If someone says they are gay or transgender we have to have a really good reason to frame them as suffering from some form of mental disorder > which is a separate item to transgenderism or sexual orientation as far as we currently understand these phenomena. — I like sushi

I want to be clear that the desire to be the other sex is not a disorder. Being trans gender is not a disorder. It is when that desire starts disrupting your life to the point you cannot function normally that you have gender dysphoria. Yes, some people talk about it like teenagers talk about 'my OCD' in a slang way, but diagnosed gender dysphoria sucks.

It is not the desire to be another sex that is the disorder, it is when it consumes your life. Just like you can be depressed at times and not need medication, you can have gender dysphoric moments and manage it fine in your life. Transition is not a way of life. It is a medically prescribed coping mechanism for chronic gender dysphoria that does not respond to any other methods or medication. In my experience, these are usually not trans gender individuals, these are trans sexuals that desire the body and recognition of being the other sex. That is why it is covered by insurance. It is not a normal or natural thing for anyone to do. It is a treatment for an inability to regulate oneself normally anymore.

Are there people who want to make it a life style? Yes. I don't mind personally as long as they don't make insurance pay for it. Insurance is for treatment, not cosmetic alteration of the body for one's own pleasure. I would argue that if you have a desire to alter your body its a disorder of a different kind, but not gender dysphoria.

Maybe many people here do not appreciate that this century people will very likely be able to literally switch their bodies from male to female. — I like sushi

Could be. Stem cell research could come along finally and we could eventually change someone's sex. In science a species is considered to have changed their sex if they can serve the reproductive role of the other. So a male would shift to producing eggs which can be fertilized and hatched. A female would produce sperm to fertilize other eggs. But again, this is really trans sexuals we are talking about. Plenty of trans gender individuals have no desire to change their body. Nice contribution!

The main point Banno seems to be making here is there is a clear difference between stating something is logically true and making a judgement call. Ironically he agrees with Jordan Peterson here, — I like sushi

:wink:

The difference between a fact and a value has a longer history than eve that, and Peterson, for all his faults, may have some idea of what Hume had to say.

If someone says they are gay or transgender we have to have a really good reason to frame them as suffering from some form of mental disorder > which is a separate item to transgenderism or sexual orientation as far as we currently understand these phenomena. — I like sushi

I'm not sure if this was a view you were attributing to someone else, or were advocating yourself.

Might be worth clarifying.

For my part, I see Amadeus as hiding his prejudices in medical language. — Banno

Schizophrenic people are also mentally ill. There is no prejudice in admitting to this. I cannot even begin to understand why you run to this instead of looking the statement in its face: If you have a direct break with reality that causes severe distress, that's a mental illness. It need not be intractable, or alienating, or anything worthy of anything but compassion and understanding. They are not exclusive to one another. I have nothing to hide. I could simply be wrong.

Its now a mental health condition like depression. — Philosophim

I'm happy to use this language, if its easier on the mind. I don't particularly see a difference between the two, personally. Although, I am fairly convinced depression is an amorphous diagnosis not pointing to any particularly brainstate.

"Transgender" is an umbrella term for people whose gender identity differs from the sex assigned at birth, while gender dysphoria is the distress or unease caused by that difference. — Banno

This, as best I can tell, is pure prevarication. Transgenderism is a behaviour designed to ameliorate the symptoms of a mental condition of dysphoria as we call it. If you want to tease those two apart, fine, let's do that. I'm happy as long as the language accurate represents what I'm saying. The point is that having a mental state which sets reality (your sex) apart from yourself (your identity) then there is something aberrant going on - as with people who believe they're Jesus - just different in kind.

So with that said:

Do you have an argument to support that assertion? — Janus

They have a direct break with the reality of their actual, objective body. If you have to quibble with the language to make this work, so be it. But semantics clearly aren't hte big issue here.

I don't see that I owe a reply to Amadeus, given his blatant hostility. — Banno

I've been overtly polite to you recently. If you've read my posts as 'blatant hostility' I think perhaps you need to take a long, calming break from talking to other humans lest your victim complex cause you to but heads with everyone. I'll continue to be polite.

I'm here. If you have substantive points to make, or if there is something I have not addressed, set it out. — Banno

You literally do not read posts with substantive points, and then call htem 'meandering'. It's impossible to get on with you in this mood.

Amadeus is like a magic eight ball. When he gets shook up he will just say shit. — I like sushi

You might say that. I couldn't possibly comment... — Banno

Am I'm the hostile one... right oh. Theres something woefully amiss in a couple of blokes talking to each other about someone else in terms that are objectively nonsense. Far be it from me i guess.. You cannot continually be a dick and pretend its someone else's fault. Perhaps you've not had children, but none of this behaviour is foreign to those who have.

Looks pretty clear. Most trans people have a mental illness.

You might consider what it is you are defending. — Banno

Reality. Mental illness exists. Believing you're in the wrong body is mental illness writ large. Defending that belief without recourse to the aberrant, irrational nature of it is beneath the type of discussion we're having.

It may be worth you not replying at this point. I can see there is no actual discussion possible here. There's a severe inability to divorce your feelings from what's said, and what's said from who has said it. I can't quite bring myself to get into that pool.

They have a direct break with the reality of their actual, objective body. If you have to quibble with the language to make this work, so be it. But semantics clearly aren't hte big issue here. — AmadeusD

The assumption that all transgender people experience gender dysphoria, i.e. profound unhappiness and psychic distress, is an unfounded generalization.

The assumption that all transgender people experience gender dysphoria, i.e. profound unhappiness and psychic distress, is an unfounded generalization. — Janus

I believe he's talking about transitioned individuals. The only way to be medically transitioned is to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria. There are people who transition who do it for cosmetic reasons, but from the context of his post he's not referring to them. So unless a transitioned person faked gender dysphoria or paid for it on their own dime, its a safe bet that they have gender dysphoria.

Well he said this,

The majority of trans people are not victims of anything but the unfortunate situation of having a mental illness. — AmadeusD

and my response was misworded and should have been referring to the "majority" rather than "all'. So, it should have read: " the assumption that the majority of transgender people experience gender dysphoria, i.e. profound unhappiness and psychic distress, is an unfounded generalization.

and my response was misworded and should have been referring to the "majority" rather than "all'. So, it should have read: " the assumption that the majority of transgender people experience gender dysphoria, i.e. profound unhappiness and psychic distress, is an unfounded generalization. — Janus

Not a worry at all. If you mean trans gender people, I agree. But if his intention was transitioned people, he's correct. The number of medically transitioned individuals far outweighs those who did it cosmetically.

The presumption, in , seems to be that transitioning does not treat gender dysphoria.

That is, from what I have seen, factually incorrect. Meta-studies are readily available to justify this position.

Note that we have moved to empirical studies, rather then considering conceptual issues. We are no longer doing philosophy.

Right, if we say that gender dysphoria is a mental illness, and we have a cure (transitioning) then problem solved. For the rest of the transgender folk who don't experience intense pain and suffering, but perhaps just some milder confusion and suffering attendant upon feeling "different" on account of their desire to identify as the gender opposite to their biological sex, there should be no major problem if they receive the counseling they may or may not need.

If I recall correctly, @Philosophim had strong reservations concerning regret after gender-affirmation surgery. Studies I found show that regret is a factor, however at low levels, but note methodological issues. It doesn't appear to be a strong enough factor to inform policy.

People may regret many different kinds of decisions in life which cannot, for practical reasons, be undone. That fact does not justify intervention by the state to "protect" people from themselves, unless perhaps if regret were found to be intense in the majority of cases.