Quantum physics, which I don't understand, aside, — TheMadFool
governed by fixed natural laws of matter, energy and force. — TheMadFool
Even the roll of a dice or the toss of a coin are governed by laws of mechanics. — TheMadFool
Rather, it's some sort of rough interpretation that helps us make decisions and comprehend what is vastly complex in terms of mechanics. — TheMadFool
I've heard that, for instance, radioactive decay is objectively a chance thing - which atom will decay is entirely random (so they say). However, this too is an issue of our ignorance - — TheMadFool
Also, even if the quantum world is a chance game, it's proven that the macroscopic world, in which we live, is governed by laws which have been mathematically expressed. — TheMadFool
So, is probability an illusion? — TheMadFool
So you're saying that probability is really a knowledge gap, rather than actual probability. Is that right? — MikeL
You know what I think would make life so much easier for people on both sides? To invoke a new force called the life force and give it some Greek letter. — MikeL
That sounds like a good thing. Why hasn't it been embraced and become an area of research? Or has it? — MikeL
That is a BIG aside. — Rich
With quantum physics aside, exactly which laws are you referring to? — Rich
Quantum physics says no, probability is baked in and quantum behavior had been observed at the molecular level. — Rich
You have to read up on quantum theory. — Rich
No, there are no laws which govern everything. — Rich
Well according to biology, the mind is an illusion so everything is an illusion including you. So what do you think about that? — Rich
So you're saying that probability is really a knowledge gap, rather than actual probability. Is that right? — MikeL
Not that big. Have you noticed when you kick a ball that it moves with a certain speed, in a certain direction and with a specific spin - all of which can be calcualted, thus predicted, in Newtonian terms. — TheMadFool
Pick up a science book and you'll see them. Newton's laws, Pascal's law, Boyle's law, etc. etc. — TheMadFool
I'm saying that probability is deeply linked to ignorance. — TheMadFool
What I mean is, first, we assume the existence of a general law that governs a process — TheMadFool
Can you please explain the probabilistic nature of QM to me. Thanks. — TheMadFool
Gravity doesn't apply to all matter? — TheMadFool
Everything is an illusion doesn't make sense. An illusion, to exist, must have a real counterpart. — TheMadFool
This is fine. It is your faith. — Rich
Remember, it only takes one, itsy-bitsy, teeny-weeny probabilistic event anywhere in the universe to eliminate determinism. — Rich
Even the roll of a dice or the toss of a coin are governed by laws of mechanics. That's to say what we commonly interpret as probability is NOT objective probability. Rather, it's some sort of rough interpretation that helps us make decisions and comprehend what is vastly complex in terms of mechanics. — TheMadFool
And that's the way the classical world at human scale in general works. It's all average behaviors stitched together by the laws of probability. — T Clark
Thanks for your input. That's what I mean. As far as the human level of existence is concerned, these probabilistic behaviors, you demonstrated so well, average out deterministically.
So, as we don't exist at an atomic scale, the probabilistic nature of quantum phenomena don't affect us. In other words, we live in a deterministic world. — TheMadFool
Quite the opposite. Natural law is derived from QM, not the other way around.Quantum physics, which I don't understand, aside, the world on the human scale (macroscopic world?) is governed by fixed natural laws of matter, energy and force. — TheMadFool
In a pure Newtonian set of physical rules, this is true.Even the roll of a dice or the toss of a coin are governed by laws of mechanics.
QM does not say it this way. This is interpretive language, which you are free to use, but such language is not QM.I've heard that, for instance, radioactive decay is objectively a chance thing - which atom will decay is entirely random (so they say).
Even in hard deterministic universe without QM, such predictability is easily disproved. Inability to predict has nothing to do with determinism or lack of it. You seem pretty bent on a different stance.He is restating a 17th century philosophical faith that someday science will discover the Laws of Nature that will enable scientists to predict everything. — Rich
Wait, what if the law above is a probabilistic one? It means the mathematical model has probability baked in. Interpretation of that model on the other hand is open. There are multiple consistent (valid) interpretations, and if it is meaningful that one of them is more correct, then that's where the ignorance comes in: There is no way to choose among valid interpretations, so the typical course of action is to choose based on what you want to be true.I'm saying that probability is deeply linked to ignorance. The process by which we conclude whether or not a certain process/thing is probabilistic or not is exclusion.
What I mean is, first, we assume the existence of a general law that governs a process. If we find one, we name the law and express it mathematically. Only if not, are we warranted to think the process/entity is probabilistic. — TheMadFool
So, is probability an illusion? — TheMadFool
Even in hard deterministic universe without QM, such predictability is easily disproved. Inability to predict has nothing to do with determinism or lack of it. You seem pretty bent on a different stance. — noAxioms
Faith? My statements, hopefully, are based on facts. Also, what are your beliefs based on? — TheMadFool
Laws don't govern worlds. It's that when humans investigate certain defined worlds, usually in a laboratory or by imagining some parts of the world away to focus better on the problem at hand, we can make a good stab at understanding how they work, and some of the rules we call 'laws'. — mcdoodle
That's exactly the problem. Probability is arrived upon through two processes:
1. Approximation of complex deterministic processes e.g. coin tosses and dice rolls
2. By a process of elimination i.e. we first look for deterministic processes and, upon finding none, conclude the phenomena to be probabilistic. And this elimination method can never be exhaustive - there's always the possibility that we've overlooked something. See the flaw? — TheMadFool
There is no such thing as precise prediction of anything. And all Laws are just approximations that are practical. I have no idea why they are called Laws. They are just practical equations. — Rich
They can determine the distance from a point on the earth to the moon within centimeters. — T Clark
Who is clinging to these old ideas of perfect predictability? Anybody who knows their mathematics, never mind their physics?If course. Old ideas die hard. There is no such thing as precise prediction of anything. — Rich
Materialist-Determinist is a philosophical stance, not a scientific one. Science does not depend on the stance, even if some scientists hold the stance in faith, as you do whatever yours might be.Materialists-Determinists who view themselves as objective scientists seem to have a very difficult time with their faith. — Rich
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