• PartialFanatic
    14
    To the Christian theists, sin is characteristically tied to the divine command. The divine command theorist associates that any evil deed is one that God condemns, and the fear of sin, and guilt that come from this divine-moral relation, is in the presence of divine moral law. This theme transpires in the opening chapters of Dostoevsky’s Crime and Punishment. It tackles not only the fear from the objective wrong, but also the plea for salvation that meets the wronged at the end of the unjust existential road. Nearing the end of Chapter V, with the dream of the horse, Dostoevsky portrays how sin makes people act without limits, in a world absent of providence.

    Often enough, Raskolnikov dreads sin even though this hesitation becomes hidden in his idealization. At the end of Chapter II, after Raskolnikov leaves Marmeladov’s place, he puts the adaptation of the “human race” to guilt (referring to Marmeladov’s feeling of Sonya’s job) as villainous. Rightfully so is this description towards the human attitude after recurringly experiencing guilt and helplessness, and so is this towards feeling of hopelessness after watching others suffers because of you. Marmeladov is the repeated victim of this condition as he watches his family suffer because of him. The effect is shown as overwhelming later on, as he humorously accepts his wife’s reproaching so there is less stress placed on her.

    Raskolnikov, and this association that he puts out as villainous is more about trying to justify the absence of divinity - the absence of fear of sin - not so much for his own personal ideological benefit but to spare calling Marmeladov and his family villains. Supposedly, his sympathy is evident from the humor that follows, remarking that Marmeladov’s family may as well be in their ‘uppers’ soon if not for his money. But, it does not become obvious whether he is opposed to “villain framing.” Initially referring taking back the money as an act that he would refrain from “even if such a thing were possible,” the fact becomes clearer in his contradictions. Remarks such as “Three cheers for Sonya!” are said in a justifying tone, and in somewhat contradiction to his belief that they may go bankrupt any day without his money.

    Raskolnikov does not want to let Marmeladov’s family be destroyed, but he realizes that without Sonya’s job, this may be their fate. Raskolnikov’s sympathy reaffirms his wish to let Marmeladov and his family be free of guilt, as he tries to put the sole reliance of the entire family on his money. Realizing this is not possible, and this is said successively, Raskolnikov suggests that there be no limits and all fears be superstitious.

    The book’s attitude towards sin is a double-edged sword: while sin may bar people from committing heinous acts, it comes with the price of guilt when one is helpless but to commit it. With the condition of Marmeladov’s family, Raskolnikov tries to portray fear as superstitious, so that his family is spared of guilt. At the same time, without experiencing guilt, Raskolnikov accepts that it would remove the fence that blocks people from committing sin. Marmeladov is the sole figure in the early chapters that experiences guilt, as he wrongs his daughter and family. The scene that he created in the bar especially showed how his guilt slowly deformed into despair, and into a figure that tries to relieve guilt from others. In his scenes repeatedly, Marmeladov accepts any reproach, and goes on to plea for salvation. He is a character of tragedy, shown in the light of a forgiving figure. He is alluded this strongly as he pleas that he may as well be crucified if his family were to be spared.

    From the end of Marmeladov’s ‘fuss’ in the tavern, there is a strong hint of the theme of salvation. This becomes realized through the silence at the end, as well as the plea of salvation that is addressed to the people in the tavern, declaring them as having the “mark of the beast.” Marmeladov’s cry for salvation is narrated, with him acting as the Divine. He starts by forgiving his daughter and then all the men in the tavern. Throughout, forgiveness is referred in duality with “understood,” connecting largely to the earlier idea of “having a place to belong.” This is not limited to the idea of empathy, but seems to connect more so to a moral closure. As Raskolnikov tries to deny framing Marmeladov’s family as villains, Marmeladov’s plea accepts the cruelty of being villainous and suggests that there is an end to this unjustness, which is strongly alluded to in his call of redemption for those with the “mark of the beast.” Not only that, it accepts that sin may be a Hobson’s choice, and accepts the plausibility of justice for even the damned. At the same time, the eeriness of the absence of divinity is suggested from Raskolnikov’s referral of fear of sin as superstitious. Without divinity, Dostoevsky seems to suggest the absence of any wall between right and wrong, and the absence of divine justice.

    The underlying reason for Raskolnikov’s hesitation is shown in his dream of the horse. In the dream, Raskolnikov is shown to be compassionate for the horse, and tries to stop the men from beating it, repeatedly. Here, Raskolnikov’s character is portrayed especially contrary to his prevailing agitation. The men seem to portray character foils of Marmeladov; acting without guilt, contrary to Marmeladov’s acceptance of others’ reproach. This becomes relevant with the motif of sin as having an intoxicating effect, which is pointed to in the case of Marmeladov calling the ‘beverage’ a way to insult oneself for being destitute. The destitute feeling is shown to be closely associated with the feeling of loss that Marmeladov feels for his family. For Marmeladov, the effect is his forgiving figure, but for others, it is shown as making them heedless to others’ pain, with how Marmeladov became a laughingstock for the tavernmen. The scene with the jade is primarily shown as the zenith of such an attitude. Raskolnikov’s sympathetic attitude towards the horse coupled with the recurring calls to harm it seem to show a juxtaposing scene of the men’s “wood-devil” heart and Raskolnikov’s compassion towards the wronged. This ties on to Marmeladov associating the men in the tavern as having the “mark of the beast,” and characterizes them as ignorant, including his wife. Again, this ties to having a place to belong. Here, Dostoevsky seems to point to a self-serving world without righteousness, in the absence of an all-loving being.

    To conclude, Dostoevsky portrays a world which is absent of divinity, and with nothing barring from committing sin. It not only robs people of guilt, but intoxicates them under the mark of the beast, not even able to plea for salvation.
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.5k
    As an atheist I didn't understand why the absence of divinity would necessarily lead to a world without righteousness.

    I do feel guilt and feel compelled to act on moral principles eventhough I don't believe in God. So I do think it is perfectly possible for an individual to act morally without God.

    Is it maybe that the world or society as a whole tends to deteriorate over time without some divine command, so eventually this also gets to individuals who are formed by the world they spring from?

    Or maybe to put the question another way, why are there still people acting morally in societies that are largely secular, like say in parts of Europe today? Is it that we are still living in a world where the divine lingers on after the dead of God? Or maybe we have replaced the strictly divine with belief in something that serves a similar function, for instance the idea of 'never again' after the holocaust?
  • PartialFanatic
    14
    As an atheist I didn't understand why the absence of divinity would necessarily lead to a world without righteousness.ChatteringMonkey

    Yeah, that is a real puzzle. Dostoevsky & Nietzsche did think that the transition of society from a theist worldview to secularism would destroy this feeling of "guilt," and let people act without limits. Nietzsche compared the religious idea to traditional tribal ideals that made people act in limits of guilt, and associated the Christian God as the ultimate figure on which people are burdened by (a feeling of guilt). Sigmund Freud also proposed religious norm instillation through his idea of superego.

    But, it is still quite a discussion point I think.
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.5k
    Yes, they had a very similar diagnosis of society, i.e. that it was build on religious foundations, and that it would fall apart if you take that away. And they probably had a similar insight about the role guilt played psychological and in contemporary morality.

    Their proposed solution was different though. Nietzsche wanted to go beyond Good and Evil, beyond guilt-based morality, at least for some. I think he saw a 'morality' based on shame rather than guilt with the pre-platonic Greeks. Socrates and Plato were a break from what came before, a re-evaluation in Greek valuations... from values based on the sensual, on aesthetics, to 'moral' values, ultimately ending in Christianity. He saw that as a mistake. The question for him was how to go beyond that, whereas Dostoevsky wanted a return to true Christianity.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    3.8k


    To the Christian theists, sin is characteristically tied to the divine command. The divine command theorist associates that any evil deed is one that God condemns, and the fear of sin, and guilt that come from this divine-moral relation, is in the presence of divine moral law.

    What is normally called Divine Command Theory is Protestant innovation born of volanturist theology. Certainly, it has echoes in some earlier thinkers, but I think that it's key to distinguish this. The Orthodox have tended to stay even further from this sort of vision (although, there are always exceptions).

    I've read a good deal of Dostoevsky's corpus, had a class on him, and a bit of secondary literature, but I'm no expert. However, I don't think he would qualify under this label. He seems solidly Eastern Orthodox in many respects. And I am not bringing this up to nitpick, it's very important.

    Ivan Karamazov is obviously not meant to be an exact mouthpiece for Dostoevsky, but Dostoevsky obviously does have the concern that: "if there is no God, anything is permitted." Yet this doesn't imply a framework where "good" is just whatever God proclaims, according to his inscrutable will though, nor a framework defined by command and obedience.

    So to:



    ↪PartialFanatic As an atheist I didn't understand why the absence of divinity would necessarily lead to a world without righteousness

    The problem is a lack of telos, and a lack of hope that man can ever fulfill his innate, infinite desires. The cosmos is no longer an ordered whole animated by love. You lose the great Eastern thinkers (e.g. Saint Maximus the Confessor, Saint Gregory Palamas) vision of a cosmos moved by love to union in love, the process of exitus et reditus whereby everything in the cosmos is sacramental, a revelation of God, and history a path towards theosis.

    David Bentley Hart uses Dostoevsky as his main source for his book on theodicy, "The Gates of the Sea," and this is at least his reading too.
  • PartialFanatic
    14


    Thanks a lot for the critique of my introductory paragraph. I feel that I did in fact misrepresent the essay quite a bit in the introduction, as I did not extend this idea either ways. Thank you for making me realize this, and for pointing out DCT as a majorly protestant view.

    If you do feel that you can read the other parts of the essay, please do, as DCT is absent from the other sections.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    3.8k


    That's just what jumped out at me. It has been a while since I read C&P, but it makes sense to me.

    I think one thing to recall is that horses were still primarily "beasts of burden" at this point. They were a means, like a car. But obviously, people also knew they had feelings, "personalities," etc., and some treated them more like pets. I think one of the points here is that, without any orienting telos, no truly better or worse way to live a human life, everything becomes instrumental. You beat the horse if it gives you pleasure, because, in the end, everything should be viewed through the lens of maximizing pleasure. There is nothing else to seek.

    So, to the earlier question: - it reminds me a bit of Achille's shield in the Iliad. Why is it too terrifying to look at? Well, going back to antiquity, a common answer is that it shows the meaninglessness of life. The shield is incredibly detailed and shows "the city in war" and "the city in peace." In the former, there is opportunity for glory, thymos. In the latter, there is time for pleasure, epithumia. But there is no greater logos orienting things. The shield is a circle, and the world it depicts an endless cycle where all, even those of the greatest glory and virtue ultimately go down to the grave to become gibbering nothings (in the Odyssey, when Odysseus goes to the underworld, Achilles tells Odysseus he'd rather be the slave of a poor man than "lord it over all the exhausted dead"). There is no purpose to anything. It is, perhaps reminiscent of Ecclesiastes, and it recalls the Aeneid in that Virgil does add a higher logos and historical dimension to his world, even if it remains bitterly pessimistic.

    Dostoevsky is seeing the same thing returning with the "death of God." So, in this post I go into why so many people oriented towards the classical tradition see nominalism as "demonic." This goes back to the Desert Fathers, and other early influential Christian thinkers, who tended to see a life led seeking advantage (reason become wholly instrumental and without telos) as essentially a "diabolical" way of thinking. I know the Patristics have always been quite big in the Orthodox tradition, because they are all over the liturgy, so Dostoevsky might well be familiar with these ideas since they were transmitted down the ages.

    And, as you point out, the way people wallow in sin is a big focus of Dostoevsky. Also their attempts to hang on to some shred of dignity, and how this often backfires because their thymos is misdirected, all out of balance with the purpose of life. Katrina Ivanovna in the Brothers Karamazov is a good example too. This goes with the Patristic idea, still big in Orthodoxy, of man's mind being clouded in the fall, his nous fundamentally malfunctioning and in need of "Christ the physician."
  • Tom Storm
    9.9k
    Or maybe to put the question another way, why are there still people acting morally in societies that are largely secular, like say in parts of Europe today? Is it that we are still living in a world where the divine lingers on after the dead of God? Or maybe we have replaced the strictly divine with belief in something that serves a similar function, for instance the idea of 'never again' after the holocaust?ChatteringMonkey

    Or perhaps religion and theism don't have as much to do with morality as some think, and are primarily a justification for particular codes of conduct, some of which we might consider immoral today.

    It’s not as if religions or theism doesn't commit egregious crimes against people, right?

    Zizek (borrowing from Lacan) flips Dostoevsky’s quote to account for the poor moral behaviour of theists: “If God exists, everything is permitted." Presumably the idea is that there's not a crime going that hasn't been justified by theists as part of God's plan.

    Or maybe to put the question another way, why are there still people acting morally in societies that are largely secular, like say in parts of Europe today?ChatteringMonkey

    Well, if you talk to some theists, they don’t think secular culture is moral. They see it as empty hedonism that promotes what they consider outrages, like gay marriage or expanded rights for women. What’s clear is that different moral systems or codes of conduct are at play simultaneously in the West, and they are unlikely to disappear. Humans are a social species, and living together requires shared norms. The idea that without belief in God humans will revert to killing and rape is clearly false. It's also evident that prisons are full of rapists and murderers who are theists. I can attest to this, having worked with prisoners and gang members, most of whom are believers.
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.5k
    Or perhaps religion and theism don't have as much to do with morality as some think, and are primarily a justification for particular codes of conduct, some of which we might consider immoral today.

    It’s not as if religions or theism doesn't commit egregious crimes against people, right?

    Zizek (borrowing from Lacan) flips Dostoevsky’s quote to account for the poor moral behaviour of theists: “If God exists, everything is permitted." Presumably the idea is that there's not a crime going that hasn't been justified by theists as part of God's plan.
    Tom Storm

    I'm guessing he means that one needs something to believe in, some passion for some end or another, to have people commit attrocities they normally wouldn't. I think that's true to some extend. He says something similar about poets if I remember correctly. One could do away with poetry or religion that inflame the passions, the question then is if a society doesn't lose something vital also in that process?

    Well, if you talk to some theists, they don’t think secular culture is moral. They see it as empty hedonism that promotes what they consider outrages, like gay marriage or expanded rights for women. What’s clear is that different moral systems or codes of conduct are at play simultaneously in the West, and they are unlikely to disappear. Humans are a social species, and living together requires shared norms. The idea that without belief in God humans will revert to killing and rape is clearly false. It's also evident that prisons are full of rapists and murderers who are theists. I can attest to this, having worked with prisoners and gang members, most of whom are believers.Tom Storm

    Maybe you can only see the effects of it over longer periods of time as religion slowly wanes from generation to generation. And I would say it is not only about more extreme things like killing and rape, but also about basic virtues, the general state people are in. And if you look at our secular societies today, maybe they have a point that it tends to hedonism. I'm not talking about gay marriage or something like that either, but generally there's a lot of drugs, gambling, lack of discipline, etc, etc, etc.

    And if we indeed need shared norms, isn't that essentially what religion does? Etymologically, religion comes from re-ligare, which means to bind, to unite. What does the uniting absent religion?
  • Tom Storm
    9.9k
    Some good points I agree with. But I would question whether a less secular society is more virtuous. It's only been a brief period in history during which general public have had access to education, money and recreation in any meaningful way. In the past, people worked hard and long simply because they had no choice. They often died young, and small children were sent out to work in dreadful conditions.

    I find it instructive to look at Hogarth’s 1751 etching Gin Lane, which reminds us that long before meth and fentanyl, parts of society were already being ruined by hard liquor. Even as the churches were full and vital. I'm not sure human nature changes much, regardless of which belief system predominates. Still, it has become fashionable to portray the present era as especially dire and in need of a nostalgia project, as seen in the work of popular podcasters like Jordan Peterson and John Vervaeke.
  • ChatteringMonkey
    1.5k
    The problem is a lack of telos, and a lack of hope that man can ever fulfill his innate, infinite desires. The cosmos is no longer an ordered whole animated by love. You lose the great Eastern thinkers (e.g. Saint Maximus the Confessor, Saint Gregory Palamas) vision of a cosmos moved by love to union in love, the process of exitus et reditus whereby everything in the cosmos is , a revelation of God, and history a path towards theosis.

    David Bentley Hart uses Dostoevsky as his main source for his book on theodicy, "The Gates of the Sea," and this is at least his reading too.
    Count Timothy von Icarus

    Christian theology is a bit of a blind spot for me unfortunately, so I'm not sure I have something sensible to say about it.

    Zosima, and Alyosha, which presumably are mouthpieces for Doestoevsky's views, are advocating love of everything as the way to go, in spite of all the bad in the world. That is contra the rational Ivan who is stuck on the problem of evil, i.e. what God would create a world where innocent babies are being killed.

    I could be way off here, but Exitus et reditus seems to have a lot of similarities with some of Nietzsches ideas like amor fati (love of everything, because everything is one, and thus wanting to change one thing is the same as wanting to change everything), eternal return (the cyclical nature of things) and the Dionesian (dissolution of boundaries to return to primordial one).

    The difference maybe is that Nietzsche doesn't see the Good as the source of everything. Time is a child playing dice (Heraclitus), meaning it's an arbirary, amoral universe. And presumably in an amoral universe love means something else than in a moral one.... a more aesthetic appreciation of surfaces, of the temporal and immanent, instead of a contemplative appreciation of the eternal and transcendent.
  • prothero
    514
    Dostoevsky seems to go back and forth about God. His tale of the suffering child in the Brothers Karamazov seems a powerful argument against a benevolent God and an argument against usual Christian polemics to justify the suffering.
    AI The theme of "the suffering child" is a profound and central element in Fyodor Dostoevsky's masterpiece, "The Brothers Karamazov." It is primarily articulated through the character of Ivan Karamazov, who uses the unimaginable suffering of innocent children as a central argument for his rejection of God's creation.

    Ivan presents a series of horrific anecdotes about children being tortured and abused, culminating in his famous "Rebellion" chapter where he declares that if the "eternal harmony" of the world requires the torture of even one innocent child, then he "most respectfully returns his ticket." He argues that no future good, no ultimate redemption, can justify such an immense and unmerited suffering.AI
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