As an atheist I didn't understand why the absence of divinity would necessarily lead to a world without righteousness. — ChatteringMonkey
To the Christian theists, sin is characteristically tied to the divine command. The divine command theorist associates that any evil deed is one that God condemns, and the fear of sin, and guilt that come from this divine-moral relation, is in the presence of divine moral law.
↪PartialFanatic As an atheist I didn't understand why the absence of divinity would necessarily lead to a world without righteousness
Or maybe to put the question another way, why are there still people acting morally in societies that are largely secular, like say in parts of Europe today? Is it that we are still living in a world where the divine lingers on after the dead of God? Or maybe we have replaced the strictly divine with belief in something that serves a similar function, for instance the idea of 'never again' after the holocaust? — ChatteringMonkey
Or maybe to put the question another way, why are there still people acting morally in societies that are largely secular, like say in parts of Europe today? — ChatteringMonkey
Or perhaps religion and theism don't have as much to do with morality as some think, and are primarily a justification for particular codes of conduct, some of which we might consider immoral today.
It’s not as if religions or theism doesn't commit egregious crimes against people, right?
Zizek (borrowing from Lacan) flips Dostoevsky’s quote to account for the poor moral behaviour of theists: “If God exists, everything is permitted." Presumably the idea is that there's not a crime going that hasn't been justified by theists as part of God's plan. — Tom Storm
Well, if you talk to some theists, they don’t think secular culture is moral. They see it as empty hedonism that promotes what they consider outrages, like gay marriage or expanded rights for women. What’s clear is that different moral systems or codes of conduct are at play simultaneously in the West, and they are unlikely to disappear. Humans are a social species, and living together requires shared norms. The idea that without belief in God humans will revert to killing and rape is clearly false. It's also evident that prisons are full of rapists and murderers who are theists. I can attest to this, having worked with prisoners and gang members, most of whom are believers. — Tom Storm
The problem is a lack of telos, and a lack of hope that man can ever fulfill his innate, infinite desires. The cosmos is no longer an ordered whole animated by love. You lose the great Eastern thinkers (e.g. Saint Maximus the Confessor, Saint Gregory Palamas) vision of a cosmos moved by love to union in love, the process of exitus et reditus whereby everything in the cosmos is , a revelation of God, and history a path towards theosis.
David Bentley Hart uses Dostoevsky as his main source for his book on theodicy, "The Gates of the Sea," and this is at least his reading too. — Count Timothy von Icarus
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