainly doesn't seem like 'a racist'. The administration definitely has racists among it.

Yes, obviously. This is not a serious discussion if you think otherwise.

Trump, himself, certainly doesn't seem like 'a racist'. — AmadeusD

They (illegal immigrants) are poisoning the blood of our country. That’s what they’ve done. They poison — mental institutions and prisons all over the world. Not just in South America. Not just the three or four countries that we think about. But all over the world they’re coming into our country — from Africa, from Asia, all over the world. They’re pouring into our country.” — Dec. 16, 2023, New Hampshire rally


“They’re rough people, in many cases from jails, prisons, from mental institutions, insane asylums. You know, insane asylums — that’s ‘Silence of the Lambs’ stuff.” — March 4, 2024, interview with Right Side Broadcasting Network


“The Democrats say, ‘Please don’t call them animals. They’re humans.’ I said, ‘No, they’re not humans, they’re not humans, they’re animals’ … Nancy Pelosi told me that. She said, ‘Please don’t use the word animals when you’re talking about these people.’ I said, ‘I’ll use the word animal because that’s what they are.’” — April 2, 2024, Grand Rapids, Michigan, campaign event.

That's not a basis for ignoring them. — Hanover

Sonetimes it is. It's called civil disobedience and that can sometimes be a duty if a law is outrageous enough.

I'd call it bad ethics to wait for other people to decide on what you should think of a certain event, law or statement.

I just said I don't find this kind of back and forth helpful. It exists and we both know it; I refuse to get in to a quote slinging contest with you. I am past the point of pearl clutching on this kind of thing.

Is illegal immigrant a race now?

Presumably races other than Boer.

Just seems bad faith to conflate the two, when the very quote you used had him referring to multiple different races of illegal immigrant. I have a hard time believing a man who spent much of his life as a NY Democrat is some virulent racist. Trump does enough inflammatory stuff, and misrepresenting him like that only makes people less likely to believe the actual bad things he does.

Trump's comments on the Central Park Five case don't strike you as racist? Just a tiny bit? Has Trump ever gone after white kids like that?

Again, I will not do this with you. I think most if not all politicians are morally reprehensible people, so this line of thought is profoundly uncompelling to me. I vote for which monster I think will further my goals. If you are under the assumption this is not the case, I don't think this will be a productive discussion.

I vote for which monster I think will further my goals. — MrLiminal

Really? There's no disqualifying behavior a politician can partake in that would make you not vote for him? To take an obvious extreme case, what about a politician that furthers your goals perfectly, but is revealed to be a Grand Duke in the KKK? He's also been impeached for bribery. As a citizen, would you vote for this person, assuming the impeachment fails and he runs again. As a senator, would you vote to convict in an impeachment trial if your vote meant conviction? Assume you are convinced on the bribery charges.

A politician that furthered my goals perfectly would not do those things. If you will not change your approach, I will not respond further. To throw you a bone, I do find it very likely Trump is racist to some degree, just probably not any more so than most other politicians or citizens his age, which makes the issue a moral wash and therefore uncompelling.

I think most if not all politicians are morally reprehensible people — MrLiminal

I want to unpack this, because it seems demonstrably false. What was morally reprehensible about Lincoln, Eisenhower, and Obama, for example?

A politician that furthered my goals perfectly would not do those things. — MrLiminal

Really? I'm thinking of the case of Bill Clinton, who furthered a lot of my goals, but I couldn't bring myself to vote for him because of his behavior. That can't happen with your goals and some hypothetical sleazy leader? Can you give examples of some of your goals?

This is the same discussion reframed. If it is not already obvious to you why high level politicians inherently tend towards being bad people, I am not interested in explaining it.



I gave some examples of my goals in my original post: robust social programs, social cohesion, UBI and pro-labor. It would be difficult and frankly unbelievable for a KKK member to espouse those things.

OK, fair enough. I'm not trying to be a prick. I like arguing and attacking assertions I think are false. This is a philosophy forum. You're going to get a lot of that here.