Are you asking what Milton may have thought and wanted his readers to think?

Are you asking what Milton may have thought and wanted his readers to think? — Ciceronianus

I'm asking both that and what people here think about my questions. I'm actually leading a book group on Paradise Lost tomorrow and figure any feedback I get here might help me design questions for the group (which I haven't thought up yet).

I just finished reading the Epic (I was motivated to read it by What in me is Dark by Oliver Reade), and It's likely some of the younger generation women in the group will be shocked by the sexism, but Adam is portrayed as quite a romantic character. He eats the apple because he knows Eve will be expelled from Eden and he loves her enough to share her punishment. Another question might be: Is the sexism involved in Eve being a "helpmate" for Adam and a weak sinner a mere reflection of the mores of the time, or did biblical (and Milton's) sexism reenforce and drive sexist mores?

I've always thought that if coercive violence is a bad thing and if laws are always enforced by coercive violence, utopia must be an anarchy (which would rule out heaven). I'm curious what others think.

Are revolutions doomed to fail? Will their perpetrators -- like Lucifer -- inevitably wish to replace the king instead of abolishing the kingdom? Can heaven be a utopia if it is ruled by a dictator? Shouldn't freedom be mandatory for utopias? — Ecurb

I'm not sure, i'd just like to point out that we can, and have, replaced rule by a king/Queen/oligarchy with the rule of law subject to democratic alteration. We perhaps haven't done it very well, and it's massively under attack at the moment, but it can be improved. First step to improving the robustness is to get rid of first part the post, perhaps.

I'm not sure, i'd just like to point out that we can, and have, replaced rule by a king/Queen/oligarchy with the rule of law subject to democratic alteration. We perhaps haven't done it very well, and it's massively under attack at the moment, but it can be improved. First step to improving the robustness is to get rid of first part the post, perhaps. — bert1

Good point, although the French Revolution suffered from some of the same problems as Satan's rebellion. Despite its problems, the American Revolution still stands as an example. My point about utopia and anarchy remains.

IN the chapter on Jefferson, Reade does point out his hypocrisy as a slave owner. His affair with Sally Hemmings began in Paris (to which she accompanied him). She was Jefferson's dead wife's half-sister (his father-in-law also had a slave mistress), and their affair began in Paris where Sally accompanied Jefferson as a ladies' maid to his daughter. She was only 14 or 15 at the time, and since slavery was illegal in France she and her brother Robert almost refused to return. Jefferson promised Sally's brother Robert he would free him if he returned (which both did). What promises Jefferson made to Sally have not been recorded. (Donald Trump's autocratic ambitions are clearly endangering the American Dream, and would have been reviled by Jefferson, who was a small-federal-government advocate.)

"The world was all before them..." Was paradise lost? Or gained? — Ecurb

With flora mystical and magical,
Eden’s botanical garden was blest,
So Eve, taking more than just the Apple,
Plucked off the loveliest of the best.

Thus it’s to Eve that we must give our thanks,
For Earth’s variety of fruits and plants,
For when she was out of Paradise thrown,
She stole all the flowers we’ve ever known.

Therewith, through sensuous beauty and grace,
Eve with Adam brought forth the human race,
But our world would never have come to be,
Had not God allowed them His mystery.

When they were banished from His bosom,
Eve saw more than just the Apple Blossom,
And took, on her way through Eden’s bowers,
Many wondrous plants and fruitful flowers.

Mighty God, upon seeing this great theft,
At first was angered, but soon smiled and wept,
For human nature was made in His name—
So He had no one but Himself to blame!

Yet still He made ready His thunderbolt,
As His Old Testament wrath cast its vote
To end this experiment gone so wrong—
But soon He felt the joy of life’s new song.

Eve had all the plants that she could carry;
God in His wisdom grew uncontrary.
Out of Eden she waved the flowered wands,
The seeds spilling upon the barren lands.

God held the lightning bolt already lit,
No longer knowing what to do with it,
So He threw it into the heart of Hell,
Forming of it a place where all was well.

Thus the world from molten fire had birth,
As Hell faded and was turned into Earth.
This He gave to Adam and Eve, with love,
For them and theirs to make a Heaven of.

From His bolt grew the Hawthorn and Bluebell,
And He be damned, for Eve stole these as well!
So He laughed and pretended not to see,
Retreating into eternity.

“So be it,” God said, when time was young,
“That such is the life My design has wrung,
For in their souls some part of Me has sprung—
So let them enjoy all the songs I’ve sung.

“Life was much too easy in Paradise,
And lacked therefore of any real meaning,
For without the lows there can be no highs—
All that remains is a dull flat feeling!


“There’s no Devil to blame for their great zest—
This mix of good and bad makes them best!
The human nature that makes them survive,
Also lets them feel very much alive.

“That same beastful soul that makes them glad
Does also make them seem a little bad.
If only I could strip the wrong from right,
But I cannot have the day without the night!”

So it was that with fertile delight Eve
Seeded the lifeless Earth for us to receive.
Though many flowers she had to leave behind,
These we have from the Mother of Mankind:

Eve gathered the amiable Jasmine,
Which soft exhales its breath of friendship,
And by a delicious fragrance in the night
Overpowers the stars with its sweet delight.

The Jasmine impregnates the dew each night
With its friendly perfume of good and right;
Thus morning’s incense carries its odour,
Keeping everyone in fresh good humor.

…