Philosophim
T Clark
The ACLU champions transgender people’s right to be themselves. We’re fighting discrimination in employment, housing, and public places, including restrooms. We’re working to make sure trans people get the health care they need and we're challenging obstacles to changing the gender marker on identification documents and obtaining legal name changes. We’re fighting to protect the rights and safety of transgender people in prison, jail, and detention facilities as well as the right of trans and gender nonconforming students to be treated with respect at school. Finally, we’re working to secure the rights of transgender parents.
Outlander
Philosophim
I think it’s a better summary than the claptrap baloney you’ve put together. — T Clark
We’re fighting discrimination in employment, housing, and public places, including restrooms. We’re working to make sure trans people get the health care they need and we're challenging obstacles to changing the gender marker on identification documents and obtaining legal name changes. We’re fighting to protect the rights and safety of transgender people in prison, jail, and detention facilities as well as the right of trans and gender nonconforming students to be treated with respect at school. Finally, we’re working to secure the rights of transgender parents.
Philosophim
90%+ of people alive today would not be alive, nor have ever reproduced, were it not for violence — Outlander
In short, yes, vulnerable people have every right you have, and much more. — Outlander
ProtagoranSocratist
Philosophim
i think you are making this one way too complicated: transgendered people are people, so if we are to talk about "human rights", than transgendered rights must also be human rights. — ProtagoranSocratist
However, I'm confused how anyone can have "a right", because wouldn't that entail an ability to do something without anyone else's capability to take away that ability? — ProtagoranSocratist
People are always talking about "the right to free speech", but people only have this right on the surface: the supreme court of the united states has decided repeatedly that speech is not an inviolable right, but only grants you a right if it feels appropriate and relevant to some legal case either you or another party brought to court. — ProtagoranSocratist
ProtagoranSocratist
If the rights they are asking for fit in and do not contradict human rights, then yes, they are. But in the OP its clear that some of the things being asked as rights conflict with human rights. Therefore these are not human rights. — Philosophim
The above rights I've examined are within the context of trans gendered individuals claim that the requests they are making are human rights, which are generally based on the context of one individual not trying to violate the rights of another, or the agreed upon standard outcome when certain human rights do conflict. — Philosophim
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
RogueAI
We’re working to make sure trans people get the health care
Philosophim
I'm really sick of this over-use of "they" i am seeing in talks about transgendered people here. It's very similar to how people in the U.S. talking about "the liberal agenda". Conflating a bunch of different things so they seem unified doesn't help clarify a philosophical discussion. Maybe you could use sources: tell me where "the transgendered people" are united in their demands. Give us a more concrete "they" rather than a nebulous one. — ProtagoranSocratist
what if "rights" themselves are not valid? If you're not willing to be more critical of rights, then i don't think you will get very far in this discussion, as the government wants rights to be inviolable, but all the evidence points to this not being the case — ProtagoranSocratist
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
These are seen as "rights", that the legal system shall not do any of these things in reference to rulings in a criminal trial. However, a lot of people are in disagreement about what constitutes a cruel and unusual punishment. — ProtagoranSocratist
So if rights only apply in specific circumstances, and state authorities have the liberty to disagree about who has rights to what, how can rights be viewed as valid or meaningful in a philosophical sense? It seems to me they are only a legal mechanism, and nobody whatsoever is guaranteed rights. — ProtagoranSocratist
Philosophim
↪T Clark I don't think it's a good idea to do mastectomies on 14 year olds. Do you? — RogueAI
Outlander
RogueAI, can we say on topic please? What do you think about the OP's claims on the trans gender rights listed? — Philosophim
Moliere
Philosophim
All humans have a right to live and pursue happiness.
Trans humans are humans.
Therefore, trans humans have a right to live and pursue happiness. — Moliere
It's only because people see trans people as freaks that this sad line of questioning seems plausible to anyone. — Moliere
It's especially odd given that most of the time this line of questioning is from a cis perspective: as in, the answer will have no effect on the life of the asker. But it will effect trans people. — Moliere
RogueAI
↪T Clark I don't think it's a good idea to do mastectomies on 14 year olds. Do you?
— RogueAI
RogueAI, can we say on topic please? What do you think about the OP's claims on the trans gender rights listed? — Philosophim
We’re working to make sure trans people get the health care
Moliere
from my point its looking at what they are asking for as rights and verifying that everything they are asking for is a human right. The OP goes through and agrees that some of these things are rights, while others of these are not human rights. Were there any you agreed or disagreed with? — Philosophim
Moliere
RogueAI
↪RogueAI No, I don't think so.
I think the story you linked is a tragedy.
I don't think this is unique to trans individuals, though. Healthcare decisions are not easy in any other situation that might call for mastectomy. If she wins that's fine by me: I understand wanting recompense for being mistreated.
I don't think her case the usual, though. — Moliere
Moliere
should trans children have their breasts removed? A 17 year old? Maybe I can see that. A 14 year old? No. — RogueAI
ProtagoranSocratist
Fair question. I posted a link in the OP, and TClark posted a link to generally what the transgender community is asking for in terms of rights. I am not talking about an individual, but the spokespeople who are asking for trans rights as laws that are documented and well known. That is why I put this under the political category and not ethics. Can an individual trans gendered person have a different view on what they want? Absolutely. But this is addressing the people pushing for lawful change who are claiming this is what all trans gender people deserve. — Philosophim
Does everyone agree that if that bar is agreed upon, a person should not be administered cruel and unusual punishment? I would say yes — Philosophim
In a rights based society, the government ultimately should answer to and serve the people it governs. Thus it is up to the citizens to uphold rights through laws and culture. Does a country and its citizens have to do this? No. People don't have to do anything. — Philosophim
RogueAI
I'd prefer to let the people in the situation to decide with their doctor, and if a bad decision is made then the person can pursue legal recourse. Like in your story. — Moliere
Moliere
Some harms can't be undone through legal recourse. So then, what do we as a society decide to do about trans children desiring mastectomies? Should doctors be allowed to do it at all or should it be off limits until the person is an adult? This seems like a human rights issue that's unique to trans individuals, no? — RogueAI
Philosophim
You can go on communicating how you'd like to, yet i would said "this website phrases transgender and transexual rights as such", and then discussing the rights exactly on the websites terms. Being clear and direct makes things easier to read. — ProtagoranSocratist
In this context, one would argue that with cruel and unusual punishments, that the cruelty itself sets a poor example and is morally wrong. If people accept that premise, wouldn't it then be easy to argue that any prison sentence whatsoever is cruel punishment? There's no "everyone agrees", yet "cruel punishment" is redundant because punishment is supposed to be cruel instead of rewarding. — ProtagoranSocratist
So wouldn't you then agree with me when i say that rights are totally meaningless outside of their usage within a legal framework? — ProtagoranSocratist
ProtagoranSocratist
Not at all. Rights are the framework upon which we should want laws written. Even in a society without some authority figure over your head, rationally we would want to treat each other with the respect that we believe each person should be given for merely being a person. Laws are simply an authorized way to enforce behavior. Rights are a rational conclusion of what behavior we believe is appropriate towards others in the world. — Philosophim
Philosophim
So then, what do we as a society decide to do about trans children desiring mastectomies? Should doctors be allowed to do it at all or should it be off limits until the person is an adult? This seems like a human rights issue that's unique to trans individuals, no? — RogueAI
Philosophim
but earlier you said that people don't have to do anything, so fallowing from that logic, how would rights make any sense on a practical day-to-day basis? Are you saying that rights are only higher ideals that we can imperfectly conform to? — ProtagoranSocratist
ProtagoranSocratist
Lets pull it out of the abstract and look at your own life. Lets say you stumble upon a person in a lone allyway. They mean you no harm but you notice they have a gold chain around their neck. Looking around, you realize you could get away with stealing it, the other person does not suspect you have a knife, and you could quickly end it. Do you need a law to tell you that murdering them for their gold chain is wrong? Or have you thought through it any particular time and concluded "That would be wrong".?
Rights are the algebra of ethics. X + 1 = 2 "Stealing from another innocent person is wrong" is the circumstance, the number, while the abstract is something like "X is the right way to treat a person". X is where we put the rights like "Letting them speak their mind, respecting property, not murdering them". We can of course go about our lives without thinking at all about what or why we do things, but if you've thought about them at all, you've essentially been considering rights.
Rights are therefore a form of morality. There is an idea that we should or should not treat people in fundamental ways. This does not require a law, it only requires a mind. — Philosophim
Now if a person is trying to avoid bullying or disrespect, they should avoid poor grammar and unclear communication. — Philosophim
Stealing from another innocent person is wrong — Philosophim
Outlander
Where do you get the idea I have seen anything like that in my life? "Oh! Gold chain, me stupid, i'll kill person with gold chain in alleyway because we alone and nobody catch me! Me shmeagal, i want ring!" — ProtagoranSocratist
Philosophim
Wow! What a HORRIBLY irrelevant and convoluted mess! Where do you get the idea I have seen anything like that in my life? "Oh! Gold chain, me stupid, i'll kill person with gold chain in alleyway because we alone and nobody catch me! Me shmeagal, i want ring!" — ProtagoranSocratist
Also, I'm pretty sure you are making up this "rights as part of morality algebra" stuff as well. — ProtagoranSocratist
The constitution (which is where all rights are derived under american law...) — ProtagoranSocratist
Ciceronianus
Philosophim
A "right" which isn't a legal right (i.e. enforceable and subject to protection under the law, the violation of which is compensable) is nothing more than something which it's maintained should be a legal right, or should be considered as a legal right although it isn't one (which I think makes no sense). — Ciceronianus
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