During the intrauterine period a testosterone surge masculinizes the fetal brain, whereas the absence of such a surge results in a feminine brain. As sexual differentiation of the brain takes place at a much later stage in development than sexual differentiation of the genitals, these two processes can be influenced independently of each other.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0091302211000252?utm_source=chatgpt.com — Questioner

Please do better than chatgpt again. You need to make sure to include sexual orientation in your findings. To my knowledge, most of your papers are describing homosexuality formation, not gender identity.

"Thus, accounting for individual differences in sexual orientation, the transgender groups showed lower,
sex-atypical FA specifically in the right IFOF and left ILF. In all other tracts, FA values of the transgender groups became sex-typical after accounting for sexual orientation (see for comparison Supplementary Results when Kinsey scores were not co-varied)."
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8.pdf

Another general site with more studies demonstrating the brain science is still very much not settled. https://www.transgendertrend.com/brain-research/

HeM = Heterosexual Male
MtF-TR = Male to female transgender (post hormone therapy which is known to alter the brain)

"Like HeM, MtF-TR displayed larger GM volumes than HeW in the cerebellum and lingual gyrus and smaller GM and WM volumes in the precentral gyrus. Both male groups had smaller hippocampal volumes than HeW. As in HeM, but not HeW, the right cerebral hemisphere and thalamus volume was in MtF-TR lager than the left. None of these measures differed between HeM and MtF-TR. MtF-TR displayed also singular features and differed from both control groups by having reduced thalamus and putamen volumes and elevated GM volumes in the right insular and inferior frontal cortex and an area covering the right angular gyrus.The present data do not support the notion that brains of MtF-TR are feminized. The observed changes in MtF-TR bring attention to the networks inferred in processing of body perception."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21467211/

What is consistent between these papers is after sexual orientation is taken into account that at most the difference appears to be in the area in which a person process their own body. In other words, a misprocessing or misinterpretation of their body, not a case of a female or male brain in a person's body. This may not be innate either, but something developed. The jury is still very out on anything final at this time.

And Questioner, you still haven't indicated why gender itself isn't just prejudice, or why elevating it over sex isn't sexism. Go back to the OP again if you need to.

Please do better than chatgpt again. — Philosophim

I cited papers, not Chatgpt

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8.pdf — Philosophim

I went to this paper, and the first sentence literally read:

Both transgenderism and homosexuality are facets of human biology, believed to derive from different
sexual differentiation of the brain.

Another general site with more studies demonstrating the brain science is still very much not settled. https://www.transgendertrend.com/brain-research/ — Philosophim

This is not a scientific site, but a site with an agenda.

A couple of the claims they make:

"scientists have found no separate innate ‘gender’ area of the brain which is fixed at birth." - No sh*t - that has never been claimed. Please re-read my cites.

"there is no 100% ‘male’ or ‘female’ brain" - again, no-one has ever claimed this

"In reality male and female brains do not look very different from each other." - the valid research does not look at "what brains look like" - but how they function

So, I would advice some critical reading on your part.

HeM = Heterosexual Male
MtF-TR = Male to female transgender (post hormone therapy which is known to alter the brain)

"Like HeM, MtF-TR displayed larger GM volumes than HeW in the cerebellum and lingual gyrus and smaller GM and WM volumes in the precentral gyrus. Both male groups had smaller hippocampal volumes than HeW. As in HeM, but not HeW, the right cerebral hemisphere and thalamus volume was in MtF-TR lager than the left. None of these measures differed between HeM and MtF-TR. MtF-TR displayed also singular features and differed from both control groups by having reduced thalamus and putamen volumes and elevated GM volumes in the right insular and inferior frontal cortex and an area covering the right angular gyrus.The present data do not support the notion that brains of MtF-TR are feminized. The observed changes in MtF-TR bring attention to the networks inferred in processing of body perception." — Philosophim

That study is from 2011 and used MRI. There is more recent research that uses fMRI and contradicts those findings.

Overall our neuroimaging results suggest that the basic visuospatial abilities are associated with different activations pattern of cortical visual areas depending on the sex assigned at birth and gender identity.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9010387/

Taken together, these four structural MRI studies provide preliminary evidence that regional cortical volumes can be modulated by gender attributes, especially in the frontal lobe.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811922008539

Females had greater GMV in several areas including the thalamus, postcentral gyrus, triangular part of inferior frontal gyrus, orbital part of middle frontal gyrus and medial superior frontal gyrus in both hemispheres, middle occipital gyrus and middle cingulate gyrus in the left hemisphere, and the inferior parietal lobule and caudate in the right hemisphere, and bilateral cerebellum. Males had greater GMV than females only in the right inferior occipital gyrus.

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/human-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2020.00244/full

Our stDNN model accurately differentiated male and female brains, demonstrating consistently high cross-validation accuracy (>90%), replicability, and generalizability across multisession data from the same individuals and three independent cohorts (N ~ 1,500 young adults aged 20 to 35).

https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.2310012121

So - the question that remains is - why are you so fixed against the notion that gender might be determined in utero?

Please do better than chatgpt again.
— Philosophim

I cited papers, not Chatgpt — Questioner

Your source has https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0091302211000252?utm_source=chatgpt.com <-

You need to be reading your own papers please, not typing into chatGPT and citing things. Do your own research, ChatGPT is not yet a good source of research.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8.pdf
— Philosophim

I went to this paper, and the first sentence literally read:

Both transgenderism and homosexuality are facets of human biology, believed to derive from different
sexual differentiation of the brain. — Questioner

Yes, and read my quote from the paper and findings.

Another general site with more studies demonstrating the brain science is still very much not settled. https://www.transgendertrend.com/brain-research/
— Philosophim

This is not a scientific site, but a site with an agenda. — Questioner

Then should I ignore any site which would compile studies for trans in the brain? Should I just tell you, "You have an agenda, therefore I will ignore everything you say?" The site has citations to several articles, its one of many things to read. The real enemy is "I will not read or listen to you because you have an agenda". We need to talk to each other and listen. That's the real triumph of humanity and how we help people.

The point of the site is to let you know that currently there is no settled science on the trans gender and the brain. There are some common findings at this moment, but many conflicting papers and scientific points of view. I have also mentioned this several times in this discussion. I've been claiming certain things that I've read, but also noted things are still in flux.

"scientists have found no separate innate ‘gender’ area of the brain which is fixed at birth." - No sh*t - that has never been claimed. Please re-read my cites. — Questioner

Relax. I didn't cite that specific line so you can assumed I didn't mean to consider it. It was a broad area for more reading.

"In reality male and female brains do not look very different from each other." - the valid research does not look at "what brains look like" - but how they function — Questioner

The point being there is no real evidence of transgender individuals having a brain that is at odds with their sex.

That study is from 2011 and used MRI. There is more recent research that uses fMRI and contradicts those findings.

Overall our neuroimaging results suggest that the basic visuospatial abilities are associated with different activations pattern of cortical visual areas depending on the sex assigned at birth and gender identity.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9010387/ — Questioner

This study did not counter the 2011 study because it missed a vital point. It did not separate people by sexual orientation which was shown to be key for the brain differences.

Taken together, these four structural MRI studies provide preliminary evidence that regional cortical volumes can be modulated by gender attributes, especially in the frontal lobe.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811922008539 — Questioner

I do not have access to this article to read it. Again, I would need to see if they separate by sexual orientation, and if they had the same conclusion I noted above:

What is consistent between these papers is after sexual orientation is taken into account that at most the difference appears to be in the area in which a person process their own body. In other words, a misprocessing or misinterpretation of their body, not a case of a female or male brain in a person's body. This may not be innate either, but something developed. — Philosophim

the prefrontal cortex is where this is located, so it may be the same conclusion. You'll have to check and let me know if you could please.


"There is a wide range of evidence for gender differences in behavioral profiles as well as in brain structure and function (Sacher et al., 2013; Ruigrok et al., 2014; Gur and Gur, 2017). Behaviorally, males are shown to perform superiorly in some domains including motor and visuospatial processing, whereas females have an advantage in terms of verbal skills and emotional memory. There is an increasing interest in studying the brain mechanisms underlying these behavioral differences between genders. For example, there is evidence showing that larger gray matter volume (GMV) in occipital lobe was correlated with better visual function in males and larger hippocampal gyrus was correlated with better memory performance in females (Giedd et al., 2012)."

Females had greater GMV in several areas including the thalamus, postcentral gyrus, triangular part of inferior frontal gyrus, orbital part of middle frontal gyrus and medial superior frontal gyrus in both hemispheres, middle occipital gyrus and middle cingulate gyrus in the left hemisphere, and the inferior parietal lobule and caudate in the right hemisphere, and bilateral cerebellum. Males had greater GMV than females only in the right inferior occipital gyrus.

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/human-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2020.00244/full — Questioner

This is not a gender study, this is a sex differences study. We have to be careful to not accidently conflate the wrong meaning of gender in the discussion. We are using gender as the sociological concept, not a synonym for sex. Sex expectations are biological. Remember that gender is "Women should wear top hats." If we could find a brain section that correlated with this sociological belief, then we could demonstrate gender in the brain.

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/human-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2020.00244/full

Our stDNN model accurately differentiated male and female brains, demonstrating consistently high cross-validation accuracy (>90%), replicability, and generalizability across multisession data from the same individuals and three independent cohorts (N ~ 1,500 young adults aged 20 to 35). — Questioner

Again, this is a sex differences evaluation, not a gender evaluation of the brain.

So - the question that remains is - why are you so fixed against the notion that gender might be determined in utero? — Questioner

And I could easily ask "Why are you so fixated on the notion that gender might be determined in utero?" That's not a discussion point, that's an accusation and attack. Lets not do that as this has been a pleasant conversation so far. :)

Its not a fixation, its so far the science that I see. The problem is that most of the evidence about in uteror changes are about sexual orientation, not gender. We have to be careful with the terms we're using. Sex - biology. Gender - sociology Sexual orientation - what sex you' want to sleep with

The science that I've seen that separates the brains of people by sexual orientation reveals that what you are noting is about sexual orientation, not trans gender. Trans gender brains of heterosexual people do not show any evidence of feminized brains, only homosexual men do. Do you understand how important that is if that's true? We're not trying to prove a point, we're trying to figure out what's most true. If it is the case that the only brain structure we find when taking into account sexual orientation, is a common area in the neo cortex that processes the ability for people to identify themselves, we can isolate trans genderism to that point. If its simply a misunderstanding of oneself, that can be helped. Just like a person with poor spatial awareness can improve by practice, training and new methods could be established. Do you understand the hell trans people go through when they first get gender dysphoria? The permanent drugs? Surgeries? What if we could isolate it to a misunderstanding and train the person to simply have a better understanding of their body? We cannot simply look at one aspect, we must look at multiple. I am very well aware of your side of the ideological isle, I'm hoping you'll see that there a lot of unanswered questions and issues if you take that side only, and there's much more than that out there.

And of course, that may not be it either. The science is still very much in flux and there's much more to study and learn. What you may not understand is that I don't have an agenda. I'm exploring every angle on this, and if there were certain hard truths found, I would embrace those.

And again, to not get off topic on the OP, you still have not demonstrated why gender is not prejudice, and sexism when taken as being more important in law and culture than sex. While all that you are posting is interesting and a fantastic explore, if you're not addressing that point of the OP, it still stands.

Admiring and wanting the body of the opposite sex for yourself is an entirely different subject. — Philosophim

Okay, gotcha.

sex expectations as markers for correct sex identification are usually extremely accurate and easy to identify — Philosophim

Even for prepubescent children?

I'm not sure I agree even for adults. What are the specific "markers" you are thinking of?

Gender is always about sex. It is the expectation for how a sex should act. — Philosophim

Okay.

Anytime you think gender should shape anything sex related, you've elevated it over sex. — Philosophim

But what happens if people say that an institution should consider gender rather than sex? What if they say, "I am not saying gender should shape something that is sex-related. I am saying that gender should shape something that is gender-related. I think this institution should turn on gender, not sex."

Your source has https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0091302211000252?utm_source=chatgpt.com <-

You need to be reading your own papers please, not typing into chatGPT and citing things. — Philosophim

That just means that he asked ChatGPT to do his homework for him, and it gave him that paper. The paper itself is not generated by ChatGPT.

I cited papers, not Chatgpt
— Questioner

Your source has https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0091302211000252?utm_source=chatgpt.com <-

You need to be reading your own papers please, not typing into chatGPT and citing things. Do your own research, ChatGPT is not yet a good source of research. — Philosophim

there's no difference between using Chatgpt as a search engine and using Google as a search engine

I quoted the papers, not Chatgpt

The site has citations to several articles, its one of many things to read. The real enemy is "I will not read or listen to you because you have an agenda". — Philosophim

But if the source begins with misrepresentations, I am unlikely to consider them unbiased, and therefore likely to call into question anything else they say

This is not a gender study, this is a sex differences study. We have to be careful to not accidently conflate the wrong meaning of gender in the discussion. We are using gender as the sociological concept, not a synonym for sex. Sex expectations are biological. Remember that gender is "Women should wear top hats." If we could find a brain section that correlated with this sociological belief, then we could demonstrate gender in the brain. — Philosophim

But I am not using gender as a sociological concept, but an aspect of identity at least in part determined by brain function.

No, it is not the type of hat one should wear, but patterns of thinking that emerge from neurological function.

this is a sex differences evaluation, not a gender evaluation of the brain. — Philosophim

How do you think the differences in male and female brains are manifested?

And I could easily ask "Why are you so fixated on the notion that gender might be determined in utero?" — Philosophim

Because that is what all the evidence points to.

What if we could isolate it to a misunderstanding and train the person to simply have a better understanding of their body? — Philosophim

This sounds dangerously like advocating for "conversion therapy" which has been been roundly denounced by all major medical associations. Conversion therapy is unsuccessful and in fact leads to psychological distress. If you are looking for a science-backed approach, this is not it.

You can find a long list of medical associations at this link that have made a statement in favour of gender affirming care. Here is one typical statement, from the American Psychological Association:

This policy statement affirms APA’s support for unobstructed access to healthcare and evidence-based clinical care for transgender, gender-diverse, and nonbinary children, adolescents, and adults.

Furthermore, this policy statement addresses the spread of misleading and unfounded narratives that mischaracterize gender dysphoria and affirming care, likely resulting in further stigmatization, marginalization, and lack of access to psychological and medical supports for transgender, gender-diverse, and nonbinary individuals.”

"The American Psychological Association has adopted a resolution opposing efforts to change people’s gender identity, citing scientific research showing that such actions may be harmful.

The resolution, adopted by APA’s governing Council of Representatives on Feb. 26, aligns with the association’s stance against similar efforts aimed at changing people’s sexual orientation.

“There is a growing body of research that shows that transgender or nonbinary gender identities are normal variations in human expression of gender,” said APA President Jennifer F. Kelly, PhD. “Attempts to force people to conform with rigid gender identities can be harmful to their mental health and well-being.”

I hope you will pay particular attention to the last paragraph of the copied statement.

you still have not demonstrated why gender is not prejudice, and sexism when taken as being more important in law and culture than sex. — Philosophim

I think I have. Gender-affirming care is about affirming identity, not enforcing whatever cultural mores may exist. Besides, your position assumes that all of the male gender, or all of the female gender, hold the same cultural mores, and this is of course a false premise.

hat just means that he asked ChatGPT to do his homework for him, and it gave him that paper. — Leontiskos

using a search engine as a tool is not having anyone "do your homework for you"

sex expectations as markers for correct sex identification are usually extremely accurate and easy to identify
— Philosophim

Even for prepubescent children?

I'm not sure I agree even for adults. What are the specific "markers" you are thinking of? — Leontiskos

For kids it can be a little more difficult if someone specifically dressed up a boy or a girl to disguise them, but even at that age its not very difficult to tell the difference. Personal anecdote, I had a few jobs where I had to deal with 20-30+ kids in different age categories. I have never mistaken a kid for the wrong sex.

Markers are usually face, voice, gait, and non-verbal gestures.

Adults are usually very easy to tell. There are so many markers.

A 96% accuracy in telling sex when smelling someone's palm sweat.
https://www.sciencealert.com/its-possible-to-identify-someones-sex-with-96-accuracy-with-just-a-sniff-of-their-hand

In a study where people listened to voices:
"Listeners were extremely accurate in recognizing the sex of male and female vocalisers, achieving 99% accuracy from a full paragraph to 95% accuracy from a single vowel."
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-49596-y

Studies about facial recognition without adornments:
"Our results indicate that facial structures with full information on the texture and color of the skin are correctly classified as to their sex by most of the participants (98.4 % for Exp. 1 and 94.6 % for Exp. 2). If we do not consider versions 3 and 5 (close to the androgyne version 4), which contain a certain degree of sex ambiguity and only consider the less ambiguous versions (1 and 2 for male faces, and 6 and 7 for female faces), the accuracy approaches the ceiling (99.9 % for Exp.1, and 99.1 % for Exp.2). This is in line with previous research which observed that natural faces, devoid of any cultural signs of sex, are generally correctly categorized into their sex (Bruce et al., 1987, Bruce et al., 1993, Sæther et al., 2009)."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004269892200133X

How many times have you mistaken a person's sex in your own life out of the thousands of people you've met? Sex is such an important social and physical component in life, and mistakes can be costly. I also have rarely ever seen a person who cannot correctly identify a person's sex in public.

The one difficulty I think that I and many others have is identifying trans men in public. Testosterone is a hormone that imo, is the primary catalyst for sexual dimorphism and alters the face. For me at least, the face is usually an instant indicator to a person's sex. In my many observations of trans women in a live setting, its usually extremely easy to tell they are men, not so with trans men.

But what happens if people say that an institution should consider gender rather than sex? What if they say, "I am not saying gender should shape something that is sex-related. I am saying that gender should shape something that is gender-related. I think this institution should turn on gender, not sex." — Leontiskos

First, "Who is going to determine the exact definition of the female and male gender?" Its a subjective opinion, and basing objective law on subjective opinion is discrimination. If I believe women should be able to wear top hats, and an organization declares, "Women cannot wear top hats. If you wear a top hate, you are not a woman in this organization," that's discriminatory sexism. But this is from my side. Can you craft a situation in which gender of sex would A. Not be sexism, or B, if its still sexism, its a fair and good sexism that avoids discrimination?

there's no difference between using Chatgpt as a search engine and using Google as a search engine — Questioner

My apologies, using it as a search engine is fine. I do not use ChatGPT very often so I was unaware what that referenced.

The site has citations to several articles, its one of many things to read. The real enemy is "I will not read or listen to you because you have an agenda".
— Philosophim

But if the source begins with misrepresentations, I am unlikely to consider them unbiased, and therefore likely to call into question anything else they say — Questioner

Fair, but you didn't say they were misrepresenting anything, only that what they cited wasn't against what you were saying.

This is not a gender study, this is a sex differences study. We have to be careful to not accidently conflate the wrong meaning of gender in the discussion. We are using gender as the sociological concept, not a synonym for sex. Sex expectations are biological. Remember that gender is "Women should wear top hats." If we could find a brain section that correlated with this sociological belief, then we could demonstrate gender in the brain.
— Philosophim

But I am not using gender as a sociological concept, but an aspect of identity at least in part determined by brain function. — Questioner

These two things are not incompatible. Remember how I've said, "Everything is the brain"? So are our sociological concepts. The difference is these are learned and reasoned through, and not innate. What you need to demonstrate is that if someone says, "Women should wear top hats," and someone else says, "Women should not wear top hats," that there is some region of the brain that innately is going to believe this.

Remember that there are two definitions for gender, and that we are discussing the sociological aspect, not the synonym for sex. If there is a sex reference, then we note that to avoid conflation logical fallacies, and keep clear communication. My description of gender as sociological beliefs about how a sex should act is confirmed in gender theory, as well as in science. If you are going to use gender in some other way, you are not using gender as agreed upon within these institutions. If you do think there should be another definition, then you need to explain how this definition is separate from sex. Further, all of your papers at that point are suspect, as they use established definitions of gender and not your personal one. Even if you have a personal definition for gender, if a paper is clearly using gender as a synonym for sex, you do not get to change their definition to suit what you want.

No, it is not the type of hat one should wear, but patterns of thinking that emerge from neurological function. — Questioner

No, what type of hat a sex should wear is 100% what gender is. That's the social construct. Sex expectations, like a deeper voice for men, is not gender but a biological expression of an expected sex characteristic objectively determined over scientific studies. That is not sociological, and not gender.

It may very well be that our sociological constructs of gender are determined by the brain. But you need to be pointing to the sociological aspect. It doesn't have to be "top hats" per say, but you need to show a study between people's different opinions about how a sex should behave in public and be able to point to a brain region that is likely to determine that opinion. As of today, I do not believe any paper is able to show this.

As noted, I agreed with you that someone who is likely to identity as trans gender does have an area in the prefrontal cortex that lights up differently which involves the processing of body perception. And I'm also very open to the fact that brain science on gender is very early and not set in stone yet. But so far there is not an indicator of some inaliaable identity like a female brain in a male body, but a misprocessing of one's body perception. Remember, I've never said people don't feel like they're in the wrong body or have a gender identity. What I've noted is that gender is a prejudice against the sexes, and elevating it over sex is sexism. That does not mean its a good thing to hold or that one should base their life around such identities.

this is a sex differences evaluation, not a gender evaluation of the brain.
— Philosophim

How do you think the differences in male and female brains are manifested? — Questioner

As noted, science is still out on it. A couple of things which are clear is that female brains on average have more white matter, male brains on average have more grey matter. Again, I'm not disputing male and female differences in brains, and have referenced a few myself. But sex differences are not sociological gender differences. That is incontrovertible.

What if we could isolate it to a misunderstanding and train the person to simply have a better understanding of their body?
— Philosophim

This sounds dangerously like advocating for "conversion therapy" which has been been roundly denounced by all major medical associations. Conversion therapy is unsuccessful and in fact leads to psychological distress. If you are looking for a science-backed approach, this is not it. — Questioner

Conversation therapy regarding sexual orientation, yes. Yes, I'm aware the trans community tried to grab and re-use the word for themselves regarding gender identity so they could accuse people of being bigots, but that in no way is settled science. The words and phrases are irrelevant to the concepts. And as I am referring to the treatment of gender dysphoria, that concept in no way applies. Gender dysphoria can be treated in multiple ways. Transition is considered the last treatment when no other forms of treatment like therapy suffice. But offering therapy to a person to treat gender dysphoria is in no way conversation therapy.

This policy statement affirms APA’s support for unobstructed access to healthcare and evidence-based clinical care for transgender, gender-diverse, and nonbinary children, adolescents, and adults.

Furthermore, this policy statement addresses the spread of misleading and unfounded narratives that mischaracterize gender dysphoria and affirming care, likely resulting in further stigmatization, marginalization, and lack of access to psychological and medical supports for transgender, gender-diverse, and nonbinary individuals.”

"The American Psychological Association has adopted a resolution opposing efforts to change people’s gender identity, citing scientific research showing that such actions may be harmful. — Questioner

Yes, I'm aware of all of this. I'm talking about treating gender dysphoria. And to my mind I have not misrepresented any of the treatment methodologies. I'm also not noting that people don't have gender identities. I'm merely noting they are prejudiced subjective opinions about the sexes. Which again, I have not see any counter evidence that they are not.

“Attempts to force people to conform with rigid gender identities can be harmful to their mental health and well-being.” — Questioner

I agree 100%. One should not live their life by prejudice or sexism.

you still have not demonstrated why gender is not prejudice, and sexism when taken as being more important in law and culture than sex.
— Philosophim

I think I have. Gender-affirming care is about affirming identity, not enforcing whatever cultural mores may exist. Besides, your position assumes that all of the male gender, or all of the female gender, hold the same cultural mores, and this is of course a false premise. — Questioner

Do not think you have, show you have. That's philosophy. First, remember that while the words, 'gender affirming care' are used, why is it used? Its used to treat gender dysphoria, not people who do not have it. For example, if I'm a male who lives in a culture that says, "Men should never cry," yet I cry without caring about what society thinks, I do not have gender dysphoria. If as a woman, I liked to wear top hats in a culture that was against women wearing them, and I did without worry, I would not have gender dysphoria.

Gender Dysphoria- Clinically significant distress and sense of unease that may lead to increased levels of depression and anxiety that have a harmful impact on daily life. This distress is caused by a person’s gender identity not matching how they feel within. This often occurs when a trans person is forced to match their gender identity and expression to their assigned sex at birth. Cisgender people can also experience gender dysphoria when dressing as the opposite sex.
https://aghope.org/en/blog/sogie-terms-and-definitions-understanding-the-lgbtqia2s-community-2022-6?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=11348411711&gbraid=0AAAAAD7UOl-E4otwZ5aEHO12spjLEEXj6&gclid=CjwKCAiAu67KBhAkEiwAY0jAlR1hi4rPCt1twfZXFYCSWDNVLMH1nwNrYiyoTVFvTBvRKFwZ8X2vwhoCnGEQAvD_BwE

And to add to the above from the same site:
Gender- refers to the socially constructed characteristics of people, including gender norms and the roles we play.

Typically therapy helps a person come to terms with their own view of themselves. If you're a boy who likes dolls, you learn its ok to like dolls. Most people can come to terms with that. Gender dysphoria that is treated is specifically about a person's sex not being in line with their gender identity. So a boy who likes dolls is told, "Its ok to like dolls," but despite this they cannot accept this fact and desire to have the body of the opposite sex.

From my observations, transgender treatment is to learn to accept your own personality differences and eliminate the prejudice and sexism a person has about the sexism. I don't have a full picture, but I suspect most people who transition are trans sexuals, or people who simply desire the body of the opposite sex. The language of 'gender' is often used to hide this, as trans sexualism had a poor connotation for many years prior. To be clear, when I talk about trans genderism, I am not talking about trans sexualism. That is not gender. I am talking about the definition cited above which in no way is the same or necessarily leads to trans sexualism or even transition.

Finally, of course I don't hold that males and females hold the same cultural mores. I've been saying all along gender is a subjective prejudice that can differ from person to person and culture to culture.

Why are we trying to ignore the fact that the average ("straight") male brain simply has poorer self control over lust and primal impulse and tends to be more violent. Why are we trying to spin that as a positive thing? It's not. Sure, it's the unfortunate majority, it's "normal".

Males whose brains tend to have more in common with females than the average male sounds superior in just about every way. How does that have anything to do with sexual preference? — Outlander

Philosophim allows for the possibility that sexual preference may be connected with a brain region which differs between males and females, but he doesn’t believe there are any other behaviors associated with biological sex and their associated brain structures. This is why he believes that the concept of gender is completely socially constructed. I am countering his approach with a model which connects the brain region he is talking about with functional properties uniting a wide range of behaviors, including sexual preference, aggression, perceptual of color, sound and touch, aspects of vocalization , posture and gait. I believe that sexual preference and aggressiveness are linked, and originate in the affect-perceptual organizing function of this brain region. I call this constellation of affective-perceptual-behavioral tendencies gender. Sexual preference cannot be understood without seeing how it derives from the holistic organizational capabilities of this brain region. In making this claim I am not denying the contribution of socio-cultural factors. The biological and the social are inextricably intertwined with regard to gender behavior.

sexual orientation is not a processing issue, its an innate brain function. The problem of course is that we don't yet quite have the brain issues for sexual orientation down in heterosexual brains. So at this point its a lot of guess work. The only thing we can say for certain is that gay men are not females in male bodies. They are males with a sexual orientation towards the same sex. — Philosophim

The possibility I am suggesting is that innate brain functions include the organization of processing. You indicated that innate brain functions may dictate who we are sexually attracted to. In other words, an important aspect of psychological behavior is somehow organized biologically. You don’t know how the brain does this, but you believe the ways in which the such inborn functions affect sexual behavior is limited to sexual attraction. Are you open to the possibility that more than just this one facet of sexual behavior is traceable to brain wiring? That perhaps a whole host of behaviors originate this way, and are connected on the basis of a single mechanism? And that the reason many see only sexual attraction as associated with innate brain wiring is that it is the most tangible and identifiable sexual
behavior? Others point to aggression, perceptual processing, voice modulation, gait, posture and many other subtle aspects of behavior as being shaped and organized by the same innate brain structure that dictates who we are attracted to.

Philosophim allows for the possibility that sexual preference may be connected with a brain region which differs between males and females, but he doesn’t believe there are any other behaviors associated with biological sex and their associated brain structures. — Joshs

No, that is incorrect. Innate and unlearned behaviors are obviously from the brain. The question of course is how much is associated with the brain vs learned behavior. Things that strongly correlate with the purpose of sex like flirting behavior are likely inborn.

This is why he believes that the concept of gender is completely socially constructed. — Joshs

No. First, gender by definition is NOT a synonym sex here, but the sociological belief about how a sex should behave in front of other people. There is simply no evidence as of yet that this sociological belief is anything more than a subjective opinion that is formed through experience. In other words, there is no place in the brain where a person is born and innately believes that only women should wear a dress.

The biological and the social are inextricably intertwined with regard to gender behavior. — Joshs

No, gender is just a prejudice in how a sex should act. That's it. Its just an opinion.

The possibility I am suggesting is that innate brain functions include the organization of processing. — Joshs

Its not a suggestion, its a fact. If the brain does not have the ability to process something, it can't.

Are you open to the possibility that more than just this one facet of sexual behavior is traceable to brain wiring? That perhaps a whole host of behaviors originate this way, and are connected on the basis of a single mechanism? And that the reason many see only sexual attraction as associated with innate brain wiring is that it is the most tangible and identifiable sexual
behavior? Others point to aggression, perceptual processing, voice modulation, gait, posture and many other subtle aspects of behavior as being shaped and organized by the same innate brain structure that dictates who we are attracted to. — Joshs

Absolutely I am open to this. Let go deep into this.

What the OP has deviated into due to Questioner is whether there is an innate 'gender identity' that is in the brain. So for example, if you were born and thought, "Women should not wear top hats", and this is not learned nor can it be changed at any point, then it would be a biological reality of oneself. Sexual orientation fits this bill. You cannot choose who or what you are attracted to. You can only decide what you do about it. I fully support gays marrying and having sexual relations as sexual orientation is unchangable and ridiculously strong. So someone not fulfilling their sexual desires is forced into denying a very strong part of their brain. Also, at the end of the day, what does it matter? It causes no harm to anyone else in society, and can cause all the nice sexual and romantic feelings with another partner.

Gender however is a learned trait. I can learn, "Top hats shouldn't be worn by women," but also learn, "Top hats should be worn by women," Now my brain might have a proclivity to attach things to sex that don't belong. I might have a brain that has a higher proclivity towards prejudice, and is more inflexible and tends to sexism is unchecked. That does not mean I as a person do not have the ability to unlearn prejudice or sexism.

There can also be innate brain states that compel one to act in a way that other people might think should be exclusive to the other sex. This won't change either. But you can decide, "This is who I am, their prejudice is irrelevant," or "This is who I am. I can't act in that way if I'm not the other sex." The former is what you should conclude, the later should be banished from your thoughts.

The point is there is no innate brain state that establishes a particular gender. Or, no area of the brain that biologically determines how a sex should act in social situations, like wearing a dress. That is learned sociological behavior. And it can change. One can learn prejudice, but they can also unlearn prejudice. Maybe the person really wants to wear a dress. That's fine, that in itself is not prejudice. It is only when a person states, "Only women can wear a dress, I wear a dress, therefore I must be a woman," that one has elevated their prejudice over sex and descended into sexism.

but you didn't say they were misrepresenting anything — Philosophim

Actually, I did. They refuted supposed claims that were never actually made, like locating a specific “gender area” of the brain, or that any one brain is “100% male or female” and that male and female brains “do not look different.” No- one has ever claimed these things, so their approach was less than honest. Please re-read my post above.

Remember how I've said, "Everything is the brain"? So are our sociological concepts. The difference is these are learned and reasoned through, and not innate. What you need to demonstrate is that if someone says, "Women should wear top hats," and someone else says, "Women should not wear top hats," that there is some region of the brain that innately is going to believe this. — Philosophim

Yes, social mores are learned. Gender identity is not.

We don't expect that there would be one specific region that determines gender. No-one has claimed that. That is not how the brain works. But in previous posts I have mentioned some particular regions that might be involved. And another important aspect is the connectivity between these regions and how they function.

Remember that there are two definitions for gender, and that we are discussing the sociological aspect, not the synonym for sex. — Philosophim

You can't make up your own definition of gender that invalidates all the current scientific research and expect people to accept it without question. No, there are not two definitions of gender. Gender is the sex that you identify with. Identity is a mental construct of the brain.

No, what type of hat a sex should wear is 100% what gender is. — Philosophim

No. Your gender is the bent towards either male or female in the way you perceive, process, interpret and make meaning in this world, of which an important aspect is how you fit into the world.

but you need to show a study between people's different opinions about how a sex should behave in public — Philosophim

Here's the problem - gender is not about how a particular sex should behave in public. It's about a particular state of mind. (And now I have fallen to repeating myself).

What I've noted is that gender is a prejudice against the sexes, and elevating it over sex is sexism. — Philosophim

Only if you use your erroneous definition of gender.

Yes, I'm aware the trans community tried to grab and re-use the word for themselves regarding gender identity so they could accuse people of being bigots — Philosophim

This is an unfounded accusation (and rather wild) and tends to call into question your insistence that you do not have an agenda

I'm talking about treating gender dysphoria — Philosophim

The medically accepted treatment is gender-affirming care.

I'm also not noting that people don't have gender identities. I'm merely noting they are prejudiced subjective opinions about the sexes. — Philosophim

This would be inaccurate.

For example, if I'm a male who lives in a culture that says, "Men should never cry," yet I cry without caring about what society thinks, I do not have gender dysphoria. If as a woman, I liked to wear top hats in a culture that was against women wearing them, and I did without worry, I would not have gender dysphoria. — Philosophim

i strongly encourage you to read some transgender memoirs to gain a better understanding of the transgender experience.

Gender Dysphoria- Clinically significant distress and sense of unease that may lead to increased levels of depression and anxiety that have a harmful impact on daily life. This distress is caused by a person’s gender identity not matching how they feel within. This often occurs when a trans person is forced to match their gender identity and expression to their assigned sex at birth. Cisgender people can also experience gender dysphoria when dressing as the opposite sex.
https://aghope.org/en/blog/sogie-terms-and-definitions-understanding-the-lgbtqia2s-community-2022-6?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=11348411711&gbraid=0AAAAAD7UOl-E4otwZ5aEHO12spjLEEXj6&gclid=CjwKCAiAu67KBhAkEiwAY0jAlR1hi4rPCt1twfZXFYCSWDNVLMH1nwNrYiyoTVFvTBvRKFwZ8X2vwhoCnGEQAvD_BwE — Philosophim

I'm not sure why you chose to cite some random volunteer (nonscientific) organization - but in any case, their definition is wrong, and appears to have been written by someone who didn't understand gender dysphoria. According to the American Psychiatric Association, here is the correct definition:

“gender dysphoria,” - refers to the psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity.

And to add to the above from the same site:
Gender- refers to the socially constructed characteristics of people, including gender norms and the roles we play. — Philosophim

No. According to the APA (on the same page linked above):

gender identity - one’s psychological sense of their gender

From my observations, transgender treatment is to learn to accept your own personality differences and eliminate the prejudice and sexism a person has about the sexism. I don't have a full picture, — Philosophim

I urge you to read up more about the transgender experience.

I think much of the confusion arises because you haven't got a clear picture of what gender identity is. It is not about what people tell you to do. It is instead something innate, something formed in the brain by the way thoughts are processed, and in the vast majority of cases these thoughts are processed with either a male or a female influence.

I am countering his approach with a model which connects the brain region he is talking about with functional properties uniting a wide range of behaviors, including sexual preference, aggression, perceptual of color, sound and touch, aspects of vocalization , posture and gait. I believe that sexual preference and aggressiveness are linked, and originate in the affect-perceptual organizing function of this brain region. I call this constellation of affective-perceptual-behavioral tendencies gender. Sexual preference cannot be understood without seeing how it derives from the holistic organizational capabilities of this brain region. In making this claim I am not denying the contribution of socio-cultural factors. The biological and the social are inextricably intertwined with regard to gender behavior. — Joshs

Very well said.

Are you open to the possibility that more than just this one facet of sexual behavior is traceable to brain wiring? That perhaps a whole host of behaviors originate this way, and are connected on the basis of a single mechanism? And that the reason many see only sexual attraction as associated with innate brain wiring is that it is the most tangible and identifiable sexual
behavior? Others point to aggression, perceptual processing, voice modulation, gait, posture and many other subtle aspects of behavior as being shaped and organized by the same innate brain structure that dictates who we are attracted to. — Joshs

Excellent. Thank you.

but you didn't say they were misrepresenting anything
— Philosophim

Actually, I did. They refuted supposed claims that were never actually made, like locating a specific “gender area” of the brain, or that any one brain is “100% male or female” and that male and female brains “do not look different.” No- one has ever claimed these things, so they approach was less than honest. Please re-read my post above. — Questioner

I don't want to get stuck on this as these points they were making to other people were never intended as directed at you. The main post of this was to demonstrate that there is still debate in science as to how different male and female brains are. Yes, people have claimed these things. I've discussed with quite a few people, you'll find people who hold these views. So they aren't being dishonest by answering comments that other people make. I'm not even claiming that any science they've cited is indisputable, I've claimed many times it is even from my own viewpoints. The point is that you understand that brain science on sex and gender is still evolving and there is still a lot of scientific debate out there. Can we agree on that?

You can't make up your own definition of gender that invalidates all the current scientific research and expect people to accept it without question. No, there are not two definitions of gender. Gender is the sex that you identify with. Identity is a mental construct of the brain. — Questioner

I am not making these up. I've posted sources backing my definitions. Gender identity is the gender you identify with. Gender in itself does not include personal identity. And where am I saying its invalidating scientific research? All I noted above is the way they were using gender in the paper was to refer to biological sex differences, not sociological ones. For the purposes of this conversation, sex and gender are clearly separated to avoid conflation and allow clear and unambiguous communication.

Let try a different approach. Do you believe that there are biological sex differences? Do you also believe that there can be different social expectations for sexes across people and cultures? If so, are these different enough to need unique terms for clarity of discussion? For example, men biologically are more statistically likely to have lower octive voices. Socially, there are some people who think women should wear dresses, and men should not. Is this a distinct enough difference to consider? And if it is, what would words you use to identify these different concepts? And if it is not, why is it not a distinct enough difference to consider?

Remember how I've said, "Everything is the brain"? So are our sociological concepts. The difference is these are learned and reasoned through, and not innate. What you need to demonstrate is that if someone says, "Women should wear top hats," and someone else says, "Women should not wear top hats," that there is some region of the brain that innately is going to believe this.
— Philosophim

Yes, social mores are learned. Gender identity is not. — Questioner

I'm talking about gender. Gender is learned as a social construct. If we don't have an agreement on the definition of gender, then we're not going to be able to agree on gender identity.

I'm talking about treating gender dysphoria
— Philosophim

The medically accepted treatment is gender-affirming care. — Questioner

My counter was to this very statement you made again. This does not indicate why I am wrong and you are right. This is just a repeat of your point after I provided a full explanation of what gender-affirming care treats.

According to the American Psychiatric Association, here is the correct definition:

“gender dysphoria,” - refers to the psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity. — Questioner

Right. Now please point out how it is different from my own definition that I gave you. What between mine and yours is the fundamental distinction?

And to add to the above from the same site:
Gender- refers to the socially constructed characteristics of people, including gender norms and the roles we play.
— Philosophim

No. According to the APA (on the same page linked above):

gender identity - one’s psychological sense of their gender — Questioner

Did you see that I defined gender, not gender identity? Proving a definition for gender identity as a counter for gender isn't addressing the correct point. Gender is a belief about how a sex acts, and a gender identity is saying, "I identify as that gender."

I urge you to read up more about the transgender experience. — Questioner

I urge you to drop this false idea that I haven't. I have a close friend who's in the middle of transition right now. I've researched the issue for years. You need to get rid of the idea that only your view point is innately correct and that if someone disagrees with it, it means there is a moral failure or ignorance. That's cult behavior, or behavior from someone who has nothing else to rely on for their arguments. Everything I've said in this topic is agreed with by at least one trans person.

Let me explain: I always consider that I could be wrong. If you hold your position as true without question, then its almost certainly not. I've arrived at where I am through doubts and questioning carefully over time. I once was an avid supporter of trans gender rights and gender ideology. Over time with thinking and questioning, I have found plain flaws that have invalidated many of their points. It doesn't mean that I don't like trans gender people, it just means that some of the things they want and some of the ideas around them are flawed. And I'm still open to the idea that I could be wrong. That's what a good discussion is for. If you want to convince me, post good papers, arguments, and definitions. Stuff like the sentence above will only cause good people to hand wave you away as full of yourself. Don't do that, you've been much better than the average poster. So far this discussion has made me learn about trans gender self-identity processing in the neo-cortex from our conversation. Continue with your points please, not suggestions that I need to do more reading.

Hear, here.

↪Christoffer Hear, here. — Banno

The cries of those who cannot counter a very simple point. Questioner is an example of what people on this board should be like. We disagree on some fundamental issues, but they keep bringing facts, citations, and different arguments. Also respectful in disagreement. They have my respect back.