I'm afraid this might end up as door-mat-ism.

I'm afraid this might end up as door-mat-ism. — frank

I don't know what that means. Please explain. Thank you.

I don't know what that means. Please explain. Thank you. — Truth Seeker

Doormatism is where a person acts like a doormat. Some people won't respect you unless you meet their aggression by making a giant fool out of them in front of everybody. After that, they'll magically respect you.

Doormatism is where a person acts like a doormat. Some people won't respect you unless you meet their aggression by making a giant fool out of them in front of everybody. After that, they'll magically respect you. — frank

Love for all is not doormatism because if you are acting like a doormat, you are not loving yourself. Loving all, is a balancing act, where one does one's best to make every interaction and transaction a win-win for everyone involved.

Love for all is not doormatism because if you are acting like a doormat, you are not loving yourself. Loving all, is a balancing act, where one does one's best to make every interaction and transaction a win-win for everyone involved. — Truth Seeker

I hear you. But with some people, you're going to have to rain hell down on them to make them leave you alone.

I hear you. But with some people, you're going to have to rain hell down on them to make them leave you alone. — frank

I understand what you mean. I have not met those people yet. I have met many selfish people in my life so far and I have done my best not to harm them and not be like them. I became a Compassionist on the 1st of April 2006 and have managed to practise Compassionism despite many challenges.

You joined on April Fools Day. Just kidding. That's great. I'm sure you're a positive influence on your community. Sometimes a little compassion makes a huge difference.

You joined on April Fools Day. Just kidding. That's great. I'm sure you're a positive influence on your community. Sometimes a little compassion makes a huge difference. — frank

I deliberately declared myself a Compassionist on April Fool's Day! I did this because the Bible (New Living Translation) says in Psalm 14:1, "Only fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!" I am an ex-Muslim ex-Christian Compassionist. The heart is a pump. My thoughts, emotions and choices occur in my brain.

This is the vow of a Compassionist:
1. I help all, harm none.
2. I see everyone - even the harmful, the indifferent, and the selfish - as shaped by forces beyond their control.
3. I replace blame and credit with understanding.
4. I replace judgment with care.
5. I love, not because the world is loving, but because love for all is the inevitable solution to the problems we face. — Truth Seeker

It's pretty much a form of Christianity. You seem to be intent on pushing yourself to be super good and significant in the world. Is this a bit grandiose; what's the motivation?

It's pretty much a form of Christianity. You seem to be intent on pushing yourself to be super good and significant in the world. Is this a bit grandiose; what's the motivation? — Tom Storm

I am an ex-Muslim ex-Christian Compassionist who does not believe in any God, so it is definitely not a form of Christianity. My motivation is my love for everyone.

I am an ex-Muslim ex-Christian Compassionist who does not believe in any God, so it is definitely not a form of Christianity. My motivation is my love for everyone. — Truth Seeker

It's still ostensibly like a Christian message. You don't need God to have a Christian moral outlook, it's embedded in culture. It's often said that human rights and secular morality are like Christianity sans Christ.

You seem to be driving yourself very hard.

It's still a Christian message. You don't need God to have a Christian moral outlook, it's embedded in culture. It's often said that human rights and secular morality are Christianity and Christ. — Tom Storm

Have you read the whole Bible?

Here are some verses where the Biblical God commands genocide:

1. 1 Samuel 15:3
“Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”
— God's command to Saul via the prophet Samuel.

2. Numbers 31:17 - 18
“Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”
— Moses conveys God’s command after the Israelites' war with the Midianites.

3. Deuteronomy 2:34
“At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them - men, women and children. We left no survivors.”
— Description of Israel’s conquests commanded by God.

4. Deuteronomy 3:6
“We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city - men, women and children.”

5. Joshua 6:21
“They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.”
— Refers to the destruction of Jericho.

6. Hosea 13:16
“The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.”
— A prophetic warning attributed to God's judgment.

Here are some Bible verses about slavery:

1. Exodus 21:2–6 – Hebrew slaves can be kept for six years, unless they choose to stay permanently. Female slaves and children are treated as property.

"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free..."

2. Exodus 21:20–21 – If a slaveowner beats a slave and the slave dies immediately, it's punishable. But if the slave lingers for a day or two before dying, the owner is not punished.

"He is not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

3. Leviticus 25:44–46 – Foreigners can be bought as slaves and inherited as property, passed on to children.

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you... you can make them your property for life."

4. Deuteronomy 15:12–18 – Hebrew slaves are to be released after six years, with generosity, but only applies to fellow Israelites.

"...do not send them away empty-handed. Supply them liberally..."

5. Deuteronomy 20:10–14 – Women and children of conquered peoples can be taken as plunder.

"...you may take the women, children, livestock, and everything else in the city as plunder for yourselves..."

6. Deuteronomy 21:10–14 – Allows Israelites to take captive women as wives after war.

"...bring her into your home... shave her head, trim her nails..."

7. Deuteronomy 23:15–16 – Unusually, this permits escaped slaves to live freely in Israel and forbids returning them to their masters.

8. Numbers 31:17–18 – After war with the Midianites, Moses instructs the Israelites to kill all boys and non-virgin women, but keep virgin girls for themselves.

"...keep alive for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

8. Ephesians 6:5–8 – Slaves are told to obey their earthly masters as they would obey Christ.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart..."

9. Colossians 3:22–25 – Similar to Ephesians, reinforcing obedience of slaves.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything..."

10. 1 Timothy 6:1–2 – Slaves should regard their masters as worthy of full respect.

"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect..."

11. Titus 2:9–10 – Slaves are told to be subject to their masters in everything, to be trustworthy and not talk back.

"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything..."

12. 1 Peter 2:18–21 – Slaves should submit to even harsh masters and endure suffering as a good thing in God's eyes.

"...if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God."

13. Philemon 1:10–16 – Paul sends the escaped slave Onesimus back to his master Philemon, though urges Philemon to receive him kindly as a brother.

"...no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother."

14. Luke 12:47–48 – In a parable, Jesus describes a master beating his slaves, with no condemnation of the master.

"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready... will be beaten with many blows."

Here are some verses where Jesus speaks or acts malevolently:

1. "I came not to bring peace, but a sword."
Matthew 10:34–36

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother...’”
This contradicts the image of Jesus as a peacemaker and suggests division and familial conflict.

2. "Throw them into the blazing furnace..."
Matthew 13:41–42

“The Son of Man will send out his angels... They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Jesus speaks of violent eternal punishment for the wicked — a recurring theme in his parables.

3. "Bring them here and kill them in front of me."
Luke 19:27 (from the Parable of the Ten Minas)

“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them — bring them here and kill them in front of me.”
While technically part of a parable, the speaker in the story represents Jesus himself. The violent imagery is unsettling.

4. "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire..."
Matthew 25:41

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”
Another passage affirming belief in eternal torment for nonbelievers or those who fail to do good.

5. Drowns 2,000 pigs after casting out demons
Mark 5:11–13

“He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd... rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.”
Jesus allows a legion of demons to destroy innocent animals — property of the local people.

6. "Let the dead bury their own dead."
Matthew 8:21–22

“Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
This callous-sounding response comes after a man asks permission to bury his father first.

7. "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother..."
Luke 14:26

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters — yes, even their own life — such a person cannot be my disciple.”
A demand for total allegiance to Jesus over all human relationships — using the word hate.

8. "It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs."
Matthew 15:22–26

“It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
Jesus compares a Canaanite (non-Jewish) woman to a dog when she asks for healing for her daughter.

9. Curses a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season
Mark 11:12–14, 20–21

“May no one ever eat fruit from you again.”
Jesus kills a fig tree for having no fruit — despite it not being the season for figs.

10. "Whoever is not with me is against me..."
Matthew 12:30

“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.”
This black-and-white view implies no neutrality or middle ground — only allegiance or opposition.

As you can see from the quoted Bible verses, Christianity is not all-loving.

Compassionism stems from hard determinism and the resultant compassion for all.

As you can see from the quoted Bible verses, Christianity is not all-loving. — Truth Seeker

I never said Christianity is all loving and I know the old testament God is like a violent mafia boss. I said your message was ostensibly Christian. And it certainly fits.

But none of that really matters.

Why the preoccupation with being good in every possible circumstance?

I never said Christianity is all loving and I know the old testament God is like a violent mafia boss. I said your message was ostensibly Christian. And it certainly fits. — Tom Storm

It's not just the Old Testament God, the New Testament God is also evil. My message is very far from Christianity because my message has nothing to do with Christ. Christianity does not teach hard determinism, and it does not teach love for all. Compassionism stems from hard determinism.

Why the preoccupation with being good in every possible circumstance? — Tom Storm

It's the inevitable outcome of my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences dynamically interacting with each other. I deserver neither blame, nor credit for anything. Nor does any other organism.





Genes, early environments, early nutrients, and early experiences play a foundational role in the lives of all living things. When my Dad's sperm fused with my Mum's egg, a zygote was formed. If I were to go back in time and replace the genes in that zygote with the genes of a planarian and change the cellular structures to match planarian cells, you would be able to behead me, and I would just be able to grow a new head and brain. Genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences don't merely influence our choices. They determine our choices, and they constrain our choices. A planarian can't post my posts to you because he or she does not have my genes, my environments, my nutrients and my experiences. This is 100% certain. It is also 100% certain that no living thing chooses to come into existence, chooses their genes, early environments, early nutrients, and early experiences. We can't be blamed or credited for the foundational variables of our lives that we did not choose at all. We all make choices, but our choices are never free from the determinants - which are genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences (GENE). Nor are our choices free from constraints. Also, our choices have consequences on ourselves, the world and others. I call this the GENE Causal Self Model. It has a sequence:
World + Others →
Genes + Environments + Nutrients + Experiences →
Desire (what we want to do) + Capacity (what we can do) →
Behaviour (what we actually do) →
Changes to Genes + Environments + Nutrients + Experiences + changes to the World and Others.

The world and others create genes, environments, nutrients and experiences, which construct the self, which has desires and capacities, which lead to behaviour, which leads to changes to genes, environments, nutrients and experiences and changes to the world and others.

I get that you disagree with me about the Christianity reference. Disagreement is healthy. Happy to put to that to one side. The question remains: Why the preoccupation with being good in every possible circumstance?

I get that you disagree with me about the Christianity reference. Disagreement is healthy. Happy to put to that to one side. The question remains: Why the preoccupation with being good in every possible circumstance? — Tom Storm

I already answered this question in my previous post. It's the inevitable outcome of my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences dynamically interacting with each other. If you had my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, then you would be typing these words where and when I am typing these words. Conversely, if I had your genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, then I would be reading these words where and when you are reading these words. We are all living inevitable lives by making inevitable choices.

I’m not sure that answers the question. What you’re saying is a well-known trope, essentially, if you were me you would be following the same path.

But my question isn’t about the obvious factors of personal situations/histories/biology, but about the specific thoughts or questions that you are working to address through your preoccupation with goodness. I’m assuming you are trying to achieve something and I’m interested in what that is. But you don’t need to answer if you don’t want to.

I’m not sure that answers the question. What you’re saying is a well-known trope, essentially, if you were me you would be following the same path.

But my question isn’t about the obvious factors of personal situations/histories/biology, but about the specific thoughts or questions that you are working to address through your preoccupation with goodness. I’m assuming you are trying to achieve something and I’m interested in what that is. But you don’t need to answer if you don’t want to. — Tom Storm

I agree that if I were you, I would be making your choices and vice versa. My goal is to save and improve as many lives as possible. The reason this is my goal is the fact that there is much suffering, injustice, and death in the world.

This is the vow of a Compassionist:
1. I help all, harm none.
2. I see everyone - even the harmful, the indifferent, and the selfish - as shaped by forces beyond their control.
3. I replace blame and credit with understanding.
4. I replace judgment with care.
5. I love, not because the world is loving, but because love for all is the inevitable solution to the problems we face. — Truth Seeker

That sounds like an awful existence.

I could not be arsed with and I am dismissive of selfish people. My one existence is not being encumbered by people who are harmful or selfish. Indifferent is my status for all the people who are on the edges of my social circle.

1. Why the need to help all? Some people need a kick up the arse.
2. I get how environment etc moulds a person but once you become an adult you have agency to change
3 I respect everyone until they lose respect
4 That is for very close family only. Everyone else will be cared for and judged on their merits.
5 I love the people who I have chosen to have in my life. The rest are in zone of indifference. I like being indifferent to people who bring nothing into my life. I'm indifferent to people who try and bring harm. I won't waste emotional energy on people who mean nothing to me.

I'm definitely not a follower of compassionism.

The murderer did not freely choose to become a murderer.
The healer did not freely choose to become a healer. — Truth Seeker

I did not choose to demand accountability for action. I did not choose to demand compliance to morality and law.
I did not choose to condemn evil and promote the good.

So please dear friend, do not judge me and please show me compassion when I hire more police officers, build more jails, and empower more prosecutors and judges to assure safety to the citizens.

Not only do I ignore your plea for universal compassion, but it inspires in me a greater sense of urgency to judge right from wrong because I see how far we have fallen.

Show me your compassion and let me do as I must, and so with each murderer I imprison, cheer for me, knowing you're allowing me to live out my nature.

I'm definitely not a follower of compassionism. — Malcolm Parry

If I had your genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, I wouldn't be a compassionist either.

No blame, no credit, only understanding and love for you and everyone else, too.

So please dear friend, do not judge me and please show me compassion when I hire more police officers, build more jails, and empower more prosecutors and judges to assure safety to the citizens. — Hanover

Of course, I don't judge you. If I had your genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, I would do as you do.

Of course, I don't judge you. If I had your genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences, I would do as you do. — Truth Seeker

Totally get it. And that's why you just said what you said, not necessarily because you mean it, but just because you had to say it. If you tell me that you really do mean it, I'll not know if you do, but just know that you had to say it, and even if I accept you mean it, I'll know at some level that I accepted it becasue I had to. But of course all this will only happen if it had to, just like the pool ball is going to go where ever it has to now that the cue ball has been struck. It's just a matter of bouncing around now. Or maybe not. Maybe that's the analogy I had to say and I only really think it means what I said because I have to.

Totally get it. And that's why you just said what you said, not necessarily because you mean it, but just because you had to say it. — Hanover

I mean what I said.

I mean what I said. — Truth Seeker

You say what you must, which is to say you mean what you say.

Compassionism only works if all follows compassionism, and all can only follow compassionism if all are equally able to suppress their emotions in face of violence acted upon them.

It is a condition that is unattainable for society, even if it’s a virtue to live by. But it becomes as naive as turning the other cheek, because the psychology of people, the sociology of groups are far more complex than able to be governed by individuals showing absolute compassion.

It is fundamentally not compatible with human nature on a large scale, and is instead a privilege of the ones able to maintain absolute empathy in all situations, which most people do not.

It becomes a utopian ideal that is unattainable in practice as not all problems can be fixed by such a mindset.

I’m reminded of an organization in Sweden which speaks for world peace and who constantly oppose Sweden sending weapons to Ukraine to help them fight back against the invading Russia. This organization is fundamentally correct in what they strive for, but their absolute stance is a naive approach which ignores that stopping help to Ukraine would undoubtably lead to continued atrocities by the Russian forces, with the rapes and murders of civilians that we saw at the beginning of the invasion. The group’s compassion does not help people at all, and instead would just leave an open playing field for those who fundamentally oppose compassion.

That humanity doesn't have free will, that we are bound to the consequences of the genes and environment we grow up in, does not mean we shouldn’t have boundaries that mitigate dangerous individuals, groups and nations. That knowledge only informs the need to have a society that mitigates the possibility of forming such violence, but we cannot just accept the violence that is already happening or accept such individuals through compassion. Because the compassionate act should reasonably be towards the innocent victims of the violence and preventing them from being harmed, and that might sometime require that we act in opposition of compassion, against the violent aggressors with violence. The act of compassion in this case, is to destroy the aggressor with violence to protect the innocent.

This is why morality cannot be boiled down to a simple manifest of absolutist empathy or compassion, because it becomes a naive ignorance of the complexity of human psychology and its effect on society as a whole.

On 24 December 2024, a Christian man smeared our window with blood and tried to knock our front door down. He gave us death threats. We phoned the police and the police arrested him. The police wanted to know if we wanted to press charges. We said that we didn't want to press charges and asked the police to get the man help for his alcoholism. The police did that and the man is in a program for alcoholism. If we had pressed charges, the man would have gone to jail because we recorded his death threats.

Six of my relatives and my best friend were killed in separate incidents. I didn't hunt down the perpetrators and punish them. Could any of the perpetrators have refrained from killing? Not unless the determinants (i.e. genes, environments, nutrients and experiences) of their choices were changed.

The tit for tat approach makes the world worse. Of course, we need to protect victims from perpetrators - we should do this by placing perpetrators in quarantine and helping them change.