• Millard J Melnyk
    62
    We had an excellent discussion on the question of whether all beliefs are irrational. I learned a ton, but it convinced me that I need to take the question step by step.

    So, at this point, I have a very clear idea what I mean by "belief". I like the metaphor of a nut.

    A nut is not its shell, and it's not its kernel: it's both of them in a consistent, common configuration.

    The kernel is the content: whatever idea is thought to be true together with our sense/impression/conviction/conclusion (or whatever speaks to you) that it is more surely true than just some stuff that could be true or false.

    The shell is what protects the precious kernel. The preciousness of the kernel consists of its truth and (usually) other more subjective values that mean something to us beyond merely knowing the truth.

    Nut = precious stuff protected by a barrier.

    Belief = content thought true protected by a barrier.

    What kind of beliefs do not fit that structure?

    If you can think of one or some, what makes them "beliefs" and not something else?
  • Banno
    29.3k
    Not bad. You probably believe that there are bacteria in the grunge under your left little toe nail, but hadn't considered it until now. Is that "precious stuff protected by a barrier"?

    Not the grunge, the belief.

    At it's most basic, having a belief is just holding that some statement is true.

    What your analogy perhaps gets right is that this is not a simple binary relation, but that the statement is the content of the belief. So Lous Lane can believe that Clark Kent wears glasses without thereby believing the Superman wears glasses.

    The idea that a belief is precious is a step too far.
  • Philosophim
    3.2k
    The shell is what protects the precious kernel. The preciousness of the kernel consists of its truth and (usually) other more subjective values that mean something to us beyond merely knowing the truth.Millard J Melnyk

    Perhaps it would be better if we said "Type of belief".

    There are a few words that are generic, or cover a wide variety of contexts. "Tree" is one. When I say 'Tree" what do you envision? Generic terms are great for generic and flexible contexts, but they are terrible for specific substantive discussions. "All trees" start to break down when you realize the variety in what can be a tree.

    "Belief" is a generic term. "I believe its going to rain today." I go outside and it doesn't rain. "Oh well" I say. Contrast this with a person who's belief is so strong that the fact that it doesn't rain makes them question everything they ever thought about reality.

    The 'shell' seems to imply a biased belief. I think most of our beliefs are assumptions that we have no problem being wrong about. A biased belief is something that we want to be true more then the reality of its truth. Its not the belief per say, its the bias that creates that shell around the belief.

    Any belief which does not contain bias, is largely not protected. If there is nothing that internally makes you want to deny the truth for a biased outlook, you go "Oh, ok" when you learn a truth that counters your belief. Does this describe what you were thinking of?
  • Millard J Melnyk
    62


    Perhaps it would be better if we said "Type of belief".Philosophim

    Well, that's what we'd end up with, wouldn't we, if we found beliefs that didn't fit the nut structure?

    It's obvious that almost everyone wants to vindicate "belief", but you've got to let that go to participate -- otherwise that intention (vindication) is itself a bias.

    The 'shell' seems to imply a biased belief.Philosophim

    At first I disagreed that that the shell involved or represented bias, but now I think you're onto something. The bias results from forming an attachment to the kernel (which is not the belief -- the whole nut is the belief) beyond what our confidence in it being true can support, so we feel the need for extra "protection".

    But to say that the shell implies a biased belief is to posit "belief" as something capable of being unbiased, and it doesn't fit the nut structure I presented, which is fine, but merely positing it is non-responsive to the question of the OP.

    Give me a couple of examples of non-biased beliefs -- which if the shell signifies bias, would need to be unshelled, then, which then would mean it's not a whole nut, wouldn't it?
  • Philosophim
    3.2k
    It's obvious that almost everyone wants to vindicate "belief", but you've got to let that go to participate -- otherwise that intention (vindication) is itself a bias.Millard J Melnyk

    I don't think I'm trying to vindicate 'belief', just note that there are several different types and/or degrees of belief.

    At first I disagreed that that the shell involved or represented bias, but now I think you're onto something. The bias results from forming an attachment to the kernel (which is not the belief -- the whole nut is the belief) beyond what our confidence in it being true can support, so we feel the need for extra "protection".Millard J Melnyk

    And you may be right that 'bias' isn't a great word to describe the insistent attachment you're describing. Maybe a 'limiting' belief? 'Prejudiced' belief? 'Insistent' belief? The point is the type of belief you seem to be describing is one that a person doesn't want to let go of. The belief becomes more valuable to the individual then what a belief is supposed to be, which is a guessed assertion of what is.

    Give me a couple of examples of non-biased beliefs -- which if the shell signifies bias, would need to be unshelled, then, which then would mean it's not a whole nut, wouldn't it?Millard J Melnyk

    So if you are defining a belief as a nut, and a belief requires 'bias', then that's how you've defined it. If you are insistent that you will accept no other definition, then there's nothing to debate. If however you're interested in another possible definition for a belief by exploring other options, then we could consider that a belief does not need a 'shell'.

    A few examples of 'unbiased' beliefs. I'm about to open the door to my garage and believe the light is off. I open the door and I find its on. I don't get angry, insist that the light must be on, or even elicit surprise. "Eh, I guess they were off then." Its a belief that has no need of protection once its found to be wrong.

    Lets see a few others. I already mentioned, "I believe it will rain today, but it didn't. I believe 2+2=5. "Oh, it doesn't? Oh, its four, and that's why, cool." Really I think many of us go through our day believing the state of reality is X, we find out its Y, and we don't give it a second thought. No need to protect the belief from reality, we accept reality will violate many of our beliefs.
  • unenlightened
    10k
    At it's most basic, having a belief is just holding that some statement is true.Banno

    I guess you believe that statement is true, and I would almost agree, except that I have never to my recollection articulated the statement or assented to it. It seems to me that many, perhaps most beliefs are not articulated in thought or language. I don't have to have the thought that I can get to my feet from this chair and walk out of the room, I don't have to have the belief, if belief is always 'in the statement', I just need the habitual act. Just as the cat has no access to statements and beliefs about them, but manages similarly to get up and leave the room. To act as if p, is to believe p without thinking 'p'. And I think that should explain how "bias" comes in too; bias is also an unarticulated tendency to act as if p; eg. 'I'm not a racist, but...'
  • Banno
    29.3k
    I entirely agree. We will do much better if we look to the use of "belief" rather than stipulate definitions. Or nuts.
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