• J
    2.2k
    This is a problem that arises when considering psychologism and logic as rival accounts of what
    thinking is. Versions of this go back as far as Frege, probably further. Karl Popper also addresses this implicitly when he considers “objective knowledge” versus the psychological fact of thinking. Similarly, Donald Davidson is interested in reasons as causes of physical actions, but his thesis in “Actions, Reasons, and Causes” would presumably apply to mental actions (thoughts) as well. On the other hand, Nietzsche wrote, “It is just an illusion that one thought is the immediate cause of another thought. The events which are actually connected are played out below our consciousness.” (What he has in mind here is of great interest, but outside the scope of my OP.)

    There are reasons for questioning whether the concept of causality as such is even a useful one; the excellent OP by @T Clark and subsequent discussion shows why. But for this thread, I’m going to accept the idea that our common understanding and use of “cause” is meaningful, and refers to a genuine phenomenon in the world. As @T Clark allows, “It works for certain everyday events at human scale, e.g. if I push the grocery cart it moves.” I think we should see “thought-to-thought connection” as another example of an everyday event at human scale – at any rate, that’s the premise of what follows.

    The question is whether the movement from one thought to another is a type of causation, and if it is not, how should we describe this familiar experience? I’m not going to defend a particular answer to this question, but try to show why the problem needs consideration.

    Here’s the set-up:

    A. I think: “I wonder how my friend Ann is doing.”

    B. I then think: “It’s her birthday soon; I must get her a present.”

    The most standard description of what’s going on here is, I believe, something like: “The first thought reminded me of the second thought,” or “When I thought of Ann, I remembered it was her birthday soon, which reminded me that I want to get her a present.”

    But can we also speak of this in casual terms? Again, this seems in accord with common usage. We might say, “Thinking of Ann caused me to remember her birthday.” But perhaps this is just loose talk.

    What sense of “thought” is being appealed to here? Is it “thought” as a mental event (presumably grounded in brain activity), or is it “thought” as proposition or propositional content?

    Google’s ever-helpful chat-program – presumably reflecting some kind of cyberworld consensus – would like to straighten this out for us:

    “Causation involves a physical connection between events, while entailment is a relationship between propositions.”

    The first thing to notice about Google’s “physical connection between events” idea is that it begs the question of what mental-to-physical causation would have to consist of. The connection between a thought (“I want to call my friend”) and an action (I pick up my phone) is stipulated to be a physical connection, if it is indeed to be causal. Now our helpful but not very deep chat-program has in “mind” things like billiard balls, of course, where both cause and effect are physical. But this won’t do as an allegedly obvious description of mental-to-physical causation; it would need to be demonstrated and argued for, showing that the “mental” part is really somehow physical.

    A causal connection between thoughts is even less acceptable as a “physical connection between events.” If it were causal, it would be an example of mental-to-mental causation, with no reference to the physical whatsoever.

    Or would it? Putting aside the question of physical reduction, is a thought a strictly mental or psychological event, something that happens in time?

    We need two important discriminations here. First: There is an entire debate that could be launched at this point concerning the relation between minds and brains, between thoughts and neural events. That is not the debate I want to open. If you believe, with Google’s chat-program, that any causal connection must be physical, and that therefore, if thoughts cause other thoughts, then they can only do so via a description in terms of neuronal activity – not much in this OP will really interest you. The physicalist reduction of mind to brain is a respectable (though I think misguided) position, but the problem I’m raising assumes it is incorrect.

    Second: We need to further distinguish the two senses of “thought.” Let’s return to the two quoted statements in A and B. We can view these statements in two distinct ways. On one view, they represent thoughts that occur to a particular mind at a particular time. They are psychological events. They begin and end. They will presumably be correlated in some way with brain events but, as above, we’re assuming they don’t reduce to brain events.

    The other way to view them is as propositions. On that view, neither A nor B is to be identified with any particular “mental utterance.” They are not thoughts, except in Frege’s use of the term, by which he only means what we now call propositions.

    Since propositions, on the common understanding, occupy no physical or mental space – this is somewhat mysterious, but it is the usual construal – they can hardly be the subjects or objects of causality, or so it would appear. (In this they are rather like numbers: we certainly don’t say that 2 + 2 cause 4.)

    But the first view, where the quoted statements in A and B are my thoughts or your thoughts, can be analyzed differently. We all know the experience of having a thought, A, which leads directly to another thought, B. Ordinary language endorses statements like my “When I thought of Ann (A), it made me remember that I hadn’t yet gotten her birthday present (B).” How strong is “made me remember” in such a phrasing? This can be debated, but the causal implication remains, or at the least a cause-like influence: Thought B would not have occurred to me, had I not had Thought A first, and this happened very directly, much as an efficient cause operates.

    To keep this use of “thought” distinct from the propositional content of a thought, I’ll call it a “W2 thought” from now on, in honor of Popper’s World 2 of mental events. (Those of you who know Popper will recognize my set-up as Popperian in origin, with propositions in this case being examples of World 3 objects.) The key distinction between thoughts and propositions, on this view, is that W2 thoughts occur in time and space, as individual mental or psychological utterances, whereas propositions (again, somewhat mysteriously) do not. My W2 thought can never be the same thought as your W2 thought, even if we think the same proposition. That is because it occurs in my mind, not yours.

    As philosophers, we’ll probably also want to give a more nuanced story about this, which might include an account of how the mental supervenes on the physical, such that brains and W2 thoughts can thrive together. But even without such a story, there’s a clear sense that the arrow of causation (or influence, if you prefer) goes one way and not the other, when it comes to W2 thoughts – just as it does in the physical world. And we certainly make counter-factual assertions about how W2 thoughts link together (“If I hadn’t W2-thought about Ann, I wouldn’t have W2-thought of her birthday present”).

    So the question I want to pose is simply this: When we speak of one thought causing another, are we speaking about W2 thoughts, or about propositions?

    If the former, then we need a theory about how psychological events can be causative. I think (though I’m not certain) that such a theory – long the Holy Grail of this area of inquiry – would equally explain both mental and physical effects. In other words, if we can understand how my thought of Ann causes me to think about her birthday present, we can also understand how that thought might cause me to pick up the phone and call her. This seems to be a general problem about the causal power of W2 thoughts, not a specific one about mental-to-mental causation.

    If the latter, then we need a theory about how propositions can be causative. Why this is different from W2 thoughts being causative is crucial to understand. If a proposition can be said to have causal power, then this must be so regardless of any particular instantiation or utterance of that proposition. Such a theory would argue that the power is not psychological but rational. The fact that the W2 thought of Ann leads to the W2 thought about her birthday is not (adequately) explained merely by the congruence in time, in my brain, of the two thoughts. Rather, it is explained by the rational connection between the meaning or content of the two thoughts – that is, their propositional content.

    This idea is perhaps clearer if we substitute a genuine entailment for the less formal example of Ann and her birthday: I think, “If all humans are mortal and everything that is mortal is beautiful, and Socrates is human, then Socrates is beautiful.” I then think, “Socrates is mortal”. Lastly, I think, “Therefore Socrates is beautiful”. Why do I think “Therefore Socrates is beautiful”? Am I “caused” to do so? Not everyone who has the first two thoughts – understood now as W2 thoughts – would go on to conclude that Socrates is beautiful. Only someone who understands the connections of propositional content will see the necessity of this. So a great deal hangs on whether this kind of necessity – a strictly logical or rational necessity – can ever be considered causative.

    This takes us back to the Google chatbot’s confident statement that “causation involves a physical connection between events, while entailment is a relationship between propositions.” We have good reason to doubt the first half of that statement; I’m suggesting that the second half is also suspicious, if it’s meant to imply that entailment is not or cannot be causative. Entailment is indeed “a relationship between propositions,” and the connection between the two Ann thoughts is also “a relationship between propositions,” but this formulation is nearly empty. What do we actually understand about the nature of these relationships?

    Not enough, I believe. The floor is open. And if I were critiquing my own OP, I’d start by asking, “Is it really possible to ‛have’ a W2 thought without understanding its propositional content (assuming it has one)?” What do we mean when we talk about “having a thought”, anyway? I’d also raise the question of whether asking “Can a Thought Cause Another Thought?” is clear enough, without first being much more specific about what we want “cause” to cover.
  • Sir2u
    3.6k
    What do we mean when we talk about “having a thought”, anyway? I’d also raise the question of whether asking “Can a Thought Cause Another Thought?” is clear enough, without first being much more specific about what we want “cause” to cover.J

    Do all thoughts have or need a cause? But first of all exactly what is a thought? Is it that voice we hear in our heard, or do we have unheard thoughts as well?
  • Copernicus
    360
    The first thought reminded me of the second thoughtJ

    Thoughts are like actions. They're a continuous process. Whether one gives birth to another or spawns subsequently is not the question here. When I eat, I drink. It's continuous. My throat is full, so I water down. You can call it a reaction or a simple chain of actions.
  • J
    2.2k
    Do all thoughts have or need a cause?Sir2u

    Good question. But do you mean "thoughts" understood as my W2 thoughts, or thoughts as propositions?

    But first of all exactly what is a thought? Is it that voice we hear in our head, or do we have unheard thoughts as well?Sir2u

    I'm suggesting that "thought" can be understood in at least two ways. The "voice in the head" version would be what I'm calling a W2 thought. Unheard thoughts? I think not, for purposes of this discussion. (I'm assuming you mean "unheard" metaphorically, so it translates to "thoughts I'm not aware of having.")

    Thoughts are like actions. They're a continuous process.Copernicus

    I agree, they are. So, as with actions, we tend to divide them up into identifiable segments, while allowing that the process is continuous. We can ask, How does thought A lead to/cause/remind us of thought B, in the same way that we can ask, How does my action of chewing a mouthful of food lead to/cause me to have a drink? There are still causal questions involved, or at least there may be.
  • Copernicus
    360
    How does thought A lead to/cause/remind us of thought B, in the same way that we can ask, How does my action of chewing a mouthful of food lead to/cause me to have a drink?J

    Causality (necessity and response).

    Now, if you ask why the universe has causality as its founding grammar, that's a different discussion.
  • Leontiskos
    5.3k
    As T Clark allows, “It works for certain everyday events at human scale, e.g. if I push the grocery cart it moves.” I think we should see “thought-to-thought connection” as another example of an everyday event at human scale – at any rate, that’s the premise of what follows.J

    Can you give the source to the quotations you are using?

    But can we also speak of this in casual terms? Again, this seems in accord with common usage. We might say, “Thinking of Ann caused me to remember her birthday.” But perhaps this is just loose talk.J

    You have to define what you mean by a cause if this conversation is to go anywhere. If you think @T Clark has given that definition, then you need to provide the source where he does so.

    If you believe, with Google’s chat-program, that any causal connection must be physical...J

    If you disagree with the LLM's definition then you need to provide an alternative definition of "cause."

    Google’s ever-helpful chat-program – presumably reflecting some kind of cyberworld consensus – would like to straighten this out for us:J

    (Another thread where we are taking our cue from LLMs, by the way - in this case apparently without any real understanding of what one is even appealing to.)
  • Sir2u
    3.6k
    Good question. But do you mean "thoughts" understood as my W2 thoughts, or thoughts as propositions?J

    To keep this use of “thought” distinct from the propositional content of a thought, I’ll call it a “W2 thought” from now on,

    The "voice in the head" version would be what I'm calling a W2 thought.
    J

    Unheard thoughts? I think not, for purposes of this discussion. (I'm assuming you mean "unheard" metaphorically, so it translates to "thoughts I'm not aware of having.")J

    So what made you think of Ann (W2) in the first place?
  • Dawnstorm
    336
    A. I think: “I wonder how my friend Ann is doing.”

    B. I then think: “It’s her birthday soon; I must get her a present.”

    The most standard description of what’s going on here is, I believe, something like: “The first thought reminded me of the second thought,” or “When I thought of Ann, I remembered it was her birthday soon, which reminded me that I want to get her a present.”
    J

    I come from sociology rather than philosophy, so my first impulse is always two things: (a) what's the theory, and (b) how do we operationalise it? But I'm not a very systematic thinker at the outset. So here I go:

    My first thought reading this was that you went straight for the "hidden variable". As far I read you, you meant to ask whether thought A causes thought B. But you interpret thought A as "thinking of Ann". However, thought A is literally wondering how Ann is doing. You topicalise a rather specific ignorance and thereby show interest. That is I was automatically seeing "thinking of Ann" as a background process that instatiates as both A and B. Wondering how Ann is doing and her birthday are two different elements you could connect with Ann.

    That suggests we're instinctively leaning towards a different approach: (a) A --> B, or (b) A <--[Thinking of Ann]-->B, where the order of the alphabet is the order of the surface manifistation.

    You address the difference here, I think:

    I'm suggesting that "thought" can be understood in at least two ways. The "voice in the head" version would be what I'm calling a W2 thought. Unheard thoughts? I think not, for purposes of this discussion.J

    Here's the thing: I don't have an inner voice, and when I think words its formulating a thought with a background stream running to see if my word-thought expresses what I'm actually thinking. For me, "unheard thought" is core thinking and the verbalisation is surface expression there-of, at most assymptotic to the "real" thought. This is why the connection to propositions feels... strange. Propositions, for me, go top-down, while thinking is bottom-up, and verbalising a thought creats a loop of bottom-up - top-down - bottom up.... Words are externalised meaning and thought is internalised meaning. It's not quite so clear a differentiation, and verbalising a thought changes the flow of consciousness of course. But I can't easily pin down a single thought.

    So for me, in the above example there would be an ongoing Ann-stream, with "how is she" surfacing firt and then the topic of birthday "intruding" and integrating. To do this, a second stream must be present (a keep-track-of-the-date stream, maybe; or a I-recently-forgot-another-birthday stream).

    Isolating words is far easier than isolating thoughts, so propositions are helpful tools to put down an anchor so to speak, but I think it would be a mistake to conclude from a clearly demarkated proposition to a clearly demarkated thought. Words kind of externalise meaning and thereby encourage the repetition and variation of a thought-pattern. They're kind of thought attractors.

    So if you'd be excluding "unheard thoughts", I probably have little to contribute. It leads to a highly unintuitive theoretical frame work for me.
  • J
    2.2k
    So what made you think of Ann (W2) in the first place?Sir2u

    It might be any number of things -- a picture, a scent, a dream, Proust's cookie, or, of course, a previous thought. I'm not suggesting that only a previous thought can cause a current thought. The OP is asking into what might be going on when such a situation does appear to occur.

    And then there's "unheard thoughts" . . . see below.

    That is I was automatically seeing "thinking of Ann" as a background process that instatiates as both A and B. Wondering how Ann is doing and her birthday are two different elements you could connect with Ann.Dawnstorm

    Ah, I see. No, that wasn't the situation I was presenting. To be more specific: Something brings the thought of Ann to mind (see above). The "thought of Ann" might be a mental image, or her name, a memory associated with her -- I can only call upon your agreement here that something happens to which we refer when we say "All at once I thought of Ann and [now the words enter] wondered how she was doing". So this is thought A. And this, in turn, begins the process of reminding or causing which produces thought B -- I must get her a birthday present.

    I can't easily pin down a single thought. . . . So if you'd be excluding "unheard thoughts", I probably have little to contribute.Dawnstorm

    It does sound as if our mental processes are quite different, but I hope you'll stay on the thread anyway. The issue you're raising about "unheard" or background thoughts is definitely germane. I'm quite sure that some such thing goes on, just as you say (it may be part of what Nietzsche had in mind); I only hesitate to call them thoughts, preferring to reserve that term for what presents itself to awareness. But I'm happy to consider a different, broader categorization. Would you say that, in your "stream-of-Ann" thoughts, there is an element of causation that produces A, B, C, et al.? And can the surface-level thought A indeed cause thought B to rise up as well? Or is causality altogether the wrong way to think about this process?
  • Janus
    17.6k
    This takes us back to the Google chatbot’s confident statement that “causation involves a physical connection between events, while entailment is a relationship between propositions.”J

    Looking at it in terms of semantics, I'd say the connections between thoughts is associative. There are many common, that is communally shared, associations between ideas. Entailment would seem to be a stricter rule-based associative relation between ideas.

    Looking at it from a physical perspective, the semantic relations could be physically instantiated as interconnections between neural networks.
  • J
    2.2k
    Looking at it in terms of semantics, I'd say the connections between thoughts is associative. There are many common, that is communally shared, associations between ideas.Janus

    I have no problem with that but, like talk of "relationships", are we really saying much when we say that connections between thoughts are associative? What we want to know is the nature(s) of those associations. And my question here is, specifically, can these associations include causal connections?

    Looking at it from a physical perspective, the semantic relations could be physically instantiated as interconnections between neural networks.Janus

    Something like that, yes. In the OP I tried to sidestep the question of mind/brain, since it's so complicated and contentious. But it's like a fly that won't go away. Might it be the case that there is no tractable way to understand non-physical causation (if it exists) until we understand how a brain can be a mind? Could be. (Even phrasing it this way becomes controversial, of course.)
  • Sir2u
    3.6k
    It might be any number of things -- a picture, a scent, a dream, Proust's cookie, or, of course, a previous thought. I'm not suggesting that only a previous thought can cause a current thought. The OP is asking into what might be going on when such a situation does appear to occur.J

    The "thought of Ann" might be a mental image, or her name, a memory associated with her -- I can only call upon your agreement here that something happens to which we refer when we say "All at once I thought of Ann and [now the words enter] wondered how she was doing". So this is thought A. And this, in turn, begins the process of reminding or causing which produces thought B -- I must get her a birthday present.J

    The processes of smelling and recognizing a scent or image would then be the unheard thought, a trigger or as you said "a mental event (presumably grounded in brain activity)" that activates the little voice in the head (W2) thought “All at once I thought of Ann”.

    Not all thought processes are voices in our heads. When you touch something hot, the last thing you literally do is think "Shit, it's hot". The brain has already finished the processing of the information and taken the necessary actions.
  • Sir2u
    3.6k
    And my question here is, specifically, can these associations include causal connections?J

    Think of a spiders web, is there any part of it that is not connected to every other part of it? As memories are created there is a lot of information recorded about that event and are tied to it. If you later come across one of those details in other circumstances they will cause a connection to the other event.
    Imagine that you are getting your first kiss, the place that you are at, the time of day, the music you are listening to, the food you eat, and many other details get recorded as well. Depending on the actual event the emotions you feel, like getting horny, embarrassment because your hornyness is showing will be recorded as well.

    Now imagine being with your parents and the music that you heard during your first kiss starts playing. You might just get embarrassed again.
  • J
    2.2k
    If you later come across one of those details in other circumstances they will cause a connection to the other event.Sir2u

    This is the key (problematic) statement. What sort of causality is involved here? Do you mean "cause" at the level of neuronal activity? Or does one idea cause the other? If so, how? Or -- if this were a matter of strict entailment -- does the first idea necessitate the other?
  • Patterner
    1.7k
    I wish I had time to read this right now. Not for another nine hours, at least. But I have one *ahem* thought from the little I just read. I suppose it can be argued that your initial thought about Ann did not cause your second thought about her. It can also be argued that it did, but I think there's a much stronger argument that the thought "7 + 5" caused the thought
    Reveal
    12
  • J
    2.2k
    I suppose it can be argued that your initial thought about Ann did not cause your second thought about her. It can also be argued that it did, but I think there's a much stronger argument that the thought "7 + 5" caused the thought 12Patterner

    Great. That's exactly what I'd like to hear about: Can we give a sense of causality to entailment or logical equivalence?
  • T Clark
    15.5k
    I’m going to accept the idea that our common understanding and use of “cause” is meaningful, and refers to a genuine phenomenon in the world. As T Clark allows, “It works for certain everyday events at human scale, e.g. if I push the grocery cart it moves.”J

    Thanks for the call out. All of the issues that have shown up in this thread so far are exactly the reason I tried to avoid a discussion of mental cause in my previous thread. It just gets too muddled and confused and physical cause is muddled and confused enough without any help.
  • J
    2.2k
    I get it. And, in reverse, all the muddle-making issues about physical cause show up when we try to understand mental causation! The "OP format" on TPF probably just isn't expansive enough to do rigorous work on this, but each of us is trying, in our own ways, to find a tractable problem. We'll see how it goes . . .
  • Leontiskos
    5.3k
    Looking at it in terms of semantics, I'd say the connections between thoughts is associative.Janus

    Yeah, I think that is correct:

    It seems like you want to talk about how one thought can follow from another in a non-logical way (i.e. via psychological association).

    ...

    "But why did his ice-cream thought follow upon his grasshopper-thought?" "Because he associates ice cream with grasshoppers, likely because of the Grasshopper cocktail."
    Leontiskos

    -

    And my question here is, specifically, can these associations include causal connections?J

    Association has a causal component. For the example given, the association will only occur within a mind that has assigned the name "grasshopper" to both the cocktail and the insect. Such an assignation does not occur without causal experiences, and beyond this, the names themselves become entangled in the experiences via memory.

    But if you want a causal-deterministic account of association or mental thought sequencing, then you are effectively negating the possibility of mental phenomena that is qualitatively different from physical-deterministic phenomena.
  • Dawnstorm
    336
    Would you say that, in your "stream-of-Ann" thoughts, there is an element of causation that produces A, B, C, et al.? And can the surface-level thought A indeed cause thought B to rise up as well? Or is causality altogether the wrong way to think about this process?J

    Well, I used the words "externalise" above in a context like "language externalises throught". Maybe I should use the World 2 & 3 model to give you some hotch-potch ad-hoc model of my own?

    Basically, both A and B are part of the "stream of Ann", so part of the stream of Ann is also part A and B. So what you have here is a sequence A -> B, where both A and B are part of an ongoing process.

    So: some initial trigger made you "think of Ann". This is vague and unspecific; some set of neurons triggering maybe? It's pre-conscious and manifests as "How is Ann doing?" That manifestation is what you would like to call a thought. Now, if these exact words pop into your head, then you have something that persists in its form longer than anything in the actual stream. But it's made of language, which, for you to learn it, has to be a World 3 object, and once you have these words, you have soething that endures and triggers compatible World 2 thoughts. That works as communication from person to person, or as a particular form of memory from self to future self.

    For example, if Ann were a mutual acquaintance of ours, you could say "I wonder how Ann is doing," and then I would wonder, too. Inside your head, it's a similar process; you just eliminate one person and it's all yourself. But the words are cultural set-ups that you've calibrated to your word-habits. Basically:

    Thinking of Ann -> World2 thought of how Ann is doing -> Production of World3 object "I wonder how Ann is doing" which overlaps with ongoing World 2 thought -> Potential for recall of World3 object ("I wondered how Ann is doing.") and creation of World 2 thought similar to earlier thought.

    You can analytically set the boarders anywhere in the process. Is the thought "I wonder Ann is doing" viewed as a type that anyone can have? Is it the thought that's in your brain? Is it the World 3 words and its associated propostion?

    It's possible, for example, that "thinking of Ann" sets the stream in motion and some other stream (the birthday stream, the october stream, whatever) intersects and creates the World 3 sentence "Oh, right, Ann's birthday is coming up soon." And it's possible that stream initiates at roughly the same time as "how is Ann doing," but the former is more "primal" so it finishes production sooner. If that is the case, there is little causal connection. But if the production of the World 3 object somehow influences the "thinking-of-Ann-stream", it could do so in a way that kick-starts the Ann's-Birthday stream, and then there could be some causal connection (how do we differentiate between cause, influence and trigger, for starters).

    I'd also like to note that world 3 objects aren't always as fixed as words. Take the concept of "story". I've never read much of the Moby Dick book, but I've seen the film with Gregory Peck. I've read Kipling's Jungle Books and seen the Disney "adaption". To what extent do the books and films contain the same story? Does the mode of "telling" change the story? The Moby Dick story as presented in book and film is a World 3 concept, and it frames the differences between instantiations. There are more differences with the jungle books, here. You extend the scope of the term "story" to some extent. You might, for example, feel as I did that it's "not the same story anymore". But that's influenced by context: it's supposed to be an adaption, but it isn't. This flips on its head with "Kimba the White Lion" --> "Lion King", where "it's practically the same story" because the inspiration goes unnoticed. If attributed and names kept, for example, one might say "it's not the same story anymore"; i.e. create mutually exclusive sentences that on the thought-level are quite compatible if contextualised. So what is a "story"?

    If you're substituting "thought" here, you'll run into similar problems, because a thought put into words is always also a world 3 object. You're referring to propositions, here, for example. Now I think that, and that's probably controversial, that a thought you don't share and only think to yourself is also partly a world 3 object if you include the words. You certainly have a world 2 thought, too, but when looking at this from an analytic point of view there's a danger that you attribute world 3 properties to a world 2 object. For example:

    It can also be argued that it did, but I think there's a much stronger argument that the thought "7 + 5" caused the thought...Patterner

    Great. That's exactly what I'd like to hear about: Can we give a sense of causality to entailment or logical equivalence?J

    As maths, a world 3 object, entailment pertains even outside of any thought.

    Inside a thought, that particular mind must know how to do addition first. Which is why the description of a causal chain is complex.

    I think there's a danger here that the straightforward and stable entailment serves as a model for mental causation. It's not an invalid model, necessarily, but the mental processes just aren't as straightforward. (And then there's the problem that world 3 objects need to be maintained by world 2 process for them to exist, but my head's spinning already.)

    I hope I'm making sense. This is the third version of this post.
  • Patterner
    1.7k
    Great. That's exactly what I'd like to hear about: Can we give a sense of causality to entailment or logical equivalence?J
    Well, I don't know the lingo, so I'll just give my thoughts, and you can see if it's what you're after.

    I would bet a large majority of those who read my post had the thought of what I had in spoilers in their minds before they looked. If so, the only reason was that they were thinking about 7 + 5. I didn't even have to put the =, or say to add the numbers. But they thought, even if not explicitly, "I need to find the sum of those two numbers." Then they did so. Adding is thinking, and having "12" in your head means you're thinking "12". And it came about because the thought "7 + 5" was put in your head. What else could be responsible for you thinking "12"?
  • J
    2.2k
    A fascinating response. I appreciate your spending the time on it.

    There's a lot to reply to, but let me start with the important point you raise about where to place language in our model of thought. If I understand you, the W2 thought should be seen as pre-linguistic, and this is part of why it is a W2 object. Its nature is "mentalese," not linguistic or propositional. When words enter the picture, we now have a W3 object, because language is a human construction. So:
    Thinking of Ann -> World2 thought of how Ann is doing -> Production of World3 object "I wonder how Ann is doing"Dawnstorm

    Next, this W3 linguistic object may (though it needn't) "exert an influence" on the stream-of-Ann thoughts (which, to repeat, are understood as W2 objects) so as to generate a W2 thought about Ann's birthday, which gives rise to the W3 proposition "It's her birthday soon". You ask, sensibly:

    there could be some causal connection ([but] how do we differentiate between cause, influence and trigger, for starters).Dawnstorm

    I can't decide if this matters. In my OP I tried to use phrases such as "cause-like" or "influence" in addition to "cause," to show that I wasn't committed to a strict view of what a cause must be, in this context. Suppose we accept the premise -- "there could be some causal connection" -- and take it as written that we're including a whole family of verbs like "trigger," "influence," "give rise to," "generate" etc. The important point seems to be that a counter-factual explanation can be offered using any of them.

    You also raise this problem:

    Is the thought "I wonder [how] Ann is doing" viewed as a type that anyone can have? Is it the thought that's in your brain? Is it the World 3 words and its associated proposition?Dawnstorm

    In raising this, are you asking whether linguistic expressions using indexicals can be shared types? That's a sub-problem, and an interesting one; I'm not sure. But are you also asking whether the W3, linguistic thought "I wonder how Ann is doing" can ever be a W2 thought? That is, must it somehow be stripped of language before we can place it "in the brain" as a psychological or mental phenomenon? I wouldn't say so, but your model may insist on it. I'd stay closer to our common way of speaking: When I say, "This morning, I thought about how Ann is doing", I'm saying both that I had the mentalese, W2 experience we're both trying to pin down, and that I formed the thought into words. In doing so, it remained a thought, thought it's now arguably crossed over into the human-made world of linguistic artifacts.

    Actually, let me stop right here and ask whether I'm understanding you. I don't want to maunder on if I haven't grasped your basic points. (And I'll come back to your issues about how fixed a W3 object must be, and whether entailment can be fitted comfortably into this scheme.)
  • J
    2.2k
    Yes. It's hard to deny -- and why would we want to? -- that those of us who thought "12" did so because we previously thought "7 + 5". Now, as @Dawnstorm points out, for this to work we require some mental paraphernalia: recognition of numeral symbols, the concept of addition, and probably a familiarity with what to expect, at the level of writing, when two numbers are shown as joined by the addition symbol. But this only shows that the causation involved here isn't necessary or sufficient for everyone. And, as I wrote above, we needn't even insist on the term "cause". All that matters is that we can say, "If you had not shown me '7 + 5', I would not have thought '12'." That's the cause-like relation I want to explore.

    So why is any of this a problem? Isn't your straightforward description adequate?

    Here's how I would put the problem: We don't know how mental events can cause anything. We don't know if this happens by virtue of what they mean -- which I think is your suggestion -- or because of some other property. We like to conceive of an entire world of meanings "in our heads": thoughts and images and memories all influencing and generating each other. What I'm calling the logical or propositional version of this would endow the meanings/contents/propositional content of thought with causal power. The psychological version, in contrast, would call this hopelessly mysterious, and insist that the causal relations must lie elsewhere -- @Dawnstorm's "stream of thought", perhaps. And this is to ignore the physical-reduction model (as I promised I would, since I think it's wrong) which says that only brain events can cause other brain events, period, end of story -- the "meanings" are free riders of some sort.

    If I'm right that you see a clear explanatory connection between Thought A ("7 + 5") and Thought B ("12"), can you say more about the causation involved? How does A cause B? Where does such a relation occur?
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    4.2k


    Come around for the thread of Proclus' Elements in a few weeks; he's got some great ideas on this. :grin:
  • hypericin
    1.9k
    When we speak of one thought causing another, are we speaking about W2 thoughts, or about propositions?J

    Most W2, I think.

    If the former, then we need a theory about how psychological events can be causative.J

    One such is epiphenomenalism: mental events supervene on physical events, and are not reducible to them, but themselves have no causative power. Here, the apparent causation is illusory.

    I prefer: mental events supervene on physical events because they are two perspectives on the same thing. Both are equally causative because both refer to the same reality.

    Causation between billiard balls is not illusory. What is "really" happening is not electrostatic forces between atoms transmititting momentum. Rather, both the macro view (the billiard ball of everyday life) and the micro view are different perspectives one can take on the same thing. One perspective is not privileged over the other.

    And so, mental events cause mental events, and brain events cause brain events: both are true, depending on how the event is framed.

    How the very same thing can be framed as a brain event or a mental event is just the hard problem.
  • hypericin
    1.9k
    When we speak of one thought causing another, are we speaking about W2 thoughts, or about propositions?J

    Most W2, I think.

    If the former, then we need a theory about how psychological events can be causative.J

    One such is epiphenomenalism: mental events supervene on physical events, and are not reducible to them, but themselves have no causative power. Here, the apparent causation is illusory.

    I prefer: mental events supervene on physical events because they are two perspectives on the same thing. Both are equally causative because both refer to the same reality.

    Causation between billiard balls is not illusory. What is "really" happening is not electrostatic forces between atoms transmititting momentum. Rather, both the macro view (the billiard ball of everyday life) and the micro view are different perspectives one can take on the same thing. One perspective is not privileged over the other.

    And so, mental events cause mental events, and brain events cause brain events: both are true, depending on how the event is framed.

    How the very same thing can be framed as a brain event or a mental event is just the hard problem.
  • J
    2.2k
    Gee, coming attractions! Thanks. :smile:
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.