If every action originates from the actor’s internal state, then no act can be wholly “selfless.”...
The mind is inherently solipsistic
The ultimate motivation, therefore, always resides within.
Psychological studies confirm this. Acts of charity, generosity, and volunteerism are correlated with activation in the brain’s reward centers (ventral striatum, medial prefrontal cortex). Helping others feels good, biologically. The altruist experiences hormonal reinforcement through dopamine and oxytocin — demonstrating that “good deeds” literally reward the doer. — Copernicus
IDK, it seems to me that all this shows is that all intentional behavior involves desire and that all things desire the good. — Count Timothy von Icarus
are they being selfish? — Harry Hindu
what "selfishness" is not — Harry Hindu
That is, it is precisely the epistemic presuppositions that absolutize the individual in solipsistic bubbles that make it impossible for the Good to be recognized as diffusive (because the "desirable" just becomes "whatever is currently desired by an individual). It becomes impossible to know the Good (particularly in a naturalist frame where teleology is stripped out) and so what we really have is emotivism established by axiomatic presupposition, with the "Good" now demoted to a sort of procedural ideal for the allocation of an irreducible multiplicity of goods sought by individuals. But this isn't the result of logical necessity or any empirical finding, but simply flows from axiomatic epistemic assumptions.
Whatever goes against you (want/desire/interest/feelings). — Copernicus
I desire to eat but I want a six pack set of abominals. I want to have the high from exercise but don't want to put in the time. I crave sugar but I'm diabetic. In what sense can the "self" be against itself? — Nils Loc
339.—We only appreciate our good or evil in proportion to our self-love.
336.—There is a kind of love, the excess of which forbids jealousy.
267.—A quickness in believing evil without having sufficiently examined it, is the effect of pride and laziness. We wish to find the guilty, and we do not wish to trouble ourselves in examining the crime. — La Rochefoucauld, Maxims and Reflections
The problem with your bubble is that the generality of the explanation renders any particular instance useless for inquiry. Distinctions without a difference. — Paine
Explicit — Buying goods — Money for product
Implicit — Friendship — Companionship for loyalty
Subconscious — Charity — Relief from guilt or joy of giving
Symbolic — Heroism — Recognition, legacy, identity — Copernicus
Well, we can all agree that every action has a motivation of some kind and that motivation "moves" the agent. To conclude from that that every action is selflish is just playing with words. What matters is what moves the agent. If I respond to pain with sympathy and the attempt to help, or take my children to the sea-side because their delight gives me pleasure, those is at least a candidates for a selfless actionPhilosophy has long divided human action into the “selfish” and the “selfless.”
Yet such a distinction may be more linguistic than real. Every deliberate human act is born from an internal desire — whether that desire seeks pleasure, avoids pain, fulfills duty, or maintains identity. — Copernicus
Very few actions originate from the actor's internal state. Most of them are a response to the world around us. All the people you mention - the soldier, the mother, the philanthropist - are responding to the situation they are in, in the world they are in.If every action originates from the actor’s internal state, then no act can be wholly “selfless.” Even apparent self-sacrifice — the soldier dying for his country, the mother starving for her child, the philanthropist donating wealth — finds its roots in personal satisfaction, emotional fulfillment, or existential meaning. — Copernicus
There's truth in that. Where does the meaning, the discipline, the other come from?Every act of kindness, every moral code, every love story is a negotiation between biology and meaning, desire and discipline, self and other. — Copernicus
Maybe. But the individualist who cannot imagine goods that are shared by everyone will never understand individuals. For better or worse, we are social beings. Arguably, we all benefit from that. But perhaps you can't recognize the benefits. We (mostly) respect each other's property, and as a result, I can enjoy my property (mostly) in peace. Because people mostly respect the rule about driving on the left or right, everyone can drive more safely. Because people mostly respect their own promises, everyone can do their business. These things are not oppressions, they are enablers.Until the communitarian comes to terms with the fact of our separateness, of our individuation, the communitarian Good can never be imagined in any other sense as individual, selfish desire. — NOS4A2
Say someone was born with the need to help others, sometimes to the detriment of other wants and needs, but if one of their needs is to help others, and they find satisfaction in helping others, then would that fall into your definition of "selfish"? — Harry Hindu
The virtue lies in the good feeling. The difference between someone who gets pleasure from the pleasure of others is different in important ways from the person who gets pleasure from the pain of others. The one spreads pleasure, the other spreads pain. Who would you prefer for your next-door neighbour?because it's giving them a good feeling, at least, if no other transactional motive is present. — Copernicus
Oh dear, you will have to find your way out of that cage on your own - unless someone helps you. On the other hand, if you can recognize that solipsism is a cage, there is some hope for you.The self is caged in the solipsistic bubble and can only act from within. — Copernicus
or take my children to the sea-side because their delight gives me pleasure, those is at least a candidates for a selfless action — Ludwig V
Every act of kindness, every moral code, every love story is a negotiation between biology and meaning, desire and discipline, self and other. — Copernicus
Thanks for that.Great post, just that one line sticks out to me as something that others might gloss over thus prematurely proving the OP's premise as valid. — Outlander
There's a case for considering generosity to one's children is a kind of selfishness. But that just reveals that what counts as selfishness is not necessarily obvious. What do we make of the virtue of looking after one's family? In the context of wider society, it can look like selfishness. In the context of traditional individualism, it is altruism.But they're still your children. — Outlander
Yes, but the point is that I consider those happy children to be a benefit and not a drag. The rest of it is far from guaranteed. However, if my generosity to them was predicated on those happy outcomes. that would undermine my claim to generosity.It benefits your family and existence directly to have happy children who live productive lives, possibly earning lots of money, holding you in high regard, esteem, and favor, and then taking care of you when you're enfeebled. — Outlander
say some sort of hypothetical secret act to make the world a better place, by someone without children or family, who therefore has nothing to gain from making said world a better place? :chin: — Outlander
those is at least a candidates for a selfless action — Ludwig V
There's nothing wrong with personal satisfaction, emotional fulfilment and existential meaning in themselves. — Ludwig V
Where does the meaning, the discipline, the other come from? — Ludwig V
The difference between someone who gets pleasure from the pleasure of others is different in important ways from the person who gets pleasure from the pain of others. — Ludwig V
if you can recognize that solipsism is a cage, there is some hope for you. — Ludwig V
You miss the point where the distinction arises. If your vision is of peace and justice for everyone, it is altruistic. If your vision is of your own well-being and prosperity alone, it is selfish.You serve your vision of a better world. — Copernicus
Thanks. Very helpful.No. — Copernicus
You only read part of what I said. You will surely not see what you choose not to look for.Exactly. Everything is about that one way or another. — Copernicus
How would you know?No one escapes it. — Copernicus
Great post, just that one line sticks out to me as something that others might gloss over thus prematurely proving the OP's premise as valid.
— Outlander
Thanks for that.
But they're still your children.
— Outlander
There's a case for considering generosity to one's children is a kind of selfishness. But that just reveals that what counts as selfishness is not necessarily obvious. What do we make of the virtue of looking after one's family? In the context of wider society, it can look like selfishness. In the context of traditional individualism, it is altruism.
Think of benefactors of your town or city or of art rather than homelessness.
I could spend my money and time on my personal pleasures and leave the kids without. Would that not be selfish? Is helping out my friends and neighbours not generous, because they are my friends and neighbours? Yet, I agree that exclusive attention to my kids, neglecting my partner, would be wrong.
It benefits your family and existence directly to have happy children who live productive lives, possibly earning lots of money, holding you in high regard, esteem, and favor, and then taking care of you when you're enfeebled.
— Outlander
Yes, but the point is that I consider those happy children to be a benefit and not a drag. The rest of it is far from guaranteed. However, if my generosity to them was predicated on those happy outcomes. that would undermine my claim to generosity. — Ludwig V
You miss the point where the distinction arises. If your vision is of peace and justice for everyone, it is altruistic. If your vision is of your own well-being and prosperity alone, it is selfish. — Ludwig V
You only read part of what I said. You will surely not see what you choose not to look for. — Ludwig V
How would you know? — Ludwig V
You're a bit of a dill, arn't you.As a solipsist, that's the core of my worldview. — Copernicus
Well, I'll just leave you to it. There's not much fun to be had here.As a solipsist, that's the core of my worldview. — Copernicus
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