Isn't this one of those things that—while seemingly deep—actually has no effect at all? Like, what if there really is a Firmament above Earth? Are you reasonably, in your lifetime, ever going to be rich enough or permitted by a government to leave the atmosphere and colonize another planet? No? Then why worry about it? What does any of it matter? "Oh it's just such a profound difference between what I thought was reality versus what it actually is!" Oh please. Don't give me that. No it's not. This is basically the same thing as the "monster under the bed that disappears every time you check but only for as long as you're checking" argument. What if your actually the legitimate heir to the throne of England? No one will believe you. And thus, nothing will come of it. So, a non-issue remains exactly that. A non-issue. Save for those who have an abundance of such, I'd wager. :smirk:

Anglo-American philosophy has been stranded for some time in an attempted pivot away from Cartesian dualism. The OP is pestering the issue anew.

You could probably find a forum focused on welding if the OP question seems like a waste of your time. :grin:

And because you can't disprove it to yourself, I can't persuade you to reject it. — frank

Solipsism as usually understood is not something that can be verified or falsified empirically. It’s metaphysics. It’s something you can pretend to believe because it makes figuring things out easier.

…This is because argumentation has as it's goal a meeting of the minds.

This state of affairs shows that mental states are enjoyed in isolation. By this I don't mean they're private in the Wittgensteinian sense, but rather that there appears to be clear boundaries between what I'll call minds. — frank

Just because I cannot experience what you experience directly does not mean there isn’t a connection. You are right though, what connection there is is not clear or direct.

Solipsism as usually understood is not something that can be verified or falsified empirically. It’s metaphysics. It’s something you can pretend to believe because it makes figuring things out easier. — T Clark

If you're up for it, I'd like to try to persuade you that solipsism is wrong. I just need for you to play devil's advocate and defend it. Ok?

It matters - greatly. There is a huge and mighty choice between solipsism and idealism and choosing to dip your feet into the real world.

If you're up for it, I'd like to try to persuade you that solipsism is wrong. I just need for you to play devil's advocate and defend it. Ok? — frank

Let’s take a shot at it.

Just because I cannot experience what you experience directly does not mean there isn’t a connection. You are right though, what connection there is is not clear or direct. — T Clark

The connection is the verification of certain rules which must apply or not apply. If this verification were merely private, it would be empty. Rule making by definition is public.

If language were truly solipsistic it would be rpoqi3 u4r[p 09aWDDAJKDHL AKjhdliJKA HLUHLIUHLIE UFGNZ<DMN C,uweldioq

Anglo-American philosophy has been stranded for some time in an attempted pivot away from Cartesian dualism. The OP is pestering the issue anew.

You could probably find a forum focused on welding if the OP question seems like a waste of your time. :grin: — frank

I find most people who become entrapped in the belief that "nothing is real" that is to say "other people aren't real" do not appreciate the philosophical depths of true solipsism and are simply struggling with something quite non-philosophical and dangerous to themselves and those around them, is all.

It's a fine topic. For the few whom it actually applies to.

There is a huge and mighty choice between solipsism and idealism and choosing to dip your feet into the real world. — Colo Millz

This seems to disregard the main tenets of solipsism. It's not a "choice." It's literally the real world. That is to say, what you, or to your credit, any normal person would consider "dipping [their] feet into the real world" is doing the exact opposite. It's derived from a tale in Greek mythology (or perhaps the mythology was derived from an actual worldview) where a mortal is damned to live an eternity alone, all while thinking he's in a world full of innumerable other persons, thus making it an ever more vindictive punishment than if he was perceptively alone and sure of his or her fate. Again, it's a line of thought best avoided altogether. Particularly for those susceptible to the wills and minds of others.

Also, @frank this is what I'm talking about. Most people who believe "other people aren't real" (or sure, the deeper tenet that is, nothing except myself and my thoughts can be "proven" as real) really don't understand anything about the deeper philosophy, only the immediate descriptor (or in my view, symptom).

Searle's tongue was in his cheek: whoever "disproves everybody else's solipsism" presupposes that s/he is not a solipsist. :smirk:

It's not a "choice." It's literally the real world. — Outlander

Yes. It is bound to be what we receive, all right. It is nothing to do with choice.

But we can nevertheless choose to receive - or not - certain facts.

One fact is that of rule-following.

That fact means that I cannot check, given the data of 104987098upeoih f mn , lkjhpojhoj hpao hpoiAHPO certain subjective elements - if I check only subjective elements that means that statement remains meaningless.

If i follow a rule, it has to be public - by definition. That is what a rule is.

Let’s take a shot at it. — T Clark

Ok thanks! Shot number 1:

Doesn't your solipsistic view conflict with your everyday behavior? For instance, you talk to me without knowing what I'm going to say next. How could that behavior fit with solipsism?

Searle's tongue was in his cheek: whoever "disproves everybody else's solipsism" presupposes that s/he is not a solipsist. :smirk: — 180 Proof

Does it? How so?

Doesn't your solipsistic view conflict with your everyday behavior? For instance, you talk to me without knowing what I'm going to say next. How could that behavior fit with solipsism? — frank

Your existence might be an hallucination, a dream, an illusion, a brain aneurysm, psychosis, my imagination. Maybe I got lonely. I stole the following from a post I made many years ago.

One of the Hindu gods was sitting around, lonely. For company, he made himself forget he was god, and split himself into many parts. Maybe I’m God. I have this image of god behind the stage in a puppet theater that includes everything. He plays all the parts, speaks all the parts.

I’m not tossing this out just to be difficult. If I am the only thing that exists, it’s doubtful I would take any doubts I had about the existence of a real world outside myself seriously. Why would my lonely, isolated reality behave the way you think it should here in this purported reality.

The connection is the verification of certain rules which must apply or not apply. If this verification were merely private, it would be empty. Rule making by definition is public. — Colo Millz

I’m not sure whether the problem is with @frank’s comment or my response… As I think about it more, I think it was my response that was incorrect. See my response to @frank’s response immediately above this one.

That same image came to me once: of God with finger puppets, doing a puppet show for herself. Bloody puppet show. :scream:

So your answer is that everything is you, but parts of you are not available to consciousness right now?

So your answer is that everything is you, but parts of you are no available to consciousness right now? — frank

Sure. It might not even be possible for them to become conscious. Who knows how my isolated super brain might work.

Who knows how my isolated super brain might work. — T Clark

Surely some part of you knows how it works? Your personal Lord of Illusion?

Are you familiar with Kripke's argument that meaning can't arise from rule following?

Surely some part of you knows how it works? Your personal Lord of Illusion? — frank

I have some idea how my mind works in this, our purported reality. But that knowledge is based on my experience and understanding that my mind is connected with an outside world and other people.

Surely some part of you knows how it works? Your personal Lord of Illusion? — frank

What would be going on in your mind if you had been cut off from all physical and social experience since you were born.