• Philosophim
    3.1k
    “Trans gender rights are human rights”. An often heard tautological statement, but is every request that the trans community makes a ‘human right’? I'm going to examine a summary of the rights that transgendered organizations are asking for and see if these fit within the definition of human rights vs exceptions and/or desires of the community. I will be taking an American view on this, as my knowledge of non-American countries is lacking. Feel free to educate me on different views on human rights for different countries to see if I have missed anything.

    First, a reference for sex and gender according to modern day gender theory.

    Sex – the objective biological expression of the reproductive role of a species. Males and females. Example: Males are statistically taller on average than females.

    Gender – a subjective social expectation of non-biological expressed behavior based on one’s sex. Example: Males should wear pants, females should wear dresses.

    Gender identity – A person’s explicit decision to act in accordance with a gender of a particular sex. If a person acts in alignment with the gender of their own sex at the exclusion of the other, this is called cis gender identity. If they act in alignment with the opposite sex to the exclusion of their own, this is called trans gender identity. This is cultural behavior.

    Sex identity – An objective classification based on bodily reality, not subjective cultural behavior. This cannot be chosen. A cis sexual is someone who accepts their sex identity. A trans sexual is someone who does not accept their sexual identity and works to change their physical body to be as close as possible to the opposite sex.

    To be clear, sex identity and gender identity are distinct. A trans sexual identity may not be trans gendered, and a trans gendered identity may not be trans sexual.


    Onto rights.

    Human Rights - Human rights are rights inherent to all human beings, regardless of race, sex, nationality, ethnicity, language, religion, or any other status.

    We can specify this further with personal and group rights.

    Personal rights - The idea that a human being should be free from law for certain behaviors and actions as a human being. These include freedom of speech, the right to privacy, and the right to defend oneself if attacked. Personal rights are considered the most fundamental, as they are what we consider innate to being human. Any attempt to control that is an attempt to control the fundamental nature of a humans thoughts, feelings, or bodily life.

    Group Rights– Also known as collective rights, are rights held by a group rather than an individual. “Trans rights” is short for trans gender rights. “Human rights” include everyone without exclusion.

    The types of rights that trans gender people are asking for are ‘gender identity’ rights. Cis gender rights concern ‘rights that a member of a particular sex identity has to act as the gender identity associated with that sex identity’ Trans gender rights concern ‘rights that a sex identity has to act as the gender identity associated with the opposite sex’.

    It is important that we contrast this with trans sexual rights, and note that trans gender rights are not the same this to avoid confusion. Cis sexual rights concern the right of the sexual identity of one’s sex. Trans sexual rights concern the right to the sexual identity of the opposite of one’s own sex.

    For the claim “Trans rights are human rights” to be true, the request of these rights must be equal in abstract to what any other human should be able to claim as a right. Further, such right claims must not conflict with other resolved conflicts within human rights. For example, “The right to protest vs the rights or private property.” People have the right to protest, but not protest by destroying private property such as setting houses on fire or robbing people. Trans rights do not demand this, but if they claimed, “We want the right to protest and set buildings on fire”, this would not be a human right.

    For a reference of claims to trans gender rights, I went here https://www.humanrightscareers.com/issues/trans-rights-101-definition-examples-significance/#:~:text=The%20transgender%20rights%20movement%20calls,right%20to%20life%20and%20safety . as a reference. Let me know in the comments if you have a better reference. I’ll summarize them as follows:

    1. The right to change identity documents that are used to mark sex identity, to gender identity. For example, changing a driver’s license from male to female based on gender, not sex.

    2. The right to enter bathrooms and sex divided spaces based on gender identity instead of sex identity

    3. The right to being able to dress cross gender and have pronouns be used to reference gender identity instead of sex identity in public areas like schools, and private businesses like work.

    4. Healthcare that services a person’s desire to align their body with their gender identity instead of sex identity without barriers. To further not be refused normal medical treatment because a person is transgendered, and to be referred to by their gender identity and not sex identity.

    5. The right to life and safety.


    I’ll start with the claim which is obviously a human right. ‘The right to life and safety’. Is this a right that transgender individuals do not have? In some parts of the world, this may not be the case. In America? Yes. As far as I know of there is no law which permits violence against transgender individuals. Definitely a human right and I don’t think anyone can reasonably deny this.

    Going up the list we have #4, which I’ll call “Equitable health care”. I do not see how asking for the same healthcare rights and options as everyone else isn’t a right. Is it a right to demand that doctors provide medicine and surgery to alter your body to match your chosen gender identity?

    First, I am aware that health care is often not considered a personal or group right, and could be open to debate. To avoid losing focus, we will assume that the transgender community is not asking for anything more than the equal opportunities in access and ability to pay for healthcare that other people have in the country they reside in. The right to equal opportunity of service in what is offered in one’s country is a human right, so this also fits.

    However, “The right to healthcare that align’s their body with their gender identity without barriers” needs closer examination. First, this is a trans sexual right request, not a trans gender right. A trans gender person does not necessarily want to alter their body or need to have their sex identity changed. Despite this clearly being a trans sexual rights request, its on the list so it will be examined. Looking at similar cases for equal opportunity, do people have access to medicine to alter their bodies because they desire to look different? We see in the West that cosmetic procedures are done all the time, though on the person’s dime. As such, I believe it is a right for people to be able to, of their own free will and money, alter their body as a trans sexual. Bodily autonomy is a human right.

    Should this be funded by insurance or the medical system? If other cosmetic surgeries are included, then yes. If not, then no.

    I will note this is not addressing the treatment of gender dysphoria. The trans argument that I am aware of today is that the desire to transition is a perfectly normal and acceptable desire of a person and does not require one to have gender dysphoria. However, if it is considered by some parties that gender dysphoria is a mental health issue that needs treatment, then I would argue people with gender dysphoria have a right to treatment of this mental health issue like any other mental health issue. Does that mean transition is always the solution? No. That solution should be determined through careful analysis of a health care professional that causes the patient the least harm backed by objective science, not the desires or demands of the individual. Scientifically backed treatment which places barriers is responsible medical care, and the right to not unnecessarily harm another individual would trump a rights request of ‘no medical barries”. Every medical treatment has barriers, so this is simply equal opportunity of service.

    If the request to get trans sexual treatment is cosmetic, that seems like the right of the individual to pay for if they choose to. If a trans sexual assignment is considered the correct medical procedure to treat gender dysphoria, then it should be the right of the patient to have this. But there is no right of the patient to push a doctor to diagnose gender dysphoria, or lower any barriers to get this treatment easier. That should only be determined by doctors and valid science.

    Should a person be refused other general medical treatment because they are trans gendered? Absolutely not. This is just a basic equal opportunity of services right.


    Points 1, 2, and 3 are where I believe issues start to arise. I can sum it up as follows: “Transgender people want the right to not only have legally enforced gender recognition, but that this gender recognition gives them the same right and privileges of the sex identity of the gender they enact” Here is where I have a difficult time seeing how these requests are human rights.

    First, sex is not gender. Thus, without careful explanation as to why gender enactment should equate to sex differentiated right and privileges, this seems an unreasonable claim that should only be considered in trans sexual cases. Perhaps in the case of a trans sexual individual, this is a right. But in the case of a trans gender individual, there is no logical reason to have gender identity overrule sex identity and deny the rights accorded to sex identity.

    Second, enforcing people to refer to you by the gender you take on instead of your sex is forced speech. If a person decides to use pronouns as gender descriptors, that is their choice. But if someone decides to use pronouns as sex descriptors, this is also their choice. Mandating pronoun usage by a person’s individual subjective gender would be in contradiction of the recognized human right to free speech.

    Third, gender is a subjective category that can vary from individual and groups. As such it can rarely be objectively captured in law. If a person does not subjectively recognize another person’s personal and subjective gender identity, how could such a law force a person to recognize it? Making a law that enforces a subjective viewpoint that may change from person to person is not only irresponsible, it opens enforcement based on subjective viewpoints which is a violation of the human right to equal treatment by the law. Enforcing a subjective opinion on another person would further be a violation of a person’s right to think for themselves. Thus, forced pronoun usage is a violation of the human rights.

    Fourth, gender does not shape sex, sex shapes gender. Without sex, gender would not exist. Without gender, sex would still exist. Any law which would prioritize the legitimacy of a consequent over the base which leads to its consequent is illogical. If A -> B B cannot lead to ~A. If gender is a consequence of sex, taking on the gender of the other sex does not mean your own sex has changed, and by consequent, should not give one access to laws and spaces based on objective sex identities.


    WIth this, we can examine the specific points that are claimed as human rights and evaluate them.

    1. There is no right to prioritize the legal enforcement of gender identity over sex for identification purposes. The subjective can and never should be forced over the objective. Forcing someone to have a subjective viewpoint is an attempt to control another individual because of a difference of opinion, not matters of fact. Further, gender rights are not sex rights, therefore they hold no sway over sex based rights.

    2. There is no right to prioritize the legal enforcement of gender identity in regards to sex separated spaces if those sex separated spaces are sex rights. If a space is separated due to biological differences, and not merely non-biological cultural expectations, there is no valid reason why a subjective cultural expectation should hold any sway in decisions of objective biological reality. So places like bathrooms, sports where sex differences matter, and places that serve different biological needs do not need to allow people who do not fit these biological requirements into their places based on a person’s subjective gender.

    3. This one is the most interesting and might have some sway to it. The pronoun enforcement of gender identity over sex identity is of course not a right because of the points mentioned above. But enforcement of dress policy IS a rare case of an attempt to legally enforce gender. The idea that only a female can wear a dress is a purely cultural expectation, and not based on biology.

    Generally dress code is used to convey professionalism and avoid casual or revealing clothing that would distract at work. If a male comes in with a professional dress that is not revealing or provacative, it seems the male has not done anything objectively wrong, merely something culturally discouraged.

    In legal matters where gender is explicitly written as enforced, I could see an argument that this is a violation of people’s rights to modest presentation, at least in public places. In matters of business law, there is a question as to whether they get to shape the business gender. As gender is subjective, would a group’s subjective view of gender have a legal right over an individual’s subjective group of gender? Should gender even be recognized as something legal at that point, or is this something culture should handle without government interference? This one I think deserves debate, but beyond the scope of this original post.

    As such, arguing that the right to wear clothing at a business subjectively associated with the opposite sex, might indeed be a right worth fighting for. As for private life, an individual absolutely has the right to act in any gendered manner they wish.


    So, are trans gender rights human rights? Some of them are. Some of them are not. Feel free to disagree in the comments.
  • T Clark
    15.5k
    This is from the ACLU page on transgender rights. I think it’s a better summary than the claptrap baloney you’ve put together.

    The ACLU champions transgender people’s right to be themselves. We’re fighting discrimination in employment, housing, and public places, including restrooms. We’re working to make sure trans people get the health care they need and we're challenging obstacles to changing the gender marker on identification documents and obtaining legal name changes. We’re fighting to protect the rights and safety of transgender people in prison, jail, and detention facilities as well as the right of trans and gender nonconforming students to be treated with respect at school. Finally, we’re working to secure the rights of transgender parents.

    Here’s the link

    https://www.aclu.org/issues/lgbtq-rights/transgender-rights
  • Outlander
    2.9k
    90%+ of people alive today would not be alive, nor have ever reproduced, were it not for violence (what mankind pitifully attempts to separate from severe mental illness, lack of worth to reproduce, specifically mass hysteria by giving it a word i.e. "war") and most importantly, enslavement and oppression of women.

    You can't even begin to understand anything in regards to this topic or its tangents until you really process what that means and what we're dealing with. What's really going on. Once you do, it all makes sense. Including as to what the solution is.

    It's a result of ostracism. In the animal kingdom, animals that do not fit in are ostracized, and often have a 90%+ mortality rate. You will notice the average guy of average height and appearance makes up about 0.1% of people who believe they are transgender enough to perform permanent and irreversible surgery. While ALL the rest are usually small, skinny, frail, awkward, maybe stutter, perhaps might be a minority in that specific community, don't fit in, were bullied, or were otherwise traumatized, often sexually.

    It's literally a form of legal and state-sanctioned eugenics they're flashing in our face all while pretending they're doing the opposite and protecting the vulnerable.

    It takes a deeper understanding before you can really see what's going on. Literally every great invention, every great movie, story, every great piece of art was created by intelligent people, who tend to be on the smaller/frailer side physically. All those who tend to be larger, generally aren't able to do anything a machine can't. They are easily replaceable, for they serve no unique function. The more humanity progresses the more one side sees themselves as pack mules and animals whose only purpose and possible contribution to society is to lift things for those who actually improve the quality of life for us all i.e. the intelligent. They've become mired in jealousy and hatred, but they do have one thing on their side. Primal lust, or simply put, fear and violence. And that's just powerful enough to find a hapless mate, prolonging their existence just ever so slightly and long enough to do the damage they're doing.

    In short, yes, vulnerable people have every right you have, and much more. But that's a distraction. These people causing this must be found and given the highest form of justice available. All they had to do was go quietly. To live their last days in the utmost comfort and dignity (as provided by the intelligent people who they're so vindictively targeting), a quality of mercy they themselves never could offer and so ultimately don't even deserve. But a fool and a demi-human will always be exactly that. It was predictable, really. What a shame it's come to this.

    Civilization has been around for over 10,000 years since the domestication of cattle and crop. The first sex reassignment surgery was (barely) able to be performed barely 100 years ago. You couldn't come up with a better example of a solution in search of a (non-existent) problem.

    All war is based on deception. Remember that.

    You asked for the truth. I only hope you can handle it.
  • Philosophim
    3.1k
    I think it’s a better summary than the claptrap baloney you’ve put together.T Clark

    I didn't think the site I referenced was claptrap. That being said, I asked for and welcome alternatives. We can discuss nicely.

    We’re fighting discrimination in employment, housing, and public places, including restrooms. We’re working to make sure trans people get the health care they need and we're challenging obstacles to changing the gender marker on identification documents and obtaining legal name changes. We’re fighting to protect the rights and safety of transgender people in prison, jail, and detention facilities as well as the right of trans and gender nonconforming students to be treated with respect at school. Finally, we’re working to secure the rights of transgender parents.

    Beyond transgender parents I don't think this includes anything I didn't address in the OP. Did you read it in full TClark? Which specific points that I've made do you disagree with?
  • Philosophim
    3.1k
    90%+ of people alive today would not be alive, nor have ever reproduced, were it not for violenceOutlander

    Outlander I'm not seeing this as relevant to the OP. I appreciate your contribution, but unless it ties into the OP in some way, this is off topic.

    In short, yes, vulnerable people have every right you have, and much more.Outlander

    Of course! But are the trans gender rights that trans gender people are asking for concurrent with human rights?
  • ProtagoranSocratist
    100
    i think you are making this one way too complicated: transgendered people are people, so if we are to talk about "human rights", than transgendered rights must also be human rights. "Transgendered person" is merely a sub-category of human.

    However, I'm confused how anyone can have "a right", because wouldn't that entail an ability to do something without anyone else's capability to take away that ability? People are always talking about "the right to free speech", but people only have this right on the surface: the supreme court of the united states has decided repeatedly that speech is not an inviolable right, but only grants you a right if it feels appropriate and relevant to some legal case either you or another party brought to court.
  • Philosophim
    3.1k
    i think you are making this one way too complicated: transgendered people are people, so if we are to talk about "human rights", than transgendered rights must also be human rights.ProtagoranSocratist

    If the rights they are asking for fit in and do not contradict human rights, then yes, they are. But in the OP its clear that some of the things being asked as rights conflict with human rights. Therefore these are not human rights.

    However, I'm confused how anyone can have "a right", because wouldn't that entail an ability to do something without anyone else's capability to take away that ability?ProtagoranSocratist

    That is the general underpinning of rights. Rights are fundamental to being alive. At the most basic level, the right to life. The government should not have the power to simply say, "We're going to bomb your house for fun." People don't have the right to just kill you in the street whenever they like.

    People are always talking about "the right to free speech", but people only have this right on the surface: the supreme court of the united states has decided repeatedly that speech is not an inviolable right, but only grants you a right if it feels appropriate and relevant to some legal case either you or another party brought to court.ProtagoranSocratist

    I think a more clear example is that rights often come into conflict based on context. Rights are generally contextual, not absolute. Yes, you have the right to life unless you are trying to murder another human being. Yes you have the right to free speech unless that speech is attempting to violate someone's right to privacy like breaking into your house to give them a piece of your mind.

    The above rights I've examined are within the context of trans gendered individuals claim that the requests they are making are human rights, which are generally based on the context of one individual not trying to violate the rights of another, or the agreed upon standard outcome when certain human rights do conflict.
  • ProtagoranSocratist
    100
    If the rights they are asking for fit in and do not contradict human rights, then yes, they are. But in the OP its clear that some of the things being asked as rights conflict with human rights. Therefore these are not human rights.Philosophim

    I'm really sick of this over-use of "they" i am seeing in talks about transgendered people here. It's very similar to how people in the U.S. talking about "the liberal agenda". Conflating a bunch of different things so they seem unified doesn't help clarify a philosophical discussion. Maybe you could use sources: tell me where "the transgendered people" are united in their demands. Give us a more concrete "they" rather than a nebulous one.

    The above rights I've examined are within the context of trans gendered individuals claim that the requests they are making are human rights, which are generally based on the context of one individual not trying to violate the rights of another, or the agreed upon standard outcome when certain human rights do conflict.Philosophim

    what if "rights" themselves are not valid? If you're not willing to be more critical of rights, then i don't think you will get very far in this discussion, as the government wants rights to be inviolable, but all the evidence points to this not being the case. Let me give you a very clear example.

    Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

    These are seen as "rights", that the legal system shall not do any of these things in reference to rulings in a criminal trial. However, a lot of people are in disagreement about what constitutes a cruel and unusual punishment. Some say the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment, yet i think life in prison fits that description more so than an execution (depending on factors). A lot of people have been discussing the cruelty of solitary confinement over the years, and they have plenty of evidence to support their claims.

    So if rights only apply in specific circumstances, and state authorities have the liberty to disagree about who has rights to what, how can rights be viewed as valid or meaningful in a philosophical sense? It seems to me they are only a legal mechanism, and nobody whatsoever is guaranteed rights.
  • RogueAI
    3.4k
    We’re working to make sure trans people get the health care

    I don't think it's a good idea to do mastectomies on 14 year olds. Do you?

    https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/ucla-student-sues-california-doctors-says-was-fast-tracked-transgender-rcna183815
  • Philosophim
    3.1k
    I'm really sick of this over-use of "they" i am seeing in talks about transgendered people here. It's very similar to how people in the U.S. talking about "the liberal agenda". Conflating a bunch of different things so they seem unified doesn't help clarify a philosophical discussion. Maybe you could use sources: tell me where "the transgendered people" are united in their demands. Give us a more concrete "they" rather than a nebulous one.ProtagoranSocratist

    Fair question. I posted a link in the OP, and TClark posted a link to generally what the transgender community is asking for in terms of rights. I am not talking about an individual, but the spokespeople who are asking for trans rights as laws that are documented and well known. That is why I put this under the political category and not ethics. Can an individual trans gendered person have a different view on what they want? Absolutely. But this is addressing the people pushing for lawful change who are claiming this is what all trans gender people deserve.

    what if "rights" themselves are not valid? If you're not willing to be more critical of rights, then i don't think you will get very far in this discussion, as the government wants rights to be inviolable, but all the evidence points to this not being the caseProtagoranSocratist

    Of course, rights are open for discussion.

    Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

    These are seen as "rights", that the legal system shall not do any of these things in reference to rulings in a criminal trial. However, a lot of people are in disagreement about what constitutes a cruel and unusual punishment.
    ProtagoranSocratist

    Correct. But a question for you. Does everyone agree that if that bar is agreed upon, a person should not be administered cruel and unusual punishment? I would say yes. So at that point we're not arguing that cruel and unusual punishment should not be permitted to people, just the level that entails. Generally we can agree on that level using different measures such as science, and where absent, a democratic vote that can be changed over time as new information comes in.

    So if rights only apply in specific circumstances, and state authorities have the liberty to disagree about who has rights to what, how can rights be viewed as valid or meaningful in a philosophical sense? It seems to me they are only a legal mechanism, and nobody whatsoever is guaranteed rights.ProtagoranSocratist

    Legal rights are not gauranteed. Nothing is. Human rights are reasoned ideals that we should all aspire to uphold. You can have a country that denies human rights, or have a country that has human rights. Which is preferable and more prosperous to its people? Are governments formed to enhance people's lives, or control them for the ends of a few individuals?

    In a rights based society, the government ultimately should answer to and serve the people it governs. Thus it is up to the citizens to uphold rights through laws and culture. Does a country and its citizens have to do this? No. People don't have to do anything. But is it a rational approach to ensuring a prosperous society with opportunity? Yes.
  • Philosophim
    3.1k
    ↪T Clark I don't think it's a good idea to do mastectomies on 14 year olds. Do you?RogueAI

    RogueAI, can we say on topic please? What do you think about the OP's claims on the trans gender rights listed?
  • Outlander
    2.9k
    RogueAI, can we say on topic please? What do you think about the OP's claims on the trans gender rights listed?Philosophim

    Right but be fair. A person is a human and they have human rights. They don't suddenly vanish because they think or adopt a lifestyle or even a religion that fundamentally demands or in their own mind redefines what they are.

    We all have the same laws. People invented false religions (cults) in an attempt to quash the ruling laws of a given society (in some instances they succeeded, temporarily) but in the end these so-called victories were only short-lived, doing nothing in the end but causing great and unneeded suffering unto those (and thankfully, usually, only those who perpetrated them) and everything pretty much returned back to normal, granted, sure, the same rights you always had to believe anything you want anyway, provided you work and conform and above all follow the law basically never went anyway.

    In extreme relation to the topic, I could believe, and be convinced wholly I am a dog. But that doesn't give me a right to shit on your lawn, to assault and batter you by licking your face because I'm "happy to see you", to avoid a noise complaint or charge of disturbing the peace/public nuisance because I'm making loud noise or barking, or basically sexually assault you (or your leg), without facing the same legal consequence as LITERALLY ANYONE ELSE.

    You can be whatever you want to be in your own head. But it needs to literally not affect any law-abiding citizen in any way whatsoever unless they desire it to. That is to say, you don't get a special set of legal rules because you want them. Only handicapped or differently-abled people get that right. Anything else is a travesty of justice.That's just not how anything works.
  • Moliere
    6.3k
    All humans have a right to live and pursue happiness.
    Trans humans are humans.
    Therefore, trans humans have a right to live and pursue happiness.

    There's no "extra right" just because a person is black. It's not that black people are asking for a new, special right in being treated with equality.

    So it goes with trans health issues.

    It's only because people see trans people as freaks that this sad line of questioning seems plausible to anyone.

    It's especially odd given that most of the time this line of questioning is from a cis perspective: as in, the answer will have no effect on the life of the asker. But it will effect trans people.
  • Philosophim
    3.1k
    All humans have a right to live and pursue happiness.
    Trans humans are humans.
    Therefore, trans humans have a right to live and pursue happiness.
    Moliere

    Agreed, no argument against that here.

    It's only because people see trans people as freaks that this sad line of questioning seems plausible to anyone.Moliere

    Perhaps others see trans individuals as freaks, from my point its looking at what they are asking for as rights and verifying that everything they are asking for is a human right. The OP goes through and agrees that some of these things are rights, while others of these are not human rights. Were there any you agreed or disagreed with?

    It's especially odd given that most of the time this line of questioning is from a cis perspective: as in, the answer will have no effect on the life of the asker. But it will effect trans people.Moliere

    Given that the examination is about human rights, and human rights affect all people including trans people, I'm not sure what's being missed in the OP. If you would like to point out the missed perspective, it would be helpful to the discussion.
  • RogueAI
    3.4k
    ↪T Clark I don't think it's a good idea to do mastectomies on 14 year olds. Do you?
    — RogueAI

    RogueAI, can we say on topic please? What do you think about the OP's claims on the trans gender rights listed?
    Philosophim

    We’re working to make sure trans people get the health care

    Isn't it a human right for a child to not have her breasts cut off? Isn't that a uniquely trans gender issue?
  • Moliere
    6.3k
    from my point its looking at what they are asking for as rights and verifying that everything they are asking for is a human right. The OP goes through and agrees that some of these things are rights, while others of these are not human rights. Were there any you agreed or disagreed with?Philosophim

    I mostly agreed with the basics -- but where I disagree is in analyzing such-and-such as a right.

    No one claims a right to being gendered correctly. That's the sort of thing decided at the social level rather than the legal level.

    It's that part that I'm uncomfortable with. It looks like you're saying trans people want the power of the law to punish others for misgendering them -- that's not a real thing, in my experience.
  • Moliere
    6.3k
    No, I don't think so.

    I think the story you linked is a tragedy.

    I don't think this is unique to trans individuals, though. Healthcare decisions are not easy in any other situation that might call for mastectomy. If she wins that's fine by me: I understand wanting recompense for being mistreated.

    I don't think her case the usual, though.
  • RogueAI
    3.4k
    ↪RogueAI No, I don't think so.

    I think the story you linked is a tragedy.

    I don't think this is unique to trans individuals, though. Healthcare decisions are not easy in any other situation that might call for mastectomy. If she wins that's fine by me: I understand wanting recompense for being mistreated.

    I don't think her case the usual, though.
    Moliere

    But we can make it unique to trans individuals in that: should trans children have their breasts removed? A 17 year old? Maybe I can see that. A 14 year old? No.
  • Moliere
    6.3k
    should trans children have their breasts removed? A 17 year old? Maybe I can see that. A 14 year old? No.RogueAI

    Should children have any -ectomy's ? Is that something we can decide by law?

    I'd prefer to let the people in the situation to decide with their doctor, and if a bad decision is made then the person can pursue legal recourse. Like in your story.

    I'm generally uncomfortable with making a rule to fit an exception. Usually, the rule is very right for a particular circumstance, but rides over the particulars of other cases.
  • ProtagoranSocratist
    100
    Fair question. I posted a link in the OP, and TClark posted a link to generally what the transgender community is asking for in terms of rights. I am not talking about an individual, but the spokespeople who are asking for trans rights as laws that are documented and well known. That is why I put this under the political category and not ethics. Can an individual trans gendered person have a different view on what they want? Absolutely. But this is addressing the people pushing for lawful change who are claiming this is what all trans gender people deserve.Philosophim

    Okay, thanks for telling me about the link. However, it is still just one .com website, it's not some transgendered lobbying group that's asking for specific changes in the current laws. You can go on communicating how you'd like to, yet i would said "this website phrases transgender and transexual rights as such", and then discussing the rights exactly on the websites terms. Being clear and direct makes things easier to read.

    Does everyone agree that if that bar is agreed upon, a person should not be administered cruel and unusual punishment? I would say yesPhilosophim

    In this context, one would argue that with cruel and unusual punishments, that the cruelty itself sets a poor example and is morally wrong. If people accept that premise, wouldn't it then be easy to argue that any prison sentence whatsoever is cruel punishment? There's no "everyone agrees", yet "cruel punishment" is redundant because punishment is supposed to be cruel instead of rewarding.

    In a rights based society, the government ultimately should answer to and serve the people it governs. Thus it is up to the citizens to uphold rights through laws and culture. Does a country and its citizens have to do this? No. People don't have to do anything.Philosophim

    So wouldn't you then agree with me when i say that rights are totally meaningless outside of their usage within a legal framework?
  • RogueAI
    3.4k
    I'd prefer to let the people in the situation to decide with their doctor, and if a bad decision is made then the person can pursue legal recourse. Like in your story.Moliere

    I would generally agree, but a lawsuit won't get your breasts reattached. Some harms can't be undone through legal recourse. So then, what do we as a society decide to do about trans children desiring mastectomies? Should doctors be allowed to do it at all or should it be off limits until the person is an adult? This seems like a human rights issue that's unique to trans individuals, no?
  • Moliere
    6.3k
    Some harms can't be undone through legal recourse. So then, what do we as a society decide to do about trans children desiring mastectomies? Should doctors be allowed to do it at all or should it be off limits until the person is an adult? This seems like a human rights issue that's unique to trans individuals, no?RogueAI

    It does. Especially given the scenario.

    There I have pause. But mostly because I'm not trans.

    I'd like it if it were possible that trans individuals had more say on it than myself. Not sure how to do that in a practical way, but it is the sort of thing I think towards.

    Even then, though -- given that we're human I imagine bad decisions will be made. Sometimes a person was sexually abused in a way that made them express what looks like trans-desires, but were really desires to not be sexually abused.

    I'm not sure that we can decide such cases in law.

    Ultimately she ought not to have been abused to the point of being confused, right? But that's such a unique circumstance that I don't think something like "rights" or "law" would address it...
  • Philosophim
    3.1k
    You can go on communicating how you'd like to, yet i would said "this website phrases transgender and transexual rights as such", and then discussing the rights exactly on the websites terms. Being clear and direct makes things easier to read.ProtagoranSocratist

    Then my mistake, I'll try to be more clear next time.
    ..
    In this context, one would argue that with cruel and unusual punishments, that the cruelty itself sets a poor example and is morally wrong. If people accept that premise, wouldn't it then be easy to argue that any prison sentence whatsoever is cruel punishment? There's no "everyone agrees", yet "cruel punishment" is redundant because punishment is supposed to be cruel instead of rewarding.ProtagoranSocratist

    Generally punishment as an ideal's purpose is to protect innocent people and reform those who do wrong. That is why punishment is supposed to fit the crime. Some punishments are fines. Others have light sentencing. If I stole a penny from a person, going to jail for 50 years wouldn't really protect innocent people from harm, nor would it give a chance for the person to reform. Thus we would call that 'cruel and unusual punishment'. Essentially cruelty is punishment designed merely to hurt another person without any desire to reform or protect others.

    So wouldn't you then agree with me when i say that rights are totally meaningless outside of their usage within a legal framework?ProtagoranSocratist

    Not at all. Rights are the framework upon which we should want laws written. Even in a society without some authority figure over your head, rationally we would want to treat each other with the respect that we believe each person should be given for merely being a person. Laws are simply an authorized way to enforce behavior. Rights are a rational conclusion of what behavior we believe is appropriate towards others in the world.
  • ProtagoranSocratist
    100
    Not at all. Rights are the framework upon which we should want laws written. Even in a society without some authority figure over your head, rationally we would want to treat each other with the respect that we believe each person should be given for merely being a person. Laws are simply an authorized way to enforce behavior. Rights are a rational conclusion of what behavior we believe is appropriate towards others in the world.Philosophim

    but earlier you said that people don't have to do anything, so fallowing from that logic, how would rights make any sense on a practical day-to-day basis? Are you saying that rights are only higher ideals that we can imperfectly conform to?
  • Philosophim
    3.1k
    So then, what do we as a society decide to do about trans children desiring mastectomies? Should doctors be allowed to do it at all or should it be off limits until the person is an adult? This seems like a human rights issue that's unique to trans individuals, no?RogueAI

    Correct. I addressed the idea of medical care as a right in the OP. For this we can detail further. There are two situations in which a person can decide to modify their body. Cosmetic purposes, and medical purposes. A cosmetic purpose is because one desires to change their body to be a certain way. A medical purpose is to correct or cure an issue.

    An example is breast implants surgery vs breast reconstruction surgery. The first is a cosmetic desire, the second is a medical correction due to damage. In general, cosmetic procedures are funded by the individual and are entirely the free choice of the individual. Medical procedures sometimes have funding by the state and can be freely chosen or rejected by the individual in question. However, an individual cannot request a medical procedure freely. They must ask a professional to diagnose if the treatment is one that would solve the issue.

    In the case of cosmetic choices, in general we don't allow an individual to choose large alterations to their body without a term called 'consent'. Consent is only able to be given by people who society has established have the mental capability, knowledge, and awareness of the consequences to make a choice. A 14 year old asking to remove their breasts does not have the ability to give consent.

    However, in the case of medical care, some procedures or treatments may be offered to minorities if there is ample medical evidence that it would likely treat a problem. If, note I say if, the medical community had clear science to demonstrate that removing the breasts of a 14 year old child would cause a greater benefit to the person than the harm of leaving them, there is justification in offering such a treatment. Even then, generally the child would not have the ability to consent, but the parents.

    I can go into why the current medical evidence is strongly against transition surgeries and hormone treatment, but that may not be needed if the above points adequately answers the question. The point is, if it is the case that breast removal is a scientifically recommended treatment that cures the patient of an even more harmful ill, then it is a viable treatment to offer for parents to consent to. Any cosmetic treatment is beyond both the parent's and child's ability to consent.
  • Philosophim
    3.1k
    but earlier you said that people don't have to do anything, so fallowing from that logic, how would rights make any sense on a practical day-to-day basis? Are you saying that rights are only higher ideals that we can imperfectly conform to?ProtagoranSocratist

    Lets pull it out of the abstract and look at your own life. Lets say you stumble upon a person in a lone allyway. They mean you no harm but you notice they have a gold chain around their neck. Looking around, you realize you could get away with stealing it, the other person does not suspect you have a knife, and you could quickly end it. Do you need a law to tell you that murdering them for their gold chain is wrong? Or have you thought through it any particular time and concluded "That would be wrong".?

    Rights are the algebra of ethics. X + 1 = 2 "Stealing from another innocent person is wrong" is the circumstance, the number, while the abstract is something like "X is the right way to treat a person". X is where we put the rights like "Letting them speak their mind, respecting property, not murdering them". We can of course go about our lives without thinking at all about what or why we do things, but if you've thought about them at all, you've essentially been considering rights.

    Rights are therefore a form of morality. There is an idea that we should or should not treat people in fundamental ways. This does not require a law, it only requires a mind.
  • ProtagoranSocratist
    100
    Lets pull it out of the abstract and look at your own life. Lets say you stumble upon a person in a lone allyway. They mean you no harm but you notice they have a gold chain around their neck. Looking around, you realize you could get away with stealing it, the other person does not suspect you have a knife, and you could quickly end it. Do you need a law to tell you that murdering them for their gold chain is wrong? Or have you thought through it any particular time and concluded "That would be wrong".?

    Rights are the algebra of ethics. X + 1 = 2 "Stealing from another innocent person is wrong" is the circumstance, the number, while the abstract is something like "X is the right way to treat a person". X is where we put the rights like "Letting them speak their mind, respecting property, not murdering them". We can of course go about our lives without thinking at all about what or why we do things, but if you've thought about them at all, you've essentially been considering rights.

    Rights are therefore a form of morality. There is an idea that we should or should not treat people in fundamental ways. This does not require a law, it only requires a mind.
    Philosophim

    Wow! What a HORRIBLY irrelevant and convoluted mess! Where do you get the idea I have seen anything like that in my life? "Oh! Gold chain, me stupid, i'll kill person with gold chain in alleyway because we alone and nobody catch me! Me shmeagal, i want ring!"

    Also, I'm pretty sure you are making up this "rights as part of morality algebra" stuff as well. It's not even coherent from a logical or historical perspective. You made this comment in your other thread:

    Now if a person is trying to avoid bullying or disrespect, they should avoid poor grammar and unclear communication.Philosophim

    I now know that i should not expect to have a clear and coherent conversation with you.

    Stealing from another innocent person is wrongPhilosophim

    The constitution (which is where all rights are derived under american law...) says absolutely nothing about innocent persons, because the people who wrote the document knew that guilt an innocence were matters of local states/tribunals etc., the rights granted were only supposed to be a guarantee against a tyrannical government, and it really doesn't take a whole lot of thinking to understand that they haven't been very effective.
  • Outlander
    2.9k
    Where do you get the idea I have seen anything like that in my life? "Oh! Gold chain, me stupid, i'll kill person with gold chain in alleyway because we alone and nobody catch me! Me shmeagal, i want ring!"ProtagoranSocratist

    I mean, to be fair, there's a reason horror movies are classified as horror and not fantasy. Meaning, these things do happen. All day, everyday. I can tell from your disposition as well as the dismissal of his meta-point, you clearly know where you're going to get your next meal from. Not everyone has that luxury. I strongly recommend you re-read up on the Socratic method so as to better understand (even flawed) arguments other people might make.
  • Philosophim
    3.1k
    Wow! What a HORRIBLY irrelevant and convoluted mess! Where do you get the idea I have seen anything like that in my life? "Oh! Gold chain, me stupid, i'll kill person with gold chain in alleyway because we alone and nobody catch me! Me shmeagal, i want ring!"ProtagoranSocratist

    This is an example of a thought experiment to give a more explicit example out an abstract notion. If you're not going to take the conversation seriously, I'm not going to take your points seriously either.

    Also, I'm pretty sure you are making up this "rights as part of morality algebra" stuff as well.ProtagoranSocratist

    Yes, I created the example as a means of viewing rights as a general abstract vs specific situation. If the analogy didn't make sense, just point it out. Not everything I try works. :)

    The constitution (which is where all rights are derived under american law...)ProtagoranSocratist

    What you're talking about is a political right in "The bill of Rights" The constitution did not create human rights. Philosophers and thinkers have discussed human rights for centuries. The bill of rights was an attempt to enshrine political protections against an overbearing federal government.

    I don't mind further discussing the issue but more focus on issues and less focus on mockery please.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k
    It seems to me that using the language of "rights" outside of the law constitutes a form of wishful thinking.

    A "right" which isn't a legal right (i.e. enforceable and subject to protection under the law, the violation of which is compensable) is nothing more than something which it's maintained should be a legal right, or should be considered as a legal right although it isn't one (which I think makes no sense).

    So, I think the appropriate question to ask, if one wants to do so, is: Should what's being considered be legal rights?
  • Philosophim
    3.1k
    A "right" which isn't a legal right (i.e. enforceable and subject to protection under the law, the violation of which is compensable) is nothing more than something which it's maintained should be a legal right, or should be considered as a legal right although it isn't one (which I think makes no sense).Ciceronianus

    A human right is not a legal right. But our legal rights should support human rights. The purpose of the OP is to ascertain whether the rights that the trans community wants are human rights, or not human rights. Based on the OP's breakdown, what do you think?
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