I don’t know what that means. — Fire Ologist

Neither did I at first. Apparently, if we were one of the cool kids like him, we'd know it stands for: "quod vide" roughly translating to "which see." Which generally makes little to no sense but it is a pseudo-intellectual meme that basically means "look again" or basically "I already answered your question, you mindless, unwashed pleb, stop bothering me." :lol:

But you and I both know that no such tests are forthcoming and the claims are piffle. — NOS4A2

I was actually going to mention loud speech, but then, that is a physical assault has nothing to do with the content of the speech.

I’m glad you understand free political speech has to be fairly absolute. I also know you don’t understand how fraud works or libel either. But those are not really relevant in a conversation about political speech like Kirk’s and Kimmel’s.

Anyone who likes hate speech regulation doesn’t mind the government deciding what content is good and what content is bad. That’s the beginning of the end of freedom. There is a reason protecting speech is the very first amendment.

"I already answered your question, you mindless, unwashed pleb, stop bothering me." :lol: — Outlander

Thanks. Love it. Is there such a thing as Love speech?

I am always curious why he bothers with these non-responsive responses.

I think he hates me. Maybe that is why he likes hate speech regulation, because people cant be trusted not to spread hate.

In some contexts, speech is used as a form of intimidation. A very effective one at that. — Outlander

Yes for sure, and bullies need to have their ass kicked. But there is no way to regulate speech around intimidation. And some people aren’t intimidated. Some people are stronger than bullies - these types of people don’t want some weak ass politician helping them protect themselves against mean words.

The strategy and its implementation to be in line with the right to freedom of
opinion and expression. The UN supports more speech, not less, as the key means to address hate speech — Banno

That is “newspeak” for “we want smart people telling the masses who we should hate.”

Anyone who supports more speech, not less, would quickly see there is no equitable way to define hate speech or regulate it.

I did my “q.v.” homework. You never gave an example of speech that harms. Definitions of hate speech aren’t examples. Tying the essence of hate speech to ethnicity, race, creed, is not showing how a word can harm and further, why we need to regulate this harm. Or how on earth a court could rule on words that harm.

Isn’t regulating hate speech like rating movies R versus PG?

Are you saying there are some words no one is grown up enough to hear ever? Because they harm?

The truth of the deep leftward bias of all legacy and main stream media — Fire Ologist

The inability to view Fox News as also mainstream media is very telling of you. That media channel would simply have a bias to the right, yet not much else.

This is the argument now being put by sections of the commentariat on the right; that the left is complicit in violence that purportedly resulted from what they have said. — Banno

Please don't confuse this absurdly hypocritical power play for an "argument".

Fair, perhaps. The data shows something quite contrary to the narrative it seems is prominent in the US.

This is not news in the US, the discrepancy in violence is very, very obvious and well known. That the right is pretending otherwise, elevating a lone gunman from a solid MAGA family with no known ties to leftist groups into a Reichstag-like pretext for sweeping crackdowns on the left, is straight from the fascist playbook.

And if we are talking about rhetorical violence, the discrepancy is even more stark.

Indeed. You and I see this. What of them? :wink:

Another Conversation article spoke about McCarthyism, and the inept far-right “cancel culture” that can be seen even in this thread. The question might be, does the US have sufficient self-awareness to understand this, and to push back on this "new era of McCarthyism" as it has in the past? The re-election of Trump does not bode well.

North, south, east coast, west coast, city, farm, black, white, little Italy, china town, rich/poor - the American system survived a massive civil war. We survived the 1960s and the murder if so many politicians, and 2020 elections and a maga insurrection. Nothing really new about a free nation’s people at odds with their own unity — Fire Ologist

This time is different. During the Civil War one crucial issue profoundly divided the north and south, but on so many other cultural issues the electorate was mixed , not segregated by geography. Therenwas much more a rural or city resident of Massachusetts had in common with a resident of Georgia than what divided them. In the 1960’s the country was at war with itself, but a large percentage of the Democratic voters in urban America were socially conservative. Most of those voters have since left the liberal cites for the more conservative South and the far flung suburbs, and joined MAGA. As a result, what had been a mixed electorate for the Democratic party from the 1930’s though the 1960’s , reflecting a wide mix of social values within the big cities , has now become ideologically purified by geography ( population density) to an extent we have never seen before in this country. In the 1960’s the average blue collar resident of Chicago or San Francisco spoke the ‘same language’ as a worker living in Cheyenne Wyoming. That is no longer the case.

Trump’s success is because people in the cities, in the suburbs, on the farms, of every economic class, of all types of sexual preference, in every color, Hispanic, Native American, etc, etc, etc - so many agree. Basic street facts, like who is male, and who is the bully, and who needs help, and who is full of shit all of the time (Crockett) - they can’t be hidden forever. Media is losing and the Dems are losing with them. — Fire Ologist

There you go again with who is winning and who is losing. The media you’re referring to is urban American , the Dems are urban America and I am urban America. You say people in the cities agree? Let’s see what they agree about. This is how urban America feels about Trump; 70-80% in these major cities rejected him in 2024.

1)New York
2)Chicago
3)San Francisco
4)Los Angeles
5)Boston
6)Philadelphia
7)Seattle
8)Minneapolis
9)Milwaukee
10)Washington D.C.
11) Baltimore
12) Portland

That’s an overwhelming expression of solidarity and agreement about a way of life reflecting the values of a country within a country. As an actively participating member of one of these liberal urban communities, what am I losing beside taxpayer support from that other America? I know what I am gaining. I see it as I walk around the neighborhoods. My community has pulled together to affirm its commitments, and protect its values against encroachment from that other America, and to welcome refugees fleeing restrictive policies in red states. My own view of the larger picture is that what started out in the 1960’s as tiny enclaves of hippies and leftist intellectuals in cities has spread over the past 60 years to become the strong majority in urban America and more progressive elements which began with small groups of academics in the 1980’s has furthered the urban shift to the left. I don’t see shrinking numbers over this 60 year time span but the opposite, a steady growth and the emergence of a new kind of city way of life. Trump would not have won if the rest of the country wasn’t becoming aware of this growth in numbers , and becoming alarmed by it. No amount of legislation or political intimidation will slow its continued spread.

Very interesting analysis. How do you see this playing out over the next 4-8 years?

↪Joshs Very interesting analysis. How do you see this playing out over the next 4-8 years? — Tom Storm

My best guess is a sharp economic downturn and likely recession will ensue, and a collapse of the crypto and A.I. bubbles will hurt many average citizens economically and cause a backlash against the political leadership.

, yes, I agree with , an excellent post.

I do hope that the US has the resilience to move beyond its present malaise, and expect that it does. In the meantime it makes for entertaining viewing for us in foreign parts. So much so that twice a week the ABC (ours, not yours) airs a late night show called "Planet America". Some might find it interesting.

I'm curious as to whether it is available in the US?

1)New York
2)Chicago
3)San Francisco
4)Los Angeles
5)Boston
6)Philadelphia
7)Seattle
8)Minneapolis
9)Milwaukee
10)Washington D.C.
11) Baltimore
12) Portland — Joshs

Solidarity on Election Day once every four years (towing the Dem party/media line like the morally superior sheep we are told to be) but what about the rest of the time?

Who are the murderers in those places, and who are they murdering the most? Dems or repubs?

What are the values unique to those cities that the Dems are fostering and building up but the repubs are resisting? What values and will promoting those values help make those cities flourish?

The value isn’t debate and more unity.

Solidarity around hatred for Trump and maga (because the media says so in sound bites) but solidarity with each other?

You are kidding yourself.

None of those places could be a country - they rely too much on being fed and protected from outside. DC literally needed federal troops to reduce gun fire on the streets. Nothing to learn about the strength of our cities and culture there?

All of the those places are failing, sorry to say. You are making my point. I live in one of them. Liberalism is crumbling and taking its supporters with it. The urban democratic base better keep getting their welfare checks and EBT cards and virtue signals and AOC feel good speeches, or the Dems will lose them too.

Liberal utopia is more like China. Let’s talk free speech or “hate speech” in China (does anyone really know, because China doesn’t really let a lot of light in.). Is that the country within a country - socialist/communist paradise?

Over the next 4-8 years I hope people start recognizing the difference between a man and a woman again. Probably not, we are so far gone.

Someone who truly values diversity and inclusion would lament the disparity between urban voting patterns and non-urban. There is no new world order anywhere near us - just more fighting for no good reason.

I do hope that the US has the resilience to move beyond its present malaise, and expect that it does. — Banno

I appreciate that. And we certainly will. Conservatism has been muzzled since Clinton in America (the reason Rush Limbaugh was born hiding in AM radio). Conservatives have let the adolescents pretend to be in charge too long. Celebrating the death of people just won’t fly anymore. I don’t think Dems realize how impossible it was for Trump to get re-elected, yet he did. That should really tell you something.

Isn’t anyone concerned that the violent right wing monsters aren’t rioting over Charlie Kirk’s death? Surely they must want to do something in response? What are they planning?

I’m sure the Dems fear riots and insurrections.

But instead they are going to get more conservative speeches and will lose more and more elections. That’s my prediction.

More conservative speeches, ie. more “hate speech”.

The bullshit won’t work forever. You have to actually make things function.

Liberal Canada just announced 13 billion in government spending to build low income housing due to the housing crisis. They are goin to build 4,000 homes. Do the math - that’s fucking the stupidest thing Inever heard.

Mamdani is going to be mayor of New York. Free buses and groceries for all (or a total mess made worse waiting for a republican to come in a clean it up.)

80% of the US population is considered urban., but Trump got 49.1% of the popular vote..

I think the community you're referring to is educated urbanites, probably mostly white, so it's the 45% of whites who didn't vote for Trump. The group to watch is Latinos, who are now 20% of the US population, and voted for Trump in larger numbers in 2024 than previously.

All of the those places are failing, sorry to say. You are making my point. I live in one of them. — Fire Ologist

I’m curious. Which of the cities I listed do you live in? Do you live within the city limits or in a suburb? If you live within one of those cities I listed, you must be bombarded with viewpoints that are abhorrent to you. No wonder you feel they’re ’failing’.

What are the values unique to those cities that the Dems are fostering and building up but the repubs are resisting? What values and will promoting those values help make those cities flourish? — Fire Ologist

I’ve discussed the philosophical underpinnings of the spectrum of ideas on the left that runs from Hegel through Critical theory and that defines and organizes a range of political and social perspectives of the big cities. These philosophical underpinnings are not your cup of tea, so your criterion for flourishing will likely not be consistent with them. If you dont already, you deserve to live in the America where your philosophical values are shared by the lion’s share of your community. That way, you may be less tempted to engage in shrill competitive rhetoric concerning who is winning and who is losing. Don’t worry about our flourishing. We’ll figure that out in our own way. If our ways are failing you, you need to tend to the flourishing of your own community in your own way.

↪Joshs
80% of the US population is considered urban., but Trump got 49.1% of the popular vote..

I think the community you're referring to is educated urbanites, probably mostly white, so it's the 45% of whites who didn't vote for Trump. The group to watch is Latinos, who are now 20% of the US population, and voted for Trump in larger numbers in 2024 than previously. — frank

I’m focusing on the high population-dense cities themselves, not ‘urban areas’ inclusive of vast stretches of sprawling conservative suburbs. The former are the communities I have in mind. Around 15-20% of Americans live within the city limits of the 50 largest U.S. cities by population.

The facts are readily available.

Notice this, too:


Nothing surprising here.

I’m focusing on the high population-dense cities themselves, not ‘urban areas’ inclusive of vast stretches of sprawling conservative suburbs. The former are the communities I have in mind. Around 15-20% of Americans live within the city limits of the 50 largest U.S. cities by population. — Joshs

Ok, but doesn't that mean the "other America" you spoke of is 80-85% of the population? Is that what you meant?

Ok, but doesn't that mean the "other America" you spoke of is 80-85% of the population? Is that what you meant? — frank

I don’t mean that literally 80-85% of the country is hostile to the philosophical and political values that urban America stands for. My point is that the cities give us the closest
thing to a consensus on these values, allowing us to think of them as representing a ‘country within a country’

and who is full of shit all of the time (Crockett) — Fire Ologist

We do have a record holder. ^{(2020, 2020, 2024)}
I guess people can double down with excuses or not care.

I don’t mean that literally 80-85% of the country is hostile to the philosophical and political values that urban America stands for. My point is that the cities give us the closest
thing to a consensus on these values, allowing us to think of them as representing a ‘country within a country’ — Joshs

:up: This is a view of Chicago from the suburbs. It looks like Oz.