No actually. I'm going to reach out to some other moderators and request that you not. — Philosophim

This is very childish. You actually chose to ignore these comments:

(I) intend to stay out of it — Jamal

I shall leave you to do your thing. — Jamal

I suggest you carry on discussing your OP, because I won't be posting in this discussion again.

I suggest you carry on discussing your OP, because I won't be posting in this discussion again. — Jamal

Fantastic, thank you.

If transwomen are women or transmen are men just because of cultural or habitual identity, does carrying a gun or shooting down schools make a Norwegian an American, or does loving KFC chicken make a caucasian man an African American, regardless of ethnicity or nationality?

Because it's pretty much stereotyping. We're stereotyping sexes here.

If transwomen are women or transmen are men just because of cultural or habitual identity, does carrying a gun or shooting down schools make a Norwegian an American, or does loving KFC chicken make a caucasian man an African American, regardless of ethnicity or nationality? — Copernicus

That's not the argument he was making. He was noting that the term 'man' may rely on biology, but it is not a fixed biological definition like 'spleen' for example. Since a man is 'an adult male', the definition of adult can change based on the culture. He was not arguing against the point I was making that we use man to reference a biological male, or indicating we should change it to mean a gendered one. He really wasn't addressing the OP, just noting that 'male' is a strict biolological referent while 'man' is a definition that can change due to the addition of the socially constructed identity of 'adult'.

That's not the argument he was making. — Philosophim

I didn't counter him. I responded to the fact he presented.

I didn't counter him. I responded to the fact he presented. — Copernicus

Ah fair. My apologies, I'm just trying to clear up the vocabulary. I'll let TClark respond.

Heh, we used to have a moderator who warned he would ban anyone who said what you just said, as if that was hate speech or something. I guess times have changed. — frank

I think you're just misreading my comment and not keeping it contextualized. My comment was responsive to yours, which started off with the word "really" as if to imply you were offering a moment of true objectivity. I pointed out your comment included certain assumptions, namely of a third gender, which was specifically the topic of debate.

I offered no opinion on the subject other than to say that you offered an opinion on the subject, which may or may not itself be correct, which means your use of the word "really" did nothing other than to assert you could see it more clearly where others couldn't.

Then you suggested we've banned people for such commentary, resulting in whatever just followed, which really is not helpful, considering it incorrectly asserts inconsistency on the mod team and sends the message to others, to the extent they listen to you, that we will not tolerate any opinion that even subtly questions mainstream liberal progressive views on trassexual speech or categories.

If transwomen are women or transmen are men just because of cultural or habitual identity, does carrying a gun or shooting down schools make a Norwegian an American, or does loving KFC chicken make a caucasian man an African American, regardless of ethnicity or nationality? — Copernicus

Worst. Argument. Ever.

I think you're just misreading my comment and not keeping it contextualized. My comment was responsive to yours, which started off with the word "really" as if to imply you were offering a moment of true objectivity. — Hanover

My point was that meaning is found in use, which is why I told a story about a particular case. I didn't claim to know something about it that isn't known to us all, and I don't even know what a third gender is.

So I see that you do believe a transgender woman is rightly called a woman. Thanks for the clarification.

Then you suggested we've banned people for such commentary, resulting in whatever just followed, which really is not helpful, considering it incorrectly asserts inconsistency on the mod team and sends the message to others, to the extent they listen to you, that we will not tolerate any opinion that even subtly questions mainstream liberal progressive views on trassexual speech or categories. — Hanover

I correctly asserted that in the past a moderator stated that he would ban people for disagreeing that transgender woman is a woman. That's a fact. I misunderstood your comment to be saying that a transgender woman should rightly be called a biological male. My point was that attitudes have changed drastically in a short amount of time.

Does anybody else want to vomit all over frank? This is the day for it.

I correctly asserted that in the past a moderator stated that he would ban people for disagreeing that transgender woman is a woman. That's a fact. — frank

I think in the interests of being on scope with the OP, we shouldn't call out moderators or accuse the site of being overly restrictive in the past without a citation and context. Today I'm able to post a discussion about the question of the phrase 'trans x is x' without any threat of banning or moderation. That's a credit to the site and the people who run it.

Frank, do you have any criticism or addition to the OP's argument? I promise I won't vomit all over you. :)

I don't see why.

This should be fun...

My take is that 'transgender' needs to be read prima facie. transgender. In this way, we simply carve sex off from gender. They are related in many ways (even on relatively flimsy ideological takes) but are clearly, imo different things. Again, even on ideological grounds (one example is the scientifically inaccurate claim that there are some points other than male and female on a sex spectrum for humans that doesn't cause a link between sex and gender to emerge).

Males can never become pregnant. But females can. So if males(sex) can be women(gender), we don't run into a contradiction until we conflate sex and gender. But it would seem to me males cannot be female. So if you hold anything essentially male or female to constitute 'man' or 'woman' then that's an issue for your terminology.

There are other comments to make about merits and the continuing effects of policy, but I think this is a non-problematic way to think of it intellectually. It seems perhaps people such as Jamal are not really in a position to make comments on this subject, if unable to stray into wanton disregard for reason, civility and differing views.

Don't look for an all purpose essence. Look to particular cases of use. I think the imperative to refer to transwomen as women was part of a political cause that gained strength very quickly in the UK and in the US. It's been subsiding, starting in the UK, and now in the US. One factor in the draw down was the information that having gender dysphoria does not mean a person is trans.

My point is that the contexts in which we would say a transwoman is a woman are usually political, and that scene in presently in flux.

Yes, very clear insight there.

Yes, very clear insight there. — AmadeusD

Nice to have you back, dude.