Well the immediate alternative is a social model. Rather than that you have got the imaginary pathogen of depression leading to the wrong chemicals in your brain, we would start from the idea that you are manifesting symptoms of a dysfunctional social matrix, such that you are being blamed for something that you have no control over, perhaps, or some other toxic relationship. — unenlightened

I do think any method that is effective should be tried, and it might be that much unhappiness arises from dysfunctional social situations. But what of those that are well beyond that, like the schizophrenic, extreme cases of borderline, suicidal, seriously addicted. I don't feel any particular need to protect the psychiatric industry, but I'm not so willing to throw it out for all people if it has proven successes.

I am rather surprised that you challenge questioning the medical model. Also, I am not sure about your division between experience as being subjective and behaviour as objective.

As far as the medical model is concerned it is bound up with values, especially of what is 'normal' or acceptable. This involves ideas and what counts as delusions. For example, religious and spiritual ideas. The cultural context is important. Similarly, ideas of acceptable behaviour are socially constructed. The medical model and science are established by underpinning values, rather than being value free.

With difference between experience and behaviour, the fine line may be the interaction between experience and behaviour. Experience includes thoughts and feelings, whereas behaviour is about how a person acts in regard to thoughts and feelings. For example, a person may experience intrusive thoughts of suicide or harming others and what is critical is the perceived risk of a person acting out the intrusive thoughts.

How a person understands experience is important in itself. Interpretation of experience is not merely subjective because it involves others' understanding, which in turn affects subjective experience.

But what of those that are well beyond that, like the schizophrenic, extreme cases of borderline, suicidal, seriously addicted. I don't feel any particular need to protect the psychiatric industry, but I'm not so willing to throw it out for all people if it has proven successes. — Hanover

What is a proven success in this context? If one takes the view of the addict, a steady clean supply is success, but others might consider drug free life to be success, although the latter might then consider a steady supply to be success in the case of the schizophrenic or the suicidal.

From a social perspective, I think success would be more like finding a social niche where the 'illness' becomes an asset. A schizophrenic would be suited to a career in shamanism, communication with the dead, or some other blue sky thinking - fine art? For the paranoid, a job with security, perhaps; for the anxious, health and safety. (I speak of jobs and careers here, not to recommend that organisation of society, but simply because that happens to be the current socially recognised mark of success.)

Evidence about medication is important. It is a complex area because it involves quantitative and qualitative evidence and both subjective experience, as well as observations of others about a person's treatment. With any medication, there is an issue of placebo effects, but this would not explain the full impact of SSRIs as with any other medication. Part of the problem with forms of meditation is that effects do differ from individual to individual, which may say more about what is unique. Advances in neuroscience may help in tailoring medication.

If anything, it may be that medication is being prescribed or sought as a shortcut. I do take SSRI(Fluoextine) medication myself. I requested it when I was feeling very low in mood. If I stop taking it, sometimes I notice a difference and sometimes not. Mood is affected by so many variables, including overalk physical wellness and factors in life.

The shifts between different models of mind and behaviour is where philosophy and psychiatry is an important interface. I have read Jung and I often wonder what is going on my own psyche, as well as trying to understand others' experiences. How causation of thoughts and agency is significant.

Apart from the issue of how a person behaves in response to thoughts there is also the question how does thinking and feeling differ in itself? Feelings may be connected to the body more whereas thoughts with cognitive brain processes. However, the brain and thinking cannot be split off between body and 'mind'/brain as they are interconnected in a dynamic way. This is the case in differing models. In neuroscience, the chemistry of thought is intricate. Within psychodynamic theory, the conscious and subconscious are not completely separate too. But, the understanding of thinking and feeling does differ so much according to perspectives. I wonder to what extent psychiatry training includes philosophical reflection on this complex area.

Experience includes thoughts and feelings, whereas behaviour is about how a person acts in regard to thoughts and feelings. For example, a person may experience intrusive thoughts of suicide or harming others and what is critical is the perceived risk of a person acting out the intrusive thoughts. — Jack Cummins

The perceived risk is the subjective experience of another, of the person in question's behaviour. Are you claiming that the experience of the 'expert' is objective?

Hearing voices is fairly common, and not necessarily problematic for the individual or society.
https://www.hearing-voices.org/#content
So I suggest that intrusive voices speaking of violence are sometimes made intrusive and violent by being suppressed and ignored. My first advice to someone who hears voices would be to be very careful who they talk to about them, and then to listen and respond to their voices respectfully. One rationale for this is that they are part of the person who hears them that they haven't fully integrated; some people find their negative feelings unacceptable but undeniable and so project them into the ether as some 'other' within the psyche. And sometimes, it is just the way they think about things.

But such a tendency can also be an aid to creativity, such as the novelist whose characters are sometimes perceived by them to have their own views on where the novel should go. So again, the social aspect and the external assumption that there is a problem is a large part of the problem.

If you have a vivid imagination, it can be an aid to thinking and a boon to society. An architect's function in society is to visualise a building in such fine detail and completeness and realism, that they can give complete instructions on its construction in reality. She has to see the building that does not exist so clearly as to be able to draw detailed plans and elevations complete with measurements and materials specifications. We call them hallucinations when we cannot make sense of, or find a use for another's imaginings.

A schizophrenic would be suited to a career in shamanism, communication with the dead, or some other blue sky thinking - fine art? — unenlightened

Shamans impose themselves on others though, burning smoky sagebush and spitting magic liquid. I find them as annoying as you find psychologists.

But, sure, to the extent we can find jobs for the schizophrenic, let's do that. Many end up on the street, institutionalized, or heavy burdens on their family. To the extent there might be a cure or at least a way to mitigate the behavior to help them function in society, it ought be pursued.

I find them as annoying as you find psychologists. — Hanover

Keep taking the tablets! Annoyance is a serious and distressing condition, but it can be controlled with the appropriate medication. Have you read Brave New World?

I do take SSRI(Fluoextine) medication myself. — Jack Cummins

I tried SSRIs a long time ago, but the best positive effect they had for me was i felt a little calmer and smoothed out. There were multiple side effects, but the only one im willing to mention is it seemed to make me want to engage in other recreational drug behaviors more than when im not taking them.

Have you read Brave New World? — unenlightened

As far as you and my high school teacher are concerned, I did. You might be throwing the baby out with the bath water with your complete rejection of psychiatry. Maybe you've got a personal story there.