Why should I care that you are happy?
Admittingly, helping others become happy and seeing other people happy tends to make me happy. But there is a difference between that and valuing other people's happiness more than your own.
What could possibly be more important than your own happiness? — darthbarracuda
Is there anything immoral with saying that my happiness is more important than your happiness? — darthbarracuda
Why should I care that you are happy? — darthbarracuda
If it is moral and rational to act in your own self-interest, then why wouldn't you disintegrate the homeless man? — darthbarracuda
There is nothing rational about self interest. — unenlightened
For example, if I find something valuable which is likely to have been dropped by a stranger, and I think that there's a good chance I'll get away with nabbing it for myself at the expense of it's original owner, then I'm the sort of person that's inclined towards taking it. — Sapientia
Perhaps not per se, but it can be the motivation behind a rational pursuit, or be the subject of sound reasoning. Just like altruism. — Sapientia
I'm not arguing that putting the interests of others ahead of one's own is noble or altruistic. — Landru Guide Us
I am saying it's a better way to live. — Landru Guide Us
It generates calmness and clarity and maturity. Those who are always out to get something for themselves act like children. — Landru Guide Us
As to being a subjective judgment, it's certainly a judgment and it arises out of my life, but the OP asks for a judgment, so I'm not going to apologize for that. — Landru Guide Us
Indeed. but it is worth pointing out that self interest is no more rational than altruism. The myth of rational self interest leads to much nonsense. As though assholery is somehow clever and decency foolish. — unenlightened
15 years later I still feel annoyed about not claiming the $100. — Bitter Crank
I'm not arguing that putting the interests of others ahead of one's own is noble or altruistic. I am saying it's a better way to live. It generates calmness and clarity and maturity. Those who are always out to get something for themselves act like children. They are comical, if not absurd. Their life is unexamined. — Landru Guide Us
OK, then we agree. I think you're right that it's a misconception. Rationality, in this context, seems to boil down to whether or not one acts towards one's interests, whether that be self-interest or altruism. I think we naturally tend to judge others based on our own values, and that that can result in judging the other as foolish if they don't act in accord with our own values, like my initial reaction to someone handing in a valuable lost item, rather than keeping it for themselves. — Sapientia
This assumes an ethical subjectivism, where right and wrong are simply personal preferences. As in, it's ok to take your stuff as long as I don't feel bad about it, and it's wrong to take your stuff it it's going to make me feel bad. If that is your position, then why limit it to the return of lost items? Why not simply say that it's ok to randomly punch someone in the face as long as you can live with your conscience and not ok to do that if it's going to cause you internal grief? — Hanover
What I'm saying is that the mindless pursuit of self interest is in fact immoral and that showing concern and compassion for others is moral. — Hanover
Whether you want to define doing a moral act as rational or not is another matter, but it's entirely possible that rationality isn't the most critical guiding principle in distinguishing right from wrong. That is, if rape, robbery, and murder is my most rational course in some hypothetical situation, that hardly means I ought to do it from a moral perspective. — Hanover
Eastern European peasants are some of the most moral (and happy!) people I have ever met. A struggle for food, within reasonable limits, is good. The problem for Western, developed societies is that life is too easy - hence people show their real, immoral nature. That's why the US's divorce/marriage ratio is 53%. That's why US is the most depressed country in the world. That's why suicide rates are at 15 per 100,000 population. Because life is so darn easy. People can only do immoral things when life is easy. I am not religious, but the people who wrote the Bible were right: "blessed are the meek".This all assumes access to the necessities of life in the first place, and not a life and death competition for resources, as capitalism tends to promote. When people are trying to survive all morality goes out the window, and it's understandable that it does. — Landru Guide Us
The problem for Western, developed societies is that life is too easy - hence people show their real, immoral nature. That's why the US's divorce/marriage ratio is 53%. That's why US is the most depressed country in the world. That's why suicide rates are at 15 per 100,000 population. Because life is so darn easy. — Agustino
People can only do immoral things when life is easy. — Agustino
Comfort is the cause of immorality. When people are comfortable, with all their needs met, they dream the most treacherous of things - the most vain and selfish desires... [etc., etc.] — Agustino
It's altruistic by definition. — Sapientia
Eastern European peasants are some of the most moral (and happy!) people I have ever met. A struggle for food, within reasonable limits, is good. — Agustino
My main points are that these traditional values aren't set in stone, that there are exceptions/counterexamples, that deviation from these values doesn't necessarily mean that one is worse off, and that much of this is a subjective and relative matter. — Sapientia
Comfort is the cause of immorality. — Agustino
Yeh, I got that. But that's not necessarily true, nor true for everyone, all the time, regardless of context. Hence, I am replying that it's better for some, but not others. — Sapientia
No, it's a practice. Altruism is a belief. — Landru Guide Us
My view isn't traditional at all... — Landru Guide Us
My interest here is existential, not moral, per say. Or rather, a morality that derives from an existential evaluation of what it means to have a meaningful life. — Landru Guide Us
I think it is true at all times for all people; it's just not possible when competition for resources is such that people struggle to survive. I don't blame people for the meanness of their existence when survival is at stake (I've been there within the confines of western economics); but I do recognize it is mean.
Are you actually denying that, and, like poor Agustino, engaging in the romantic view that struggle is ennobling? I hope not. — Landru Guide Us
This is useless information. I don't mean that in a mean way; it's just that your personal assessment of the folks you've met is pretty irrelevant.Eastern European peasants are some of the most moral (and happy!) people I have ever met. — Agustino
The US isn't in the top 10 among nations with the highest divorce rates. In fact, the top 4 are all Eastern European countries. http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-divorce-rate-map.html . Divorce in the US is most highly correlated with poverty, lack of education, and early age of marriage. <a href="http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-myth-of-the-high-rate-of-divorce/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-myth-of-the-high-rate-of-divorce/</a>That's why the US's divorce/marriage ratio is 53%. — Agustino
Do you not have Google on your computer? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/11/07/a-stunning-map-of-depression-rates-around-the-world/ The correlation between depression and poverty appears to be directly related, with Eastern Europe fairing poorly. The US is not on the list of the most depressed nations. Your use of the US as the best example of wealth is also flawed. The Scandanavian nations tend to have higher per capita wealth, yet often fair the best in terms of happiness. You'll note that the happiest nations on this list are all wealthy Western European countries. http://www.businessinsider.com/new-world-happiness-report-2015-2015-4That's why US is the most depressed country in the world. — Agustino
The US is 50th in suicide rate. They are far behind many Eastern European nations, and many non-Western Asian nations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate You're spouting off incorrect figures in an effort to make your dubious claim that there is a relationship between comfort and immorality.That's why suicide rates are at 15 per 100,000 population. — Agustino
Eastern Europe dominates the world in terms of alcohol consumption per capita. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capitaComfort is the cause of immorality. When people are comfortable, with all their needs met, they dream the most treacherous of things - the most vain and selfish desires - they desire lots of alcohol, lots of drugs, lots of new highs. — Agustino
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