• evripidis
    3
    First of all, I'm new to the forums so hello to everyone! I'm putting this in general philosophy because I do not know which category would be more appropriate.

    So, to elaborate, consider the following possibility: a person has the ability (whether from science or a possible world where this is normal, it doesn't matter) to "freeze" the passage of time in his mind
    so if he is currently looking at a piece of art he could view it, from his perspective, for a quadrillion years. but he can't act while in this "mode".

    Now consider that someone is about to kill this person with a knife or something. He again freezes his perceptions to see how he might escape, but doesn't find a way even after a quadrillion years (again, only in his mind), so he figures that he might as well stay like that because he fears death.

    But at the same time, time doesn't actually freeze outside his mind, so the assassin kills him in a second.

    So, what happens in that scenario?
  • Rich
    3.2k
    What would happen is exactly what would happen if someone dies in their sleep.
  • Nils Loc
    1.4k
    This is the premise of a short story by J.L Borges, The Secret Miracle.
    Hladik spends a paralyzed year of time (a suspended moment of subjective time) before a firing squad with which he is able to finish a work of fiction (in his head) before he is killed.

    Jacobs Ladder (film) is another, where the protagonist is living a second hallucinatory dream life at the moment of death.

    There is also the Strange Life of Ivan Osokin (by Ouspensky) where a man gets the chance at reliving his life with the intention to change its direction but is oddly is unable to do so. Things play out exactly as they had before despite the knowledge he has about it. So in a way he is just a passive observer (ie. suspended in time) to what has already occurred.

    Then there is Groundhog Day (film) which deals with the eternal recurrence of a single day. So while the protagonist can learn and benefit from the passage of time he is somewhat cell bound but also liberated by the phenomena of recurrence.

    There is Nietzsche's idea Eternal Recurrence but perhaps there is another thread for that. What use did N. think this thought experiment had, I'm not sure? What insight can be gained from these fictional scenarios and though experiments?

    You can ask what happens in these fictional scenarios or how they relate to our actual experience with time and knowledge that we are going to die. We're a bit special with regard to the awareness of our own mortality and our the culturally contemporary impressed fears about death. Could it be otherwise? Is it otherwise for other people?
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k


    Maybe the most familiar short story (made into a film) about that is "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge", by Ambrose Bierce, in which someone getting hanged lives a relatively long experience of escaping and subsequent time in life, though he's actually being hanged.

    I addressed an end-of-life situation like this in some of my posts. I suggested that, at the end of life (the end of lives, if there's reincarnation), there must come a stage of shutdown at which the person has no memory that there ever was such a thing as a body, a life, time, events, problems, lack, incompletion, etc.

    At that time, the person is in Timelessness, Eternity.

    Sure, the body is about to shut down, but the person is quite unaware that there ever was such a thing anyway.

    The Nothing that is approaching is the most basic, fundamental, and natural (in the sense of usual and ordinary) state of affairs, and is, itself, timeless. Leading up to that, the person is already in Timelessness, not expecting, wanting or knowing of the existence of anything else.

    That person has reached, returned to, Eternity.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • evripidis
    3
    " I suggested that, at the end of life (the end of lives, if there's reincarnation), there must come a stage of shutdown at which the person has no memory that there ever was such a thing as a body, a life, time, events, problems, lack, incompletion, etc."

    so nirvana/moshka? this is very interesting but in the particular scenario i mentioned the person's mind is still functioning normally.(remember he is not shot/stabbed/whatever yet. he will be in a split of a second but at the same time his"superpower" makes him percieve this as eternity"

    perhaps it would help if i said that i was inspired to write this post after reading in some christian websites about the idea of universal reconciliation and how eternity can be "relative"
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k
    I'd said:
    " I suggested that, at the end of life (the end of lives, if there's reincarnation), there must come a stage of shutdown at which the person has no memory that there ever was such a thing as a body, a life, time, events, problems, lack, incompletion, etc."evripidis

    You replied:

    so nirvana/moshka?evripidis

    Yes.

    But, according to Hinduism, though it will eventually be there for everyone, nearly all of us are still many lifetimes away from it.

    You said:

    .
    this is very interesting but in the particular scenario i mentioned the person's mind is still functioning normally.(remember he is not shot/stabbed/whatever yet. he will be in a split of a second but at the same time his"superpower" makes him percieve this as eternity"

    Subjective time could seem relatively long, and I've heard of reports of that. Hinduism's and Buddhism's temporary heavens and hells almost immediately after death could be like that. They sound consistent with people's reported NDE perceptions.

    But sure, I've heard of long subjective time during life too, in some situations, as you described.

    Long subjective time, but it couldn't really be eternal during conscious active life.

    perhaps it would help if i said that i was inspired to write this post after reading in some christian websites about the idea of universal reconciliation and how eternity can be "relative"

    What did they say? What did they mean by relative Eternity? I'm interested in opinions about these matters.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • Nils Loc
    1.4k
    Mircea Eliade's work might be worth exploring. He tries to articulate the difference between our modern linear conception of time and mythic (cyclic) time and the resulting existential attitudes evoked.

    Mythic time is a play or performance of world structuring/ordering myth, a recurrence of sacred forms and that which is of tradition or by necessity valued. The profane in his scheme is akin to chaos or the ignored possibilities of new ways of being and doing, that which doesn't enter into the mythic reproduction (or actual cyclic return, like 7:00 am every morning, the sun rising every morning, revolving habits, et cetera.

    Eliade believed that mythic time protected our forebears from the anxiety of an unknown and uncontrolled future full of contingency which we as moderns now have to live with. A belief in eternal return attenuates the modern fear of death. Though the myth of Buddhism represents this anxiety of time again with eternal return. We're now anxious of sufferings of an eternal return in this veil of illusions.

    Leading up to that, the person is already in Timelessness, not expecting, wanting or knowing of the existence of anything else. — Ossipoff

    We're hinting here at the psychological value of eternity and timelessness as an experience rather than an unknowableness (Nothing) that exists between experience.

    This moment here (now!) is the fleeting moment (eternity) before death.
  • evripidis
    3


    sorry for taking so long. the idea was that there is a differece between what mortals may perceive as eternity(in that case eternal punishment) and how god views things who is outside of time. i could point you to the websites but they are in greek..

    as for my original question perhaps an even better way of clarifying what i mean would be the big bang. as any scientist knows it's not really correct to say "before" the big bang. logically extrapolating i assume that since time did not "pass" back "then"(for a lack of better words) it could be described as an eternal transcendent moment or something like that
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k
    You wrote:
    .
    .
    sorry for taking so long. the idea was that there is a difference between what mortals may perceive as eternity(in that case eternal punishment)
    .
    There might not be eternal Heaven and Hell. …other than that Eternity itself can be regarded as Heaven.
    .
    and how god views things who is outside of time.
    .
    The established official Western religious denominations claim to have information about God.
    .
    Eternity isn’t infinite time. It’s absence of time. Eternity is Timelessness.
    .
    as for my original question perhaps an even better way of clarifying what i mean would be the big bang. as any scientist knows it's not really correct to say "before" the big bang.
    .
    True. This universe’s time started at the big-bang.
    .
    (Of course maybe our big-bang universe (BBU) is only a sub-universe, and the actual universe is a multiverse. It’s even been suggested that we’re in an infinite eternal multiverse with infinitely-many component sub-universes.)
    .
    logically extrapolating i assume that since time did not "pass" back "then"(for a lack of better words) it could be described as an eternal transcendent moment or something like that.
    .
    It isn’t a statement with precise meaning.
    .
    As the beginning of time, the big-bang was an event and point in time, a moment, and not eternal.
    .
    In any case, Eternity refers to our experience, and no one experienced the big-bang.
    .
    Michael Ossipoff
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k
    It’s even been suggested that we’re in an infinite eternal multiverse with infinitely-many component sub-universes.)Michael Ossipoff

    Alright, that term "Infinite eternal multiverse" is a term that I got from someone else. In that usage, "eternity" is being used to mean an infinite amount of time (presumably as reckoned in the overall infinite multiverse"), rather than to mean Timelessness.

    I just wanted to clarify that different use of "eternity" (which I don't capitalize when it refers to an infinite amount of time).

    I don't think it matters if our big-bang universe is part of a multiverse, or an infinite eternal multiverse. Metaphysics interests me more than cosmology.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • Mr Bee
    656


    Perhaps I have trouble understanding your scenario, but the idea of someone freezing their own time without freezing the time outside themselves doesn't seem to make sense to me. The examples that people have given seem to involve instances where people's perception of time is slowed down, but that is quite different from being completely frozen. A person can experience a billion years in a second, but not an instant (or whatever the smallest unit of time is, if you believe there is one). The former can be explained away as a difference in processing rates between one person's mind and the rest of the world, but such a phenomenon is quite normal, even occurring in our everyday lives where people's perception of time can slow down during critical moments.

    The only way I can imagine the scenario is if the person is able to pause the world around themselves and the unpause it if they decide to resume their lives (like that episode of the Twilight Zone with the stopwatch), but in that case the answer is simple in that the world itself will be frozen forever without you getting killed at all. However, you said that that isn't what's going on, so to me the only other option would be that the question sounds meaningless. At that point, I can only say that because the question lacks any meaning, then there is no answer to it.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Subjectively, anything's possible - eternity in a moment and a moment in eternity. Objectively, however, it isn't possible because eternity stretches for ever and a moment is but one single instance of time.
  • MPen89
    18
    The idea of someone freezing their own time without freezing the time outside themselves doesn't seem to make sense to me. The examples that people have given seem to involve instances where people's perception of time is slowed down, but that is quite different from being completely frozen.Mr Bee

    The question is; if time slows down for one person but no one else, did it really happen at all?
    It's the same question that you have probably heard of before but in a different way; if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears, does it make any sound?
  • Tammyx
    1
    Eternity can never last a moment,if it does,then it's never eternity
  • BlueBanana
    873
    So how do you solve the paradox?
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k
    Eternity isn't an infinite amount of time.

    Eternity is Timelessness.

    At the end of lives (or the end of this life if there isn't reincarnation), just before perception and experience are completely shut-down at the end, you no longer remember that there was life, identity, time, events, dissatisfaction, risk, menace, lack, incompletion, etc. ...or that there could be such things.

    At that stage of shutdown, of course your body is about to completely shut down. But you don't know that there ever was or could be a body, a life, or time, etc. You've reached Timelessness.

    Your survivors are the people who experience time after your complete shutdown, and of course, for them, there continues to be time, during and after your shutdown.

    Michael Ossipoff
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k
    There's a popular misconception that, after death, we reach "oblivion".

    The time after your death, after the complete shutdown and dissolution of your body, is experienced by your survivors, but obviously not by you.

    Therefore, for the person dying, there's no such thing as oblivion.

    There's no such thing as experiencing not experiencing at all, and you never experience a time after complete shutdown.

    Michael Ossipoff.
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