Vague, unsupported, low quality arm waving.

The poor shall inherit the earth" - used to placate the oppressed. — Truth Seeker

You seem to have conflated verse 3--"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" and verse 5--"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth".

In any case, you probably don't want to be taken as a biblical literalist, so don't be too literal in your interpretation. Jesus wasn't promising a land redistribution program. Which earth will they inherit--the present land or the future Kingdom of God? Jesus was proclaiming the Kingdom of God, not a Marxist revolution.

By the way, a nice sarcastic line comes from the Broadway musical, "Camelot": in a song about the Seven Deadly Virtues Richard Burton sings, "It's not the earth the meek inherit, it's the dirt."

Billionaire-backed religious movements have pushed anti-science, anti-women, and anti-LGBTQ+ agendas to keep their base loyal and distracted from economic injustice — Truth Seeker

True, but it doesn't require billionaires backing religious movements for 'backwards' religious groups to sink into a mire of anti-science, low female status, anti-GLBT policy, and maintaining ignorance of economic injustice. Ordinary people can do this all by their ordinary selves.

Still and all, I'll grant that religion and power tend to end up in bed together and the rest of us get fucked as a result.

People are encouraged to pray rather than protest — Truth Seeker

Like the Civil Rights movement did--pray before they went out and faced fire hoses, hostile police, dogs, and hatred. I agree, though: Prayer without action doesn't do much. Here's another good quote you might like, this from a lapsed Episcopalian priest: "Nothing fails like prayer."

Religion, like every human endeavor, tends toward corruption, but every now and then humans rise above the muck and pull off sublime acts. Thinking here of people like Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker Movement; the Southern Christian Leadership Conference; or the Dalai Lama's efforts on behalf of the Tibetan people and culture.

Emmanuel Kant said that "Nothing straight was ever built with the crooked timber of mankind." So, why expect religions to be better than anything else?

Emmanuel Kant said that "Nothing straight was ever built with the crooked timber of mankind." So, why expect religions to be better than anything else? — BC

Hmm. We might reasonably expect religion to be better, morally or existentially, than other human pursuits. After all, unlike sales, filmmaking, car manufacturing, or blacksmithing, religion claims to orient itself around the ultimate concern, divine guidance, and the pursuit of goodness. If it doesn’t offer something deeper than any other human activity, then one may as well ask, what's the point? :razz:

one may as well ask, what's the point? — Tom Storm

One may indeed ask, "what's the point?" But to use a religious phrase, a particular religious activity, organization, experience or belief must be "judged by its fruits". The harvest ranges from very bad, on through mediocre, and on to very good, with the largest bin being "mediocre". That's typical performance for the species. We can rejoice in the good, regret the bad (and arrest those who are actually criminal), and urge the mediocre to try harder.

Should religion be better than Real Estate? Sure, but crooked timber is the only kind at the lumberyard. Every now and then, someone manages to overcome their crooked timber and do a straightforward good job. It's also true that there are people who IF they had perfectly square planks would still make a mess of it.

As for me, I am just another pile of warped boards.

Vague, unsupported, low quality arm waving. — T Clark

Odd. That ↑ comment looked like a (low-quality) hand-wave to me. :wink:

Odd. That ↑ comment looked like a (low-quality) hand-wave to me. — jorndoe

Oh. @jorndoe. You’re so cute.

@Banno

I'd already avoided saying that.

In the new order, all comments regarding religion must be deferential, apparently.

Jordan Peterson has a new book. :roll:

But the insistent contempt for nuance and disagreement (“idiotic”, “addled”, “egregious”), and the reduction of any alternative perspective to its most shallow or trivial form, does not encourage the serious engagement Peterson presumably wants. This is an odd book, whose effect is to make the resonant stories it discusses curiously abstract. “Matter and impertinency mixed”, in Shakespeare’s phrase. — We Who Wrestle With God by Jordan Peterson review – a culture warrior out of his depth

The poor shall inherit the earth" - used to placate the oppressed.
— Truth Seeker

You seem to have conflated verse 3--"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" and verse 5--"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth". — BC

I was thinking of Luke Chapter 6:

20Looking up at His disciples, Jesus said:

“Blessed are you who are poor,

for yours is the kingdom of God.

21Blessed are you who hunger now,

for you will be filled.

Blessed are you who weep now,

for you will laugh.

22Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil because of the Son of Man. 23Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For their fathers treated the prophets in the same way.

24But woe to you who are rich,

for you have already received your comfort.

25Woe to you who are well fed now,

for you will hunger.

Woe to you who laugh now,

for you will mourn and weep.

26Woe to you when all men speak well of you,

for their fathers treated the false prophets in the same way.

why expect religions to be better than anything else? — BC

If religions have a divine origin, then they should be perfect. Sadly, they are of human origin, hence their imperfections.

If religions have a divine origin, then they should be perfect. Sadly, they are of human origin, hence their imperfections. — Truth Seeker

Kind of ironic though. Implying your ability to understand is perfect in this one context only for no reason at all. :lol:

More so, as to the original point, what about how the "hyper strong" use their size as a tool to enslave anyone weaker or smaller or less powerful either as an individual or ethnic group?

Major flaw and in my view, purposely overlooked hole, in the spirit of the OP. But hey, you're imperfect, as you admit. All par for the course, assuredly. :grin:

Implying your ability to understand is perfect — Outlander

My ability to understand is not perfect. Everything that exists is imperfect.

My ability to understand is not perfect. Everything that exists is imperfect. — Truth Seeker

See, here's the kicker. To be able to definitively say, without lying "everything is [X, Y, Z]" requires a perfect understanding. At least, one that is considerably refined. How can you know what is perfect and imperfect, without being perfect? You can't. You're guessing. Which is fine. But doesn't really churn an argument or debate forward in any positive or notable way. Do you see the point I'm trying to make? Imperfect as it is. :wink:

The only real value that religion has is the potential to make the imperfect perfect and imperfect and neither imperfect nor perfect.

See, here's the kicker. To be able to definitively say, without lying "everything is [X, Y, Z]" requires a perfect understanding. At least, one that is considerably refined. How can you know what is perfect and imperfect, without being perfect? You can't. — Outlander

I disagree. I scored 73% in my course. I know this is not a perfect score, which is 100%. I don't need to be perfect to know what is perfect and what is imperfect.

Joshua 10:12 - 14, the Bible (New International Version):

12 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on[a] its enemies,

as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!

Why isn't the standing still of the sun and the moon not recorded by other cultures that had invented writing?

The event described in Joshua 10:12–14, where the sun and moon are said to have stood still to allow the Israelites more time to defeat their enemies, would - if taken literally - constitute a global astronomical phenomenon. If the Earth’s rotation truly stopped or slowed (which is what "the sun stood still" would physically mean), it would have had catastrophic global consequences, including massive earthquakes, tsunamis, and changes in atmospheric motion due to sudden deceleration.

Such an event could not have gone unnoticed by other civilisations and would have been recorded by other literate cultures that kept astronomical or historical records.

At the time (around 13th to 15th century BCE, depending on the dating of the conquest narratives), several advanced civilisations with writing and astronomical records existed, including:

Egyptians
Babylonians
Chinese (Shang Dynasty)
Minoans/Mycenaeans
Sumerians
Indus Valley remnants

Yet none of these cultures, despite their meticulous sky observations, record a day when the sun and moon stood still or behaved abnormally. I conclude that this is because the Bible is lying about the Biblical God making the sun and the moon stand still.

THE BIBLICAL GOD COMMANDING GENOCIDES
The Bible, particularly the Old Testament, contains several verses in which God is described as commanding the complete destruction of entire peoples - actions that meet the definition of genocide: the intentional destruction, in whole or in part, of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. Below is a list of such verses, mostly from the books of Deuteronomy, Joshua, Numbers, and 1 Samuel.

1. Deuteronomy 7:1–2

"When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations... you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy."
— Commands total destruction of seven nations

2. Deuteronomy 20:16–17

"However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you."
— Commands killing of everything that breathes


3. Numbers 31:17–18

"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
— Massacre of Midianites; only virgin girls spared as sexual slaves

4. 1 Samuel 15:2–3

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites... Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
— Explicit command to kill children and infants

5. Joshua 6:21

"They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it — men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys."
— Jericho: all inhabitants slaughtered

6. Joshua 10:40

"So Joshua subdued the whole region... He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded."
— Genocidal conquest of the entire southern region

7. Joshua 11:11–12

"Everyone in it they put to the sword. They totally destroyed them, not sparing anyone that breathed, and he burned Hazor itself."
— Northern campaign led by Joshua

8. Deuteronomy 2:33–35

"The LORD our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army... We completely destroyed them."
— Refers to Sihon the Amorite king and his people

9. Judges 20:48

"The men of Israel went back to Benjamin and put all the towns to the sword, including the animals and everything else they found. All the towns they came across they set on fire."
— Near total destruction of the tribe of Benjamin

The Bible contains multiple verses that regulate, endorse, or command various forms of slavery, including chattel slavery and sex slavery. These appear primarily in the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible)

GENERAL SLAVERY IN THE BIBLE

Leviticus 25:44–46 (NIV)

“Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you... You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life.”
— Endorses chattel slavery of foreigners as permanent property.

Exodus 21:2–6

“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free... But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master...’ then his master... shall pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.”
— Allows indefinite enslavement of Hebrews who choose to stay.

Exodus 21:20–21

“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies... But if the slave recovers after a day or two, the owner is not to be punished, since the slave is their property.”
— Permits beating slaves nearly to death without punishment.

Deuteronomy 20:10–11, 14

“When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace... If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.”
— Allows the enslavement of conquered peoples.

Ephesians 6:5 (New Testament)

“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.”
— Reinforces obedience to masters without calling for abolition.

SEXUAL SLAVERY IN THE BIBLE

Numbers 31:17–18

“Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”
— After war with the Midianites, virgin girls are taken for male use; widely interpreted as sexual slavery.

Deuteronomy 21:10–14

“When you go to war... and you see a beautiful woman among the captives and become enamoured with her, you may take her as your wife... If you are not pleased with her, let her go... you must not sell or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.”
— Allows war captors to forcefully take women as wives.

New Testament verses supporting slavery

Ephesians 6:5–8 – Slaves are told to obey their earthly masters as they would obey Christ.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart..."

Colossians 3:22–25 – Similar to Ephesians, reinforcing obedience of slaves.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything..."

1 Timothy 6:1–2 – Slaves should regard their masters as worthy of full respect.

"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect..."

Titus 2:9–10 – Slaves are told to be subject to their masters in everything, to be trustworthy and not talk back.

"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything..."

1 Peter 2:18–21 – Slaves should submit to even harsh masters and endure suffering as a good thing in God's eyes.

"...if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God."

Philemon 1:10–16 – Paul sends the escaped slave Onesimus back to his master Philemon, though urges Philemon to receive him kindly as a brother.

"...no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother."

Luke 12:47–48 – In a parable, Jesus describes a master beating his slaves, with no condemnation of the master.

"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready... will be beaten with many blows."

Here are some verses where Jesus speaks or acts malevolently:

1. "I came not to bring peace, but a sword."
Matthew 10:34–36

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother...’”
This contradicts the image of Jesus as a peacemaker and suggests division and familial conflict.

2. "Throw them into the blazing furnace..."
Matthew 13:41–42

“The Son of Man will send out his angels... They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Jesus speaks of violent eternal punishment for the wicked — a recurring theme in his parables.

3. "Bring them here and kill them in front of me."
Luke 19:27 (from the Parable of the Ten Minas)

“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them — bring them here and kill them in front of me.”
While technically part of a parable, the speaker in the story represents Jesus himself. The violent imagery is unsettling.

4. "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire..."
Matthew 25:41

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”
Another passage affirming belief in eternal torment for nonbelievers or those who fail to do good.

5. Drowns 2,000 pigs after casting out demons
Mark 5:11–13

“He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd... rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.”
Jesus allows a legion of demons to destroy innocent animals — property of the local people.

6. "Let the dead bury their own dead."
Matthew 8:21–22

“Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
This callous-sounding response comes after a man asks permission to bury his father first.

7. "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother..."
Luke 14:26

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters — yes, even their own life — such a person cannot be my disciple.”
A demand for total allegiance to Jesus over all human relationships — using the word hate.

8. "It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs."
Matthew 15:22–26

“It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
Jesus compares a Canaanite (non-Jewish) woman to a dog when she asks for healing for her daughter.

9. Curses a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season
Mark 11:12–14, 20–21

“May no one ever eat fruit from you again.”
Jesus kills a fig tree for having no fruit — despite it not being the season for figs.

10. "Whoever is not with me is against me..."
Matthew 12:30

“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.”
This black-and-white view implies no neutrality or middle ground — only allegiance or opposition.

God lied to Adam and Eve

Genesis 2:16,17
And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

What was said: In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam that eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil would result in death on that day.

What happened: Adam and Eve eat the fruit, but they do not die that day. Instead, they are:

Banished from Eden.

Cursed with suffering (painful childbirth, hard labor, mortality).

Told they would return to dust — implying eventual death, not immediate.

Wider Fallout: Collective Punishment
Not only were Adam and Eve punished, but all of humanity and even non-human animals suffer and die.

Eve’s punishment was extended to all women, with pain in childbirth and submission to men (Genesis 3:16).

Adam’s punishment led to a cursed ground, requiring hard labor to survive (Genesis 3:17–19).

This presents God as:

Inflicting intergenerational punishment.

Imposing suffering on billions (including animals) for a single act of disobedience.

Commanding reproduction (Genesis 1:28, Genesis 3:16) even though childbirth is cursed — a painful contradiction.

Deception: God said one thing (immediate death) but did something else.

Cruelty: Instead of just death, the punishment was lifelong and multigenerational suffering.

Injustice: All descendants and other species suffer for the mistake of two.

From an ethical perspective, punishing innocents for the actions of others — especially when omniscient and omnipotent — is morally evil.

Please see https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com which goes through the Bible, the Quran, the Book of Mormon and the Bhagavad Gita and points out the various issues with them. If you are short on time, please see https://www.evilbible.com which goes through the evil verses in the Bible.

I don't need to be perfect to know which Biblical verses are evil.

I am completely certain of the following:

1. I am conscious as I type these words.
2. I am typing in English.
3. I am not all-knowing.
4. I am not all-powerful.
5. I change.
6. I know concepts, e.g. what a square or circle or triangle is.
7. I know apparent facts about reality, e.g. the Earth orbits the Sun, the Moon orbits the Earth.
8. I know how to walk, run, eat, drink, cook, shop, work, read, write, type, go to the toilet, cycle, swim, etc.
9. I can't do lots of things I really want to do e.g. go back in time and prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths and make all living things forever happy.
10. I do some things even though I don't want to do them. Here are some things I have done, currently do or will do even though I don't want to do them:

1. Breathe
2. Eat
3. Drink
4. Sleep
5. Dream
7. Pee
8. Poo
9. Fart
10. Burp
11. Sneeze
12. Cough
13. Age
14. Get ill
15. Get injured
16. Sweat
17. Cry
18. Suffer
19. Snore
20. Think
21. Feel
22. Choose
23. Be conceived
24. Be born
25. Remember some events that I don't want to remember
26. Forget information that I want to remember
27. Die

I am almost certain of the following:

1. I and all the other organisms currently alive will die. Every second brings all organisms closer to death.
2. My body, other organisms, the Earth and the Universe really exist and they are not part of a simulation or hallucination or dream or illusion.
3. Other organisms, e.g. humans, cows, dogs, cats, chickens, pigs, lions, elephants, butterflies, whales, dolphins, etc., are sentient beings who feel pain.
4. Being a non-consumer is more ethical than being an autotroph, being an autotroph is more ethical than being a vegan/herbivore, being a vegan is more ethical than being a vegetarian, and being a vegetarian is more ethical than being an omnivore or carnivore.
5. Gods do not exist.
6. Souls do not exist.
7. Reincarnation does not happen.
8. Resurrection does not happen.
10. Organisms evolved and were not created by God or Gods.
11. 99.9% of all the species to evolve so far on Earth became extinct in 5 mass extinctions long before humans evolved.
12. Humans and other organisms make choices but they are not free from determinants and constraints. Our choices are determined and constrained by our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. The reason I have put this one in the almost certain category is that it is possible that bodies, genes, cells, stars, planets, moons, galaxies, universes may not actually exist. These things could be part of a simulation or dream or hallucination or illusion. It is impossible to know with complete certainty. I could be a solipsistic soul experiencing the illusion of being in a human body on a planet in a universe or I could be a body without any soul - I don't know these things for sure, hence I am an agnostic. There are many hypotheses that can't be tested e.g. simulation hypothesis, illusion hypothesis, dream hypothesis, hallucination hypothesis, solipsism hypothesis, philosophical zombie hypothesis, panpsychism hypothesis, deism hypothesis, theism hypothesis, pantheism hypothesis, panentheism hypothesis, etc. Just because a hypothesis can't be tested, it does not mean it is true or false. It just means that it is currently untestable.

Sounds like a Marxist liberation from religion ideology. Controlling the masses through religion and all.

The Nietzchian response is to eliminate Christianity not because it's being used disparately to subjugate, but because it's subjugating the powerful by imposing the morality of the weak upon the strong. So, to the extent the suggestion is that the problem is that religion is being used to control the weak, there is an argument that it is being used to control the strong.

I see it as neither, but just a general observation about politics and how power is imposed upon people with a special pleading upon religion, as if the political mechanisms of religion for social control are importantly distinct from all the other ways human beings play king of the hill. Whether you control beliefs, normative behavior, or actual law, you can do that for the purposes of promoting your own interests or you can do it for the betterment of society. The track record of politicians generally is far from perfect, regardless of what ideology they espouse.

In the new order, all comments regarding religion must be deferential, apparently. — Banno

Perhaps respectful as opposed to deferential. Or not, if it's a shouting match or snarkiness competition you prefer.

I scored 73% in my exam. — Truth Seeker

Cs get degrees I always say.

The Nietzchian response is to eliminate Christianity not because it's being used disparately to subjugate, but because it's subjugating the powerful by imposing the morality of the weak upon the strong. So, to the extent the suggestion is that the problem is that religion is being used to control the weak, there is an argument that it is being used to control the strong. — Hanover

Shouldn't there be a universal morality, regardless of whether one is weak or strong? Surely, we need an egalitarian morality and an egalitarian legal system for everyone?

The Nietzchian response is a deeply elitist framework. It treats strength as inherently good and weakness as inherently bad.

It ignores the value of moral equality, mutual care, and justice in favour of glorifying power and dominance.

It downplays the historic role of Christianity (and other religions) in oppressing the weak as much as, or more than, constraining the strong.

Cs get degrees I always say. — Hanover

What is "Cs"?

What is "Cs"? — Truth Seeker

I guess it's an American expression. A "C" (as opposed to an A or B) is an average grade. You can be average and still get a degree.

In the United Kingdom, if you get 70% or above, you get a 1st class Bachelor's Degree and a Distinction level Master's Degree.

In the United Kingdom, if you get 70% or above, you get a 1st class Bachelor's Degree and a Distinction level Master's Degree. — Truth Seeker

In the US, a 70% would be considered barely hanging in there, and in some programs that would be considered a D, just short of failing. If knowledge of only 70% of the material is considered stellar, then in the US, they'd curve the grade scale to make that an A because the grades reflect a particular standard as opposed to a particular percentage mastered. Also, there's grade inflation in the US so as to combat hurt feelings. We make sure everyone gets a trophy, but I digress.

In the U.K. the university grading is different from the school grading. For example, at age 18, we do A Levels here, which are graded like this:

A*: 90% and above ​
A: 80-89%​
B: 70-79%​
C: 60-69%​
D: 50-59%​
E: 40-49%​

Is the school grading and university grading different in the USA?

↪jorndoe I'd already avoided saying that. — Banno

You’re just jealous because I think @jorndoe is cute too.