There is no Law of Nature that provides a basis on which a determination about good or evil could be made. It is, therefore, determined simply by Rules of Man. — Pieter R van Wyk

But you say this apart from understanding what a law of nature is. I can call, say, gravity a "law" of nature, yet there is an analytic of gravity in physics that won't quit. So much for it being a law. All such laws bear the same scrutiny, their presuppositional ground being altogether ignored. Further, what is there about moral good and evil that would even suggest nature would provide an account as to what they are? There is nothing "natural" about this, nothing natural, yet unmistakable in its being in the comparison between states of affairs in the usual sense, facts of the world, and the moral problematic. What makes being thrown into one of Stalin's gulags a moral issue in its very possibility? This is the question. This ground of morality is not a fiction or an interpretation of "what to do" in a moral entanglement. It is PRIOR to the "rules of man" as you call it.

My sincere apology, I should have stated, categorically, what I mean with a Law of Nature. It is actually not that difficult:

Law (of nature):= If the sum of mass, energy, and information is conserved over space-time for (more than one) pairs of interacting components; all the interactions that exist between these components can be described by a unique, specific law, a law of nature. The collection of all these laws then comprise the Laws of Nature. How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence

You are quite correct that nature does not provide an answer to what is morally good or evil. That is all determined by political expedience. And that, is exactly my point!

Law (of nature):= If the sum of mass, energy, and information is conserved over space-time for (more than one) pairs of interacting components; all the interactions that exist between these components can be described by a unique, specific law, a law of nature. The collection of all these laws then comprise the Laws of Nature. How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence — Pieter R van Wyk

Would that be a law that abides independently of the act that conceives it?

You are quite correct that nature does not provide an answer to what is morally good or evil. That is all determined by political expedience. And that, is exactly my point! — Pieter R van Wyk

Political experience, or what includes this but is more inclusive and basic, social experience, determines the historical possibility for morality to appear as it does. Our ethics is derivative, and as it is taken up in novel ways, it establishes precedent for future legal narratives. But talk about the dynamics of moral evolvement doe snot address the issue of the nature of morality; it merely says ideas come and go, ignoring the question of ground, what makes something moral AT ALL.

Would that be a law that abides independently of the act that conceives it? — Constance

It is the law that describes the act; if it is a law of nature, it describes exactly that - a law of nature, describing an act of nature. If it is a Rule of Man, it is determined by the politics we conduct amongst ourselves. The conception (that which conceives it) is determined by evolution. Or emergence, if you prefer this word.

what makes something moral AT ALL. — Constance

It is the politics we play, the Rules of Man that we contemplate, decide upon, accept, ignore, change, circumvent, ... that determine what is moral; for who, and when.

By the way - this provides a fundamental solution to the Demarcation Problem. How I Understand Things. The Logic of Understanding

It is the law that describes the act; if it is a law of nature, it describes exactly that - a law of nature, describing an act of nature. If it is a Rule of Man, it is determined by the politics we conduct amongst ourselves. The conception (that which conceives it) is determined by evolution. Or emergence, if you prefer this word. — Pieter R van Wyk

But if something is called a law of nature, it is generally assumed that the law issues from observation of natural events, making physics the rigorous expression of what nature is and does. The assumption here is that observation yields the natural world in the first place such that it can serve as a ground for things observed, but this assumption doesn't ask the more basic question regarding how observation can do this. The question then is, how can observation be "about" its object given that aboutness is an epistemic requirement? What is there in an observation that makes the basic connection for this?

It is the politics we play, the Rules of Man that we contemplate, decide upon, accept, ignore, change, circumvent, ... that determine what is moral; for who, and when.

By the way - this provides a fundamental solution to the Demarcation Problem. How I Understand Things. The Logic of Understanding — Pieter R van Wyk

But is the nature of ethics itself simply a matter of rules? In science, there are rules, principles, but the "aboutness" of these rules has its content in the essential givenness of a world, the regularities of appearance and behavior, and when we look to what this is, we find essential content in the hardness of a rock or mineral or the spectral analysis of a star's light and the like. Are you saying that ethics has nothing of this essential content that constitutes its "aboutness"? Nothing that grounds ethics apart from rule making?

Is the logic of understanding: not clear on this, for accepting, ignoring, and the rest apply to reasoned arguments about the natural world as well as ethics. One does not stand before the rigors of science as if one were only to receive and obey; rather, one stands amidst standards of acceptance that are in play.

Please consider: :"The only thing we have is a perception of things, albeit physical, abstract or imaginary things. Through perception, we gain information, glean knowledge, construct abstract things and conjure imaginary things - even play politics."

If you want to speak of aboutness or giveness, you should provide a concise description of your perception of the meaning of these words. (The aboutness of aboutness :nerd: )

But if something is called a law of nature, it is generally assumed that the law issues from observation of natural events, making physics the rigorous expression of what nature is and does — Constance

I am not assuming anything, I have given you, precisely, my perception of a "Law of Nature". If you do not agree with my definition you are welcome to give me your definition. Then we can discuss these definitions and perhaps glean some knowledge.

But is the nature of ethics itself simply a matter of rules? — Constance

Yes, the Rules of Man.

Are you saying that ethics has nothing of this essential content that constitutes its "aboutness"? Nothing that grounds ethics apart from rule making? — Constance

Yes, that is what I am saying. "The Laws of Nature have no morality, no honour nor any legal standing." Also, "Any decision on what is good and what is evil is made based on whatever is politically expedient ... It is therefore, determined simply by Rules of Man."

All my quotes from: How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence

Please tell me, by whom or by what authority can a decision be made that something is good and something else is evil? A scientist, a politician, perhaps a religious leader ... perhaps a philosopher?

Please consider: :"The only thing we have is a perception of things, albeit physical, abstract or imaginary things. Through perception, we gain information, glean knowledge, construct abstract things and conjure imaginary things - even play politics."

If you want to speak of aboutness or giveness, you should provide a concise description of your perception of the meaning of these words. (The aboutness of aboutness :nerd: ) — Pieter R van Wyk

One can ignore the conditions of observation as conditions, as constitutive conditions, and empirical science routinely does this, and the claim here is certainly not that science gets it all wrong because it does not responsibly look at this constitutive ground; it simply means that science is not interested in philosophy. Philosophy attempts to understand matters at the most basic level of assumptions and questions, and it cannot ignore this. As to aboutness: calling this on my desk a pen is to claim a relation between the utterance, the thought, the apprehension here, and "that over there". This relation is the perceptual act and the analysis of this act is what I would call an analysis of simple and essential epistemic distance, and again, science and everyday affairs assumes this to be without issue, and aboutness never becones a theme of discussion. But make the move to understand this relation explicitly, and serious issues emerge instantly.

I am not assuming anything, I have given you, precisely, my perception of a "Law of Nature". If you do not agree with my definition you are welcome to give me your definition. Then we can discuss these definitions and perhaps glean some knowledge. — Pieter R van Wyk

Well, this "law of nature" is an assumption, as is whatever I say is the case. I think a law of nature is first a law, and a law is a rational generality, more or less rigorously conceived. There are no laws in that tree over there, if the standard of naturalism is used to understand it. "Laws of nature" is a loose way to refer to things in the world, and we all talk this way in casual familiarity; more accurately, laws are what we contribute to the event of acknowledging the tree, the planet, star, or what have you.

Yes, the Rules of Man. — Pieter R van Wyk

I don't doubt that there are such rules, but I do say that demarcation problem is not going to be resolved by demarcating a difference in the laws of nature and ethics. Nature's content is reduced to natural laws, while ethics' content is reducible to ethical laws, loosely speaking. Or do I miss your meaning here?

Yes, that is what I am saying. "The Laws of Nature have no morality, no honour nor any legal standing." Also, "Any decision on what is good and what is evil is made based on whatever is politically expedient ... It is therefore, determined simply by Rules of Man." — Pieter R van Wyk

By definition the laws of nature have no morality, for what is moral is not a phenomenon found in nature. Of course, calling these natural laws at all presents a question, for per the above, there are no laws IN nature, unless, that is, nature and reason can be conceived as a unity, which is my view. The interesting question arises: if nature's "laws" are the work of the way we take up nature and deal with it, what is it that morality deals with such that its laws have meaning at all? Certainly not clouds and planetary systems, but good and evil: what are these as such?

Please tell me, by whom or by what authority can a decision be made that something is good and something else is evil? A scientist, a politician, perhaps a religious leader ... perhaps a philosopher? — Pieter R van Wyk

Of course, take a flame and hold it under your hand for a moment. Now you know the prima facie injunction against doing this to yourself or anyone else.

One of the things I find peculiar about some people (some philosophers) is my perception that they throw words around like a 'rich man', nickels and dimes:

"... conditions, observations, constitutive, empirical, responsible, understanding, assuming, aboutness (a new one for me), relation, perceptual, analytical, thoughtful, apprehensive, simple, essential, explicit, emerging, definitive, phenomenal, conceived, interesting, reasonable, ..."

Now,

Please tell me, by whom or by what authority can a decision be made that something is good and something else is evil? A scientist, a politician, perhaps a religious leader ... perhaps a philosopher?
— Pieter R van Wyk — Constance

Please answer my question, a simple question: who or by what authority can such a decision be made?

then we could continue this conversation.

Please tell me, by whom or by what authority can a decision be made that something is good and something else is evil? A scientist, a politician, perhaps a religious leader ... perhaps a philosopher? — Pieter R van Wyk

It's a fair question. My answer would be that various intersubjective communities have their leaders who make those calls, and community members agree and follow. It might be a politician, a judge, a rabbi, the Pope, a cult leader, a teacher, or even the 'high priest' at a university philosophy department.

But I am personally not aware of a single binding decision made by anyone that something is good or evil. Both of those categories, to me, are poetic notions I generally avoid. I tend to think more in terms of beneficial or harmful deeds. But again, these are contingent categories for the most part. Although if someone asked me whether blowing up the world was beneficial or harmful, I would probably answer the former. That said, I can certainly see an argument that wiping out all life on Earth might be one way to end suffering forever. Beneficial perhaps.

My answer would be that various intersubjective communities have their leaders who make those calls, and community members agree and follow. It might be a politician, a judge, a rabbi, the Pope, a cult leader, a teacher, or even the 'high priest' at a university philosophy department. — Tom Storm

... which takes us back, exactly, to my statement: the decision is made, in general, by what is politically expedient. Thus:

"There is no Law of Nature that provides a basis on which a determination about good or evil could be made. It is, therefore, determined simply by Rules of Man." How I Understand Things. The Logic of Existence

There is no Law of Nature that provides a basis on which a determination about good or evil could be made. — Pieter R van Wyk

I came to this position when I was in my teens.

But of course this is just a perspective. There are theists who would argue differently.

the decision is made, in general, by what is politically expedient — Pieter R van Wyk

I think this is probably largely correct, although I would say that most positions on morality are related to tribal survival. A tribe/society that allows widespread theft, killing, and violence will collapse. Although, so far, America hasn’t done so… I guess we could see morality as a code of conduct, and yes, expediency is one frame to use to explain it. :wink:

But of course this is just a perspective. There are theists who would argue differently. — Tom Storm

The only thing we have is perception ...

Although, so far, America hasn’t done so… — Tom Storm

South Africa is also hanging on ... by a thin thread.

Thank you for your comment and feedback.

Did you watch the above video? I agree with everything he said in the video. Please note that I am talking about the Biblical God.

Christopher Hitchens may not have been a professional philosopher, but I don’t think that diminishes the depth or value of his insights. What I find interesting about what he says about God is not technical philosophy but moral and existential clarity.

He challenges the assumption that belief in God automatically makes a person moral, and he exposes the moral contradictions in many religious doctrines - especially those that sanctify cruelty, fear, or submission. He asks uncomfortable but necessary questions: If God is good, why does he permit suffering? If morality depends on divine command, does that make genocide or slavery good if commanded by God?

Hitchens also reminds us that we can find meaning, awe, and compassion without invoking the supernatural. He combined reason, moral passion, and literary brilliance - showing that intellectual honesty and empathy can coexist.

So, while he wasn’t a technical philosopher, he was a moral and cultural critic who made philosophy accessible and urgent - which, to me, is just as important.

"... conditions, observations, constitutive, empirical, responsible, understanding, assuming, aboutness (a new one for me), relation, perceptual, analytical, thoughtful, apprehensive, simple, essential, explicit, emerging, definitive, phenomenal, conceived, interesting, reasonable, ..." — Pieter R van Wyk

Errr, yes, those terms are common in philosophy. I did hazard to think that they would be okay....in a philosophy club.

Please answer my question, a simple question: who or by what authority can such a decision be made?

then we could continue this conversation. — Pieter R van Wyk

Philosophy certainly is a conversation that breaks away from normal language, the everydayness of familiar talk, but then, so is physics. You seem to think there is nothing to say that common sense can't handle, but the very nature of taking matters down to the wire, so to speak, where the most basci assumptions are brought to light, requires precisely this thematic withdrawal from easy thinking. It really does depend on the reader, the inquirer: how much do you care about these issues? How much thinking are you willing to go through?

Simply put (and I apologize for thinking in paragraphs and not simple sentences): you want to know where the authority lies to make right moral judgments, and there are those who try to give answers to this, MIll, Bentham, Kant come to mind, but really, it is a historically recurring issue. But questions like this BEG other questions. (You know what this is, right? Not to be condescending, but you did explicitly declare a distrust of concepts, and this one is front and center. To beg the question is to assume something that hasn't been made clear as to its justification in whatever is being talked about.) So before I can even make sense of "by what authority" I have to understand what is being talked about. Ethics. So what IS ethics? You see this point? I am not at all saying that ethical thinking and its social and political contexts is free of the indeterminacies of decision making, but rather, I am saying such discussion rests more on inquiry into the nature of ethics itself, and I am further saying that once one looks more closely at this ground of ethics, there IS a discoverable foundation that does stand as an authority. It is just not the kind of authority that resolves complicated practical matters. Rather, it grounds ethics, in the way that logic grounds the reason found in everyday talk. You and I may argue, say, about politics, but this openness of the issues does not deny the very firm ground in the reasonable talk itself--conditional phrases, conjunctions and negations, and so on. Here, I am saying there is also a firm ground for ethicality itself that is not offended by this openness.

So I agree with your thinking that "the rules of man" are inescapably arbitrary, but I counter that this is not a penetrating analysis as it does not even touch upon the the essential issue, which is about the nature of ethics itself. The OP asks what ethics IS. This is where my response goes. Its nature, its essence.

Did you watch the above video? I agree with everything he said in the video. Please note that I am talking about the Biblical God.

Christopher Hitchens may not have been a professional philosopher, but I don’t think that diminishes the depth or value of his insights. What I find interesting about what he says about God is not technical philosophy but moral and existential clarity.

He challenges the assumption that belief in God automatically makes a person moral, and he exposes the moral contradictions in many religious doctrines - especially those that sanctify cruelty, fear, or submission. He asks uncomfortable but necessary questions: If God is good, why does he permit suffering? If morality depends on divine command, does that make genocide or slavery good if commanded by God?

Hitchens also reminds us that we can find meaning, awe, and compassion without invoking the supernatural. He combined reason, moral passion, and literary brilliance - showing that intellectual honesty and empathy can coexist.

So, while he wasn’t a technical philosopher, he was a moral and cultural critic who made philosophy accessible and urgent - which, to me, is just as important. — Truth Seeker

Yes, and I agree with a lot he says, but it is a lot of references to science and a failed theodicy, and a position like this is simply part of a denial-fest that post modern thinking ushers in. Atheism is just as bad as theism when the conversation is reduced to this level of understanding. His is an empirical discussion, and his common sense is riddled with superficial denials, and again, I agree, but it simply bears none of the signs of serious philosophical thought. His is a popular remedy for bad thinking, filled with derogation and pithy phrasing, the kind of thing that circulates lazily through idle minds that crave cynicism. It fails utterly to look closely at the idea of God.

Take meaning, awe, and compassion without without the supernatural: well, what IS the "natural"? God is certainly not a natural concept; it is a moral concept, and so, what is ethics? Where is the boundary between the natural and the supernatural? What happens when we ask the most basic questions? Compassion refers to the self, a comportment (a way of regarding) the world that issues from our own constitution: what happens when this constitution is allowed to be free of the "science" that keeps it contained in a localized domain of "subjectivity"? Ask what an object IS, and can it be shown that one actually observes a world that stands apart from t he asking itself?

I mean, the questions that brings philosophy into its own depths are profound, literally. OTOH, I probably should give Hitchens his due, given that the great religious narrative really does need to yield to philosophy, for philosophy is the conscience of religion, keeping the question (that piety of thought!) that undoes unjustified belief alive. The religious narrative has to go; but the greatness cannot be argued away. It is IN the fabric of our existence.