Why do we need to change the topic? How are you going to make any significant point about woke and how does it refute what I said about woke being contradictory for you to ask the above?? — Fire Ologist
I’ve given 10 times more analysis to chew on here than you have. WTF is this insult for? — Fire Ologist
No need to think critically is one of the tenets of wokism. — Fire Ologist
The democrat candidate for governor in Virginia tells everyone to “let your rage fuel you”.
— praxis
Looks like a good statement for those willing to defend the will of God. Hitler and Trump built their campaigns on people's fears and anger. It is psychological warfare before action is taken. — Athena
you are using a broad brush here… …as long as you use that broad brush you aren’t landing your points with your actual target. — DingoJones
I addressed the material-feminist/trans-activist conflict. — praxis
“I’m not ‘anti-woke’ if by that you mean caring about social justice — I just don’t think justice is served by denying reality.”
Both material feminists and trans activists claim to defend vulnerable groups — but define “vulnerability” and “justice” differently when it comes to policy-level consequences (sports, prisons, language, healthcare, etc.). — praxis
feigning ignorance of what woke is — praxis
I am just talking — praxis
the tenants of wokeism which are supposed to be:
Social Justice as Central Moral Priority
Systemic Power Analysis
Identity as Moral and Epistemic Category
Language Shapes Reality
Moral Urgency and Activism
Intersectionality
Historical Accountability — praxis
the tenants of wokeism:
Social Justice as Central Moral Priority
Systemic Power Analysis
Identity as Moral and Epistemic Category
Language Shapes Reality
Moral Urgency and Activism
Intersectionality
Historical Accountability — praxis
I think I’ve made quite a few specific points, and provided support. I am primarily interested in you showing me some point you think I am making and how such point is being framed too broadly.
One example would be great, but it sounds like you have a few. — Fire Ologist
That defines the problem. That doesn’t address anything. — Fire Ologist
Wokeness eats the woke, and has no principle upon which to adjudicate between disputing wokeists. — Fire Ologist
Keep insulting me too. It makes me look good. So thanks. — Fire Ologist
That just means the taxpayers aren’t going to be forced to pay for whatever the college wants to say and promote. It has zero impact on freedom. — Fire Ologist
I’m sure you are right about some improper arrests. Point one out. Who was arrested for speech? — Fire Ologist
We are talking about kids K-12. These are almost entirely minors. Ok? Kids. — Fire Ologist
State funded colleges and universities? Or all of them? If all of them, the laws are a problem. If state funded, be brave my anxious friend. — Fire Ologist
I keep hammering on about moral principles, and free speech absolutism is one. Don't make any justifications of abuses of that principle aligned with your 'tribe' or you open yourself up to accusations of hypocrisy. The spike in firings was political, even if in some individual cases it may have been justified.
It's a conservative talking point. You may believe it sincerely, you might be right substantively, but that's the danger of binary tribalism. I assume good faith, but if I believe you are compelled to 'pick a side', that taints my impression of your integrity. — Jeremy Murray
And you'd be saying that if it was the other way round, with conservative ideas banned and liberal ideas explicitly mandated under financial penalty? — Mijin
So again, you don't care about the government impinging on free speech as long as it's your side and your ideology. — Mijin
Defining a problem is the first step in addressing it. — praxis
a whinny bitch — praxis
your targets are hearing “anti racism and equity are so and so” — DingoJones
Yeah, but you said you addressed it.
And it took you 30 pages to define your thoughts on woke. (I think they are your thoughts.). — Fire Ologist
BTW Jeremy Murray do you appreciate now why the 1% figure was not a number plucked from nowhere; it was an attempt to weigh up the attacks on freedom of speech, leaning towards being generous towards the MAGA side. — Mijin
You misunderstand me. It is principled, and I seek actions consistent with that principle. My principle is in response to the infringement of free speech (and free assembly and association) by the government, through legislation and force — Fire Ologist
You’ve said, not in so many words, “hypocrisy” as I am “hammering on about” “justifications of abuses” and tainting my own integrity. — Fire Ologist
So what Brendan Carr (FCC chair) did to ABC/Disney was an attack on free speech. It was akin to government making a law and seeking to enforce a shut down of what ABC was broadcasting. — Fire Ologist
this conflict between Kimmel and ABC is not the same conflict as between ABC and the government. — Fire Ologist
If we infringe on this right of employers, we are limiting freedom for all people, not protecting rights. Government laws to stop employers from firing regardless of contract would be the end of free speech anywhere. — Fire Ologist
But since when do we want to force employers to continue to pay people whose public displays can make the company look like assholes too? — Fire Ologist
But are you going all woke on me in your tactics? Et tu? Am I a hypocrite with no integrity who parrots talking points, or just another citizen trying to think for himself? — Fire Ologist
Glenn Loury is quite an inspiring person, as he earlier in his life had fumbled up, had gone to prison, yet then did make an academic career and ended up as an professor of economics. — ssu
Actually the US needs these kind of academics who engage in public discourse. — ssu
Seems to me that that I’m not hitting the target because I’m using logic, and that doesn’t seem to register. — Fire Ologist
So the more renown trans activists are uncompromising and reject the woke principle of allyship. — praxis
Are you high? — praxis
The points need to be set up to land first. — DingoJones
I guess Im less interested in whose right or wrong and more interested in the two sides actually communicating. — DingoJones
The Regressive Agenda
1. Fuck white people. White people are racists.
2. Fuck America. Blame America and its military for every problem on earth. (mention Iraq
3. Defend the Muslims. Create a false equivalence with Christianity and muddy the waters.
4. Fuck the cops
5. Fuck conservatives and Republicans
6. Save the blacks. Treat black people as if they are helpless infants who lack agency and can be nothing but victims.
7. Disregard linear time. Blur the past with the present so as to demonize modern people for the actions of those from the distant past.
8. Mention that it's not all. Assert that they are saying it's 'all', then tell them it's not all.
Then eject.
9. It someone brings up a problem, pivot to talking about a non-problem.
10. It someone presents a problem to you, mention another problem because two wrongs make a who cares.
11. Virtue signal whenever conceivably possible.
How is the world supposed to know how awesome you are unless you announce it to them repeatedly?
12. Fight against bullies. If there are none, pretend that there are. This will help you process your resentment towards all those mean kids who bullied you. Fight for the Ewoks, not the stormtroopers. — DingoJones
It is inarguable to closed minds only. — praxis
He was a culture war grifter and deliberatly cultivated social conflict for profit. — praxis
And of course you're persuaded by logical fallacies. — praxis
I am not "charging you" with anything. I am pointing out that your own cite said there are more than two genotypes for this gene, and you think just asserting that there isn't is a refutation. — Mijin
The only reason that we're discussing sex is because of the context of the gender discussion; your position seems to require asserting that the underlying sex is binary, and you're failing to find support for that assertion — Mijin
Cite please: an actual biologist, not your misreading of what chat gpt told you. — Mijin
The notion of allyship, offered to address this problem (which you now seem to recognize is still a problem), is one way to go. — Fire Ologist
Biological essentialism cannot be integrated into woke ideology. Feminists think there is something specific and persistent about the biological female that relates to the category of woman. Trans can’t think that. So the two identity types cannot agree on what gender must involve and what gender need not involve. — Fire Ologist
But my point in raising this is that woke ideology affords no means to satisfy what feminists call unjust oppression while at the same time satisfying what trans call unjust oppression. — Fire Ologist
My point is, it is the nature of woke to be unable to develop a coherent and just resolution of the conflict between internally warring identity groups. (Just like it is unable to fathom the concept of a white male employed middle class person being victim of a racist black woman.) — Fire Ologist
“Systemic Power Analysis”, “Identity as Moral and Epistemic Category” and “Language Shapes Reality” - these properties or aspects of woke breed the type of conflict that woke cannot resolve between its own identity groups. — Fire Ologist
So it seems to me here that, if you wanted to be open and honest, the quote just above means that, to some degree, you see what I am saying, or at least agree with it’s factual basis. You agree that there is no allyship of Trans people with anyone who doesn’t agree with what they say, (like traditional feminists don’t agree). — Fire Ologist
This is supported by nothing and could only make sense to someone who has only engaged with Charlie through a lens of left-wing, hateful rhetoric. — AmadeusD
Sorry! — Jeremy Murray
government, representing all citizens, needs to be held to a higher standard. — Jeremy Murray
I am the one hammering on here, not you, and not out of sense of rightness or anything. More a despairing kind of hammering. — Jeremy Murray
Plenty of journalists / comedians / etc. are saying things that people disagree with now, but which are things that people were fine with even a few years ago. This is the problem to me. — Jeremy Murray
in 1992 in my psych 100 text with affirmative action. Recipients were likely to doubt themselves in the context of affirmative action. — Jeremy Murray
It is that forced binary choice on moral issues that I think is fueling the worst of the culture wars. — Jeremy Murray
missing in this discussion is the existence of these new public spaces - social media, amplified by the smart phone - that older norms are not equipped to handle.
Of course, objectively, these are 'public' spaces. But they were not conceived as such in the way they have become. Anyone can say one thing in the wrong way, on the wrong day, and have their life changed - even ruined - forever. This has a fear-generating effect, which in part explains the rise of woke. (Too big a topic to cover here, but this is Richard Hanania's argument for why corporations went woke - risk aversion).
I don't even know where to start with this topic. Screen-based existence if altering our lives more profoundly than any technology since, uhh, fire? Nobody was carrying printing-presses around in their pocket in Gutenberg's day.
And the moral systems that dominate - liberal era utilitarianism and deontology - are not flexible or fast enough to process our new world. — Jeremy Murray
I do think it is pragmatic to consider more than just legal obligations between employer and employee. And that, ultimately, some of those fired should have been fired, and some should not have. — Jeremy Murray
The power of free speech is in the simplicity of it. Once you start qualifying it - no hate? what's hate? whose hate definition? Incitement? — Jeremy Murray
Does choosing a 'side' not mean compromising your beliefs on specific issues? — Jeremy Murray
When did I not recognize it as a problem? — praxis
So the more renown trans activists are uncompromising and reject the woke principle of allyship. — praxis
Contrary to what you may believe, wokeism is not...a social movement, lacking organized leadership, structure, or unified goals. — praxis
the tenants of wokeism which are:
Social Justice as Central Moral Priority
Systemic Power Analysis
Identity as Moral and Epistemic Category
Language Shapes Reality
Moral Urgency and Activism
Intersectionality
Historical Accountability — praxis
That’s how I hold a discussion, how I debate.
But then we have to elect leaders. Then we have to pick a platform (pick a team) and play fair to make a final selection of elected official. — Fire Ologist
Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. The government won't work without it. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them. — Barry Goldwater (1994)
You are all over the place and don’t explain yourself very carefully. Your judgment of what I am trying to say keeps coming out of nowhere to me. — Fire Ologist
There still seems to be no reason for you to avoid agreeing with the basic fact that trans and feminist ideology are both aligned, and in conflict. — Fire Ologist
I agree that some trans activists, such as Judith Butler, refuse to compromise with the proposals put forward by material feminists like Stock.
I say there are many other examples within wokeness of these irreconcilable identities. — Fire Ologist
And if you admit this problem is there for trans and feminists, then we might be making some sort of connection. But you don’t want to build any bridge. — Fire Ologist
She explicitly rejects biological essentialism. — praxis
For a few years in grade school I was a racial minority and experienced racism – physical attacks – for merely being a blonde haired, blue eyed, middle class white kid, though I was unemployed at the time. If I were woke at that time I wouldn't have experienced racism, what? — praxis
wokeism is not a religion with sacred tenets carved in stone by the woke Goddess. It's not even a social movement, lacking organized leadership, structure, or unified goals — praxis
What is hateful about recognizing that Kirk was heavily invested in the culture war? — praxis
But as far as I can tell, my assessment of the above would only push people further away from actually hearing what I think. It would cause an emotional frenzy. — Fire Ologist
You might as well, it doesnt look like your going to make any headway with Praxis. — DingoJones
Wrong. This isn’t government impinging on speech. It’s government saying you can say whatever the hell you want, but that they won’t pay for it anymore. And I’m fine if the government decides not to give money to any college.
Got it yet? — Fire Ologist
Sorry man, I still don't. I included five links that are contrary to your generalization, two articles from John Turley who wrote this exhaustive review of free speech and rage politics in the US in 2024.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/199897939-the-indispensable-right
My links aren't long - why not consider them? — Jeremy Murray
And I have explained to you why, in detail: translocation is not a genotype. I even gave you room to say that this is not what you mean. You have not. I presume it is what you mean. Translocation is not a third genotype.
There are not three genotypes for SRY. There are not three genotypes for SRY. There are not three genotypes for SRY — AmadeusD
I've provided air-tight support for [SRY being the (binary) determinator of sex]. — AmadeusD
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