• Samlw
    64
    Hello Everyone,

    I have been on this platform for nearly a year on and off, (Having to take a break from the endless essays) and have discussed matters that I find interesting. Mostly, because I am genuinely curious on how the other side thinks, but partially because I find divisive topics such as abortion, free speech and immigration entertaining as it creates hot debates with strong opinions both sides.

    Today I want to talk about a subject that is likely to join the ranks of division. Gun Control.

    I would like to address the mindset of people joining into this. I find that people are so entrenched in their views already that they refuse to listen to the other side. They will say anything just to get a point in the debate rather then actually listening, you are not a loser for conceding to an argument, it is ok to change your mind. (I understand that I am most likely speaking to a brick wall, I thought I would start this off in the most positive way possible). It becomes laborious, pointless and boring when people refuse to see sense and the conversation devolves into repeating the same point in different ways.

    Firstly, I will reveal that I am from England so my point of view is likely to be different due to the difference in our experiences / societal norms we are all used to in our own nations. Guns are HEAVILY restricted in the UK, and this is the main reason why England and wales have been consistent averaging 28 fatalities a year which is 0.04 / 100,000 people. USA on the other hand reportedly produces 13.7 deaths per 100,000 people.

    I am not simplifying the argument by saying that the only reason of the frankly disgusting increase of deaths is due to the fact that my government heavily restricts guns while America doesn't, I understand that there are many attributing factors. People can point to culture, poverty, mental health, drugs, crime and communities as to why gun crime is so high. Although these are all important subjects in their own right, I think that these factors are only multiplied by the route cause, lack of gun control.

    I will start off with a couple pro's I see for less gun control.

    National Security:
    I think an often overlooked pro to everyone owning guns is national security. If a country were to attempt to invade America it would be almost impossible due to such a heavily armed population. Every small village would stand as bastion against the invading force, obviously in this modern landscape nukes are a bigger threat to America then a ground invasion by armed soldiers but nevertheless, it also protects the civilian population from a tyrannical government / civilian uprisings if they were to occur. It is important to note that this is more theoretical then evidenced.

    Individual Security
    Fairly obvious, if everyone has a gun why shouldn't you? Granted I wouldn't say this is necessarily a pro, more of a necessity due to the lack of gun control. Either way, it would be hard to impalement gun laws because of this.

    There will be more pros but these two are the most important in my eyes. Self defence, individual liberty and deterrence of tyranny.

    I don't think there is any reason for me to list any of the cons I see with the lack of gun control in America as I would rather hear peoples stances and then challenge them. I will clearly outline my view:

    In an ideal world, I believe that guns should not be accessible to a civilian population that doesn't need them, they should be accessible to military personnel, hunters and top level security. Anyone working a normal job that doesn't explicitly require to kill or protect should not need to access them. I will also point out that just because you are protecting, doesn't mean you need a gun i.e. nightclub bouncer, supermarket security, school teachers etc.

    America is WAY too far gone to save. If you ban the purchase of firearms, there are already 400+ million in the country. If you vastly improve licensing standards, there are already 400+ million firearms in the country. If you implement new technology on the guns that will restrict use.... you get the point. Unfortunately, I believe that any measures that would be put in place now would be a drop in the ocean, have no real affect on the issue and only increase tensions and fatalities.

    But this is not an excuse to not try. Due to the sheer size of the issue, we would need to look at how we want the world to look like for our grandkids and further generations and start implementing regulations that would gradually pull us up to a securer world. Here is some ideas as to how I may improve the issue: (PLEASE NOTE I AM OVERSIMPLIFYING.)

    1) Roll out a more extensive licencing process. Extra focus on mental health, include tests that reveal ability for critical thinking and intelligence, focus on backgrounds (if there is historical records of extensive gun violence charges in their family they must be put even more under the microscope). Set a time limit such as 3-4 years to be completed. If failed or not completed, they should not be able posses a fire arm.

    2)Weapons amnesty - allow anyone to turn in their firearms and be rewarded financially. I wouldn't expect many people to do so but it would definitely remove a fair amount of guns off the streets. This will also help the people who failed the new licensing process as they at least get money back for their gun.

    3)Increase the penalty for owning a gun when you are not supposed to, to deter more people.

    4) Roll out fingerprint technology on newly manufactured guns so that only the registered owner can shoot the weapon, this will also help with identifying perpetrators that commit gun crimes.

    I am not saying this will get the number to 0 deaths, but it will definitely decrease overtime if these are implemented. It is a marathon not a sprint.

    Whether you are majorly pro guns or majorly against guns, everyone should be able to agree that something needs to change and that it has got out of hand.

    I haven't even mentioned the second amendment, I am sure it will be brought up, and I am interested in what people think about this. Do I have good intentions, or do I just like being told what to do by the government?
  • MoK
    1.8k

    I don't see any rationale behind making weapons with which you can kill humans.
  • Outlander
    2.6k
    I don't see any rationale behind making weapons with which you can kill humans.MoK

    Because you have everything you need thanks to those who did it for you. Are you going to give up your home, knowledge, and basically everything you have that isn't found in a moist, damp and rotting cave? No, you're not. So you live as a result of weapons that were made to kill. Surely you can understand this?

    We like to discard that which we no longer find use or favor toward, provided we keep all it created for us. This is the definition of hypocrisy. In addition, I envy your lack of intimacy and experience with human depravity. More proof of that which weapons have accomplished.

    --

    EDIT: Generally speaking, as far the OP. Sure, firearms take less effort and thought to take a life (or several, including one's own) than a knife, or rock, or sharpened stick. So the "easiness" factor is a big thing that does result in increased violence that wouldn't be found in a world with only traditional and primitive weapons, that is a highly relevant factor to consider. Someone who is clearly exhibiting homicidal tendencies, even suicidal (wanting to "end it all", which is fairly tied to anger and hatred of the world and people around them, not always but often enough to mention the connection), etc. should probably not be able to casually go into market and pick up a weapon that can kill 50 people in under 30 seconds with the same ease as buying a cart of groceries. That much is fairly agreeable and logical. But since when has logic really ever mattered for very long in the face of existential desire?

    You can kill multiple innocent people with a vehicle, with a common knife or even pairing knife, even your own hands if you're large enough. Which again creates a size discrepancy as far as who is equal and who isn't. (See the pro-gun quote: "God made men, Samuel Colt made them equal. It does have a point.)

    Moreover the argument that resonates with even people who don't "like" or even own firearms is that due to chaotic nature of human nature and tendency for war as welll as possibility for social instability or even collapse, it's a necessity and major deterrent for those who seek to harm, be it simply an individual seeking violence for violence sake or perhaps resource, or a larger group doing so for political and territorial means (an invading army, for example).

    You can't outlaw immorality, or rather, free will. At least, not for very long. If a man wants to kill another man or woman, they will find a way. They always do.
  • MrLiminal
    137
    I think gun control, like many modern causes, uses good intentions to mask bad ideas.
  • MoK
    1.8k

    What you get from weapons with which you can kill humans results in human corpses, which we then cry over, and the destruction of what we built, which means burning wealth. To me, it is absurd to use the wealth to burn the wealth! Or do you see any logic behind this that I am not aware of?
  • Outlander
    2.6k
    What you get from weapons with which you can kill humansMoK

    A human being never killed another human being before there were firearms? Remember this is about firearms, not weapons. A rock is a weapon, if used as such. So is a branch. Even a piece of cloth or rope. This is not about weapons nor are we having a "is a knife a culinary tool or a weapon" debate. Anything can be a weapon. Including your body. This is about firearms and the government's role in restricting their open and easy access, if there is one and nothing more.

    But yes, as an aside. Everything you have is because of what was taken with weapons. Including your knowledge and as a result your fundamental identity. It all goes back to those before you who did what they did that resulted in the actions and circumstances that allowed you to not just only be born, but born in the favorable circumstances you enjoy now, circumstances that I would not be surprised are taken for granted. You can't just casually without any hypocrisy say "oh this is bad because I don't like it, but I'll continue to live and take from everything it provided." It's just not a sound argument. Sure, you have an opinion and that's great. But it doesn't really follow as far as logic is concerned.

    EDIT: Sure, there is the classic saying that was first attributed to swords, that saying being "This is a tool whose only purpose is to take life". Now that could be justified to hunting game or of course self-defense in one's home. Do you not believe that persons, perhaps smaller or handicapped have an equal right to defend themselves in one's home? Gotcha. :wink:
  • MoK
    1.8k

    Long past is gone! Are you saying that we cannot get rid of this habit, you are my enemy at all?
  • Red Sky
    48
    In an ideal world, I believe that guns should not be accessible to a civilian population that doesn't need them, they should be accessible to military personnel, hunters and top level security.Samlw
    I would agree with this, except that there is no such thing as an achievable perfect world. Technology is one thing we cannot take back after it is created.
    I do agree with almost everything on this thread though.
    However my view is slightly different.
    It was already mentioned that guns are a weapon against tyranny and that is one of the most important reasons for pro guns.
    However another big thing is the equalizer. A person without a gun can almost never stand up to a person with one. However even a more skilled person with a gun can still be taken down by an amateur with one. It brings most humans to around the same level.
    Of course the amount of gun related deaths in america is frightening, but a lot are also committed by people who get guns illegally. If we get rid of all guns in civilian hands it would only be in the government and criminals'.
    You might rebuke that we could also crack down tightly on illegal guns, but that is not foolproof. (Which right now sounds like a lame argument to me)
    But in an imaginary scenario which assailant would be taken down first. The one with no police officer or one with.
    The answer is easily the later, why?, because they have a gun. But what if more people than police officers had that power?
    (Just realized I probably explained a lot i didn't need to)
    But fun fact, america has tried some amnesty's for guns as well as just straight confiscation, I don't have any real evidence to work on, but I don't think it worked.
  • Michael
    16.4k
    I don't see any rationale behind making weapons with which you can kill humans.MoK

    Hunting and defence.
  • MrLiminal
    137


    To further add to your point, dynamite is really good at killing humans, but no one wants to outlaw that.
  • Michael
    16.4k
    To further add to your point, dynamite is really good at killing humans, but no one wants to outlaw that.MrLiminal

    He did specifically refer to weapons and not just deadly tools is general, which would cover most things as we’re quite squishy.

    I could kill you with a pencil.
  • AmadeusD
    3.6k
    As long as women exists, guns will have a (in my opinion) virtuous purpose. As long as stronger, less-scrupulous people exist (relative to the bulk of people) guns will have a virtuous purpose.

    I live in a country with next-to-no gun violence. It works because it's small, generally close-knit, and sparsely populated. But the gangs who do run with guns are such a ridiculous threat to others that It seems clear keeping guns from those who must protect themselves from violent criminals may not be the best move. Luckily, we're early enough in our journey to this type of violence that we can still curtail the illegal gun use currently, so I don't see that manifesting, just noting it works here because its small.

    Somewhere like the US, it is incumbent on a family with children or anyone vulnerable counted among, to protect their own. Education, responsible use and decent training are needed in pretty much a social overhaul that, as OP says, is probably a pipe-dream. The gun violence among urban populations is astounding, and not something legislation is going to deal with. Obviously.

    I think gun control, like many modern causes, uses good intentions to mask bad ideas.MrLiminal

    Bingo.
  • T Clark
    15.2k
    I am interested in what people think about this.Samlw

    Some thoughts.

    It annoys me you feel the need to step into this. As you note, it's a problem in the US, but not in most of Europe. Why do you feel the need to tell us how we should act. I don't get it.

    I grew up with guns, mostly shotguns for hunting and a bit of target shooting with BB guns and rifles. I'm comfortable around them and people who use them. I have no particular problem with gun control within limits and I know conservative gun owners who feel the same way. The obsession of some liberals with gun control has forced many gun ownership supporters to more strident resistance to any gun control.

    You put off discussion of the Second Amendment so I'll take it up. The first ten amendments to the U.S. Constitution were added to the text before it was originally approved by the states. They are known as the Bill of Rights. The one that matters the most to me is the First -

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. — First Amendment

    For some people, the Second is the most fundamental.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed. — Second Amendment

    Part of their reason is that without access to firearms, none of the other rights can be guaranteed. I have some sympathy with that understanding. There have been all sorts of arguments about what that means, but the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled it applies to individual US citizens. Like it or not, that's the way it is.

    Here's my main reason for my lukewarm support for gun control. The Democratic Party, of which I am a member, and liberals in general have put gun control hear the top of their political priority list. That has cost them dearly with the more conservative, Southern, rural, and male population. It has also drawn energy away from what I consider more important issues - things that will make for better lives for people in general and working class and poor people in particular. Examples include health care, taxation, education, jobs, and economic fairness. It has hurt the party badly, has very few positive results, and is unlikely to have positive results any time soon. Right now, support for strong gun control is just a feel-good, symbolic, self-destructive fantasy. Time to move it way down the list.
  • Samlw
    64
    It annoys me you feel the need to step into this. As you note, it's a problem in the US, but not in most of Europe. Why do you feel the need to tell us how we should act. I don't get it.T Clark

    I will reply to the latter tomorrow morning. I would just like to quickly pick this weird comment up. This is a forum for discussion in many arenas, I pay a lot of attention to US politics, even more than my country. When I am at work I am always listening to a debate which is 80% of the time based on US politics.

    This is the topic I would like to talk about, if you don’t like that, you can move on with your day rather than engaging with it. This just seems like an attempt to instantly discredit anything anyone has to say on the matter simply because we do not have bodies piled up from an issue most in Europe seem to have a grip on, maybe you should pay attention.
  • T Clark
    15.2k
    This is the topic I would like to talk about,Samlw

    You are welcome to talk about it. I wasn't suggesting your thread not be allowed. It would just make more sense if you would discuss troubles in your own country or in the world in general rather than pontificating about subjects where you have no credibility and where your opinion doesn't matter, no matter how self-satisfied it makes you feel.
  • Down The Rabbit Hole
    568


    Firstly, I will reveal that I am from England so my point of view is likely to be different due to the difference in our experiences / societal norms we are all used to in our own nations. Guns are HEAVILY restricted in the UK, and this is the main reason why England and wales have been consistent averaging 28 fatalities a year which is 0.04 / 100,000 people. USA on the other hand reportedly produces 13.7 deaths per 100,000 people.Samlw

    Your numbers are for firearm deaths. A country where guns are allowed is bound to have a higher firearm death rate than a country where they are not allowed. This doesn't mean guns cause more deaths.

    The murder rate in the US is about 6 times than in our green and pleasant land of the United Kingdom
    (~6.3 per 100k versus ~0.99 per 100k). The United States has manifestly got a lot of problems, making the case for prohibiting firearms stronger.
  • Sir2u
    3.5k
    Whether you are majorly pro guns or majorly against guns, everyone should be able to agree that something needs to change and that it has got out of hand.Samlw

    Yes it has gotten out of hand and something needs to change, but what and how are the million dollar questions.

    In 2022, the United States experienced more than 48,000 firearm-related deaths, nearly 108,000 drug-related deaths, and over 51,000 alcohol-induced deaths.
    https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/report-examines-impact-of-alcohol-drug-and-firearm-deaths-on-life-expectancy-in-the-us/

    Tighter laws against drugs and millions of dollars spent does not seem to be working very well, will stricter laws against guns function any better?

    And even though the situation is not as bad in other parts of the world, other problems do exist. Machete fights in London being one of them.
  • AmadeusD
    3.6k
    pontificating about subjects where you have no credibility and where your opinion doesn't matter, no matter how self-satisfied it makes you feel.T Clark

    Wow. Dude, what the fuck side of hte bed did you wake up on.
  • T Clark
    15.2k
    Wow. Dude, what the fuck side of hte bed did you wake up on.AmadeusD

    Now I have to say something mean to you too. How about this…

    Fucking Kiwis
  • T Clark
    15.2k
    Wow. Dude, what the fuck side of hte bed did you wake up on.AmadeusD

    Oops! Sorry. How about this instead? Flight of the Conchords is not funny.
  • AmadeusD
    3.6k
    LMAO. Ooof. Luckily I'm Irish. But i did find the FOTC pretty funny. Banana balls is still one of the funniest insults i've heard.
  • T Clark
    15.2k
    But i did find the FOTC pretty funny.AmadeusD

    Ok, OK. I did too.
  • Michael
    16.4k
    Why do you feel the need to tell us how we should act.T Clark

    That’s what normative ethics is? Should we not criticise the Russian invasion of Ukraine or the criminalisation of homosexual relationships in Brunei?
  • Leontiskos
    5.1k
    Those who want "gun control" are simply saying that guns should be restricted to a certain set of people. That is, they favor a monopoly of coercion. What is a monopoly of coercion? It is, by definition, a tyranny. So those who favor gun control favor tyranny.

    Else, if by "gun control" someone wants to limit the kind of firearms, then the issue is a bit more complicated.

    There is a counterfactual question that is different. It is, "If I could push a button that erased all guns from existence, should I?" Or else it is the question of the people who invented guns, "Should we invent guns or not?" Those are interesting questions, but they are also completely moot given that we cannot turn back the clock on the invention of guns (and, similarly, nuclear weapons). It is equivocation to pretend that this question is the same as the question of restricting guns to a certain set of people.

    In an ideal world, I believe that guns should not be accessible to a civilian population that doesn't need them, they should be accessible to military personnel, hunters and top level security.Samlw

    Ergo: you favor a monopoly of coercion (tyranny). You want to place the power of guns into the hands of one set of people, and exclude all other people. Specifically, you want the government to possess the coercive and lethal force of guns and no one else.
  • NOS4A2
    10k


    It may be effective to ban weaponry, but is it unjust? I believe so. It's a brute fact that not every gun owner is a potential murderer, and not everyone is going to shoot someone if they happen to legally own a gun. Yet, the innocent are prohibited from owning guns.

    But here is an argument.

    • The right of self-defense is an important right.
    • A firearms prohibition would be a significant violation of the right of self-defense.
    • Therefore, a firearms prohibition would be a serious rights-violation.

    I agree with the premises and conclusion. Though it may be effective to prohibit guns, it's a rights violation, and those that prohibit guns are violators of rights. This is dangerous. I mean, the UK police will knock on your door for social media posts. There is no way to reverse course on that road to serfdom, as the tyrants posses all the guns.
  • Michael
    16.4k
    Specifically, you want the government to possess the coercive and lethal force of guns and no one else.Leontiskos

    The government has a lot more than guns at their disposable, so this seems to be a moot point unless you think every Tom, Dick, and Harry should be allowed cruise missiles and Challenger II tanks.
  • T Clark
    15.2k
    That’s what normative ethics is? Should we not criticise the Russian invasion of Ukraine or the criminalisation of homosexual relationships yes please thank you in Brunei?Michael

    If there’s nothing you can do about it and you’re not affected or responsible, shooting your mouth off is just a way to make you feel good about yourself.
  • Michael
    16.4k
    If there’s nothing you can do about it and you’re not affected or responsible, shooting your mouth off is just a way to make you feel good about yourself.T Clark

    Noted.

    The USA should introduce stricter gun control. I suspect that it will save many lives. The benefits outweigh the cost.
  • RogueAI
    3.3k
    Those who want "gun control" are simply saying that guns should be restricted to a certain set of people. That is, they favor a monopoly of coercion. What is a monopoly of coercion? It is, by definition, a tyranny. So those who favor gun control favor tyranny.Leontiskos

    Substitute guns with "nuclear weapons". Are you really trying to say that people who favor nuclear weapon control favor tyranny?
  • Lael
    2
    Hi! Thank you for your post. I think an important question to ask: Is all life sacred?

    Currently in the United States there is no legislation that supports or contributes directly to the issues surrounding gun ownership.

    I will attempt to address some of your points:

    “No one deserves access other than military personnel… etc”

    Gun ownership empowers self reliance, particularly amongst vulnerable populations. I would counter that point by stating self reliance is for everyone. Also, military and LEO firearm qualifications are mediocre at best. To say “civilized” populations should have limited access is to neglect the atrocities people face. In my opinion, this is an extremely privileged point of view. Although, there is a beauty in being naive about the realities of the world; this is not truth. Also, what is “civilized?” I prefer not viewing my own body and mind as secondary. Why depend on someone else when I have a brain in my head, breath in my lungs, and a heart that beats that allows me to be my own first responder?

    The fingerprint on firearms (sorry I am not continually scrolling up to see the exact wording, I’m new here :)):

    Serial codes can and are manipulated, so can fingerprint technology. My concern would be relying on it in an imminent situation and it not being as affective during withdrawal to use. I have considered this point in the past and was made aware of how finicky the system would be. This is enough for me to say it’s unreliable.

    Buyback programs:

    We have attempted these but the reward was gross. Also they considered every “firearm” and handed out $50 gift cards in return. A person turned in, what I would call, a Boomstick 1776. In order for this to be enticing the reward has to meet the cost of the firearm or more. The interest isn’t there and it makes sense why.

    Mental health with firearms:

    Just because someone is “mentally ill” doesn’t necessarily negate their right to self defense. I agree it is multi faceted. Who determines the mental fitness of a buyer and what would that process entail in a shop? Currently, the NICS4473 is set to ensure the buyer is justified in doing so. How can we measure the change of someones psyche after purchasing? Red flag laws are at the jurisdiction of the FBI, despite numerous calls, their action isn’t swift. What does this process look like as a whole?

    I’m a certified self defense instructor and advocate for women’s rights, particularly. I have concealed carried for 7 years now. I also teach the laws of self defense in my state. I am a member of GOA and Women For Gun Rights Movements. I have limited time currently to keep expanding (and the format on my phone isn’t ideal) on this topic but if you’d like to engage further I’d be open and willing to that! Thank you for the post and allowing me to engage.
  • Lael
    2


    I once saw a man kill 3 men in a bar with a pencil …
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