Does the need to accept responsibility knowing there is no spiritual get out of jail free card make us more virtuous or does it cause us to drown in guilt and despair? — MysticMonist

It is often said that many of Plato's most important teachings weren't written down, and I don't recall much on this particular theme (although as I have said, my knowledge of Plato is sketchy).

One term associated with this theme in Platonism is metanoia, meaning literally a 'transformative change of heart'. Along with a lot else, it was absorbed into Christian theology and given a Christian meaning , simply as 'repentance', but I have the feeling that in the original tradition, the faculty of reason played a much greater role than in the subsequent Christian rendition of the idea. But beyond that, all I could recommend is reading up on the notion of 'metanoia', transformative change through contemplation, although I think you will find almost all the references will come from Greek (as distinct from Latin) Christianity.

As for the general question, my two cents' worth would be: first, own your experience. Second, you can't change the past, but you can change its meaning, by what you do now.

Now that I'm an official Platonist, I realize that I don't always choose to be virtuous or just. — MysticMonist

Isn't this a contradiction?

how does one repent for misdeeds? — MysticMonist

For me repentance requires empathy. One must be able to put oneself in the other's shoes. Feel and experience, to the same degree, what the other (victim?) went through.

What must follow, then, is an attempt to correct the wrong. To undo the damage is best but, where impossible, compensation is acceptable.

These two - emapthy and redress - are the essence of repentance.

Of course, it's not always perfect. Emapthy may be nonexistent but some form of correction may be done. Sometimes, empathy is there but no recourse for correction/compensation.

Anyway, the perfect form of repentance requires both empathy and corrective measures.

For anyone who has a philosophical ethics and doesn't believe in sacrificial atonement nor Divine justification (or doesn't believe in God at all) how does one repent for misdeeds? — MysticMonist

This probably isn't Platonist:
No repentance or apology. Acknowledge your failure, make things right to the extent you can, and do your best not to do it again.

Helpful responses, thanks.
Owning the experience is right or acknowledging the failure. It's a bit of a change of mindset to really take ownership of ones actions and character. Of course this should be done even if there is a religious God that hands out grace.

How can you acknowledge your failure if you don't feel repentance? The latter is an emotional response to the acknowledgement.

Is God infinitely merciful and forgiving?

And, is condemnation eternal conscious torment?

How can you acknowledge your failure if you don't feel repentance? The latter is an emotional response to the acknowledgement. — TimeLine

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and trying to learn how to deal with the many mistakes I've made that hurt someone. Taking responsibility is not an emotional response. It's a surrender - opening yourself up to the consequences of your actions. Repentance to me means guilt. To me, guilt is a way of avoiding responsibility. Guilt can be forgiven, responsibility cannot. Does repentance mean something other than feeling guilty to you?

God infinitely merciful and forgiving? — MountainDwarf

This is a good question. So yes, God is infinitely merciful (Spinoza) and in fact human mercy is a finite of expression of His infinite mercy.

So if there is a hell then that's because it is more merciful or just or kind or good to send a sinful person to hell than allow them into heaven. Perhaps because Universalism denies human freedom? Or perhaps it is not be merciful to the victims of sin, whose blood cries out to the LORD?

I think it's most likely there is no eternal hell and I'm a universalist. The classic universalist argument is very persuasive to me. As a parent I have two sons, how could any of them ever do anything so terrible to have me wish them eternal torment? My love is an imperfect love and God's love is perfect. Also see the parable of giving a child a snake in Luke 11.
If you believe in Christian atonement thru Jesus, which I don't, then did Jesus only die for one list but not others or put conditions on dying only for those meet them? If God is all powerful then how can we as humans oppose His will to save us? All our sin is simpley the No to God's Yes (Karl Barth)

Perhaps because Universalism denies human freedom? — MysticMonist

I think it does to a certain extent. If eventually all decisions lead to God then God is the orchestrater of all actions. Meaning that man has essentially no choice in his or her salvation.

As a parent I have two sons, how could any of them ever do anything so terrible to have me wish them eternal torment? — MysticMonist

Consider this philosophically. What if, like Cain and Abel, one son killed the other?

If you believe in Christian atonement thru Jesus, which I don't, then did Jesus only die for one list but not others or put conditions on dying only for those meet them? If God is all powerful then how can we as humans oppose His will to save us? — MysticMonist

Right, if human decision is no objective how is there salvation at all?

God also has the right to relinquish his power as well.

Cain and Abel, one son killed the other? — MountainDwarf

You make more good points. As terrible as that would be from God's perspective Abel is raised in heaven and not truly dead, in a sense Cain only offended God by his act. I think if I would forgive even a murdering son if the slain son was revived. At least I wouldn't eternally damn Cain.

As for salvation, it depends what we mean by the word. I'm not really concerned about salvation from hell. I sense God's presence and love for me and I don't worry about my eternal fate. I also know it is God alone who judges us and I cannot know anyone else's fate other than to assume they are loved in the same way I am.
For me, salvation is in the present and is an illumination by God and is a liberation from the psychological anxiety and suffering as well as the strength to practice virtue.

On a side note, you've been discussing ontology both here and on the ontological proof thread. So I thought of Liebnitz's argument that since God is all good and all perfect then this must be the best of all possible worlds. The question about hell and God's mercy is related. Yet. I don't think a world with childhood cancer and genoicide could possibly be the best of all possible world. It is only the best world ontologicaly and from an eternal perspective not from our human subjective perspective. The world is "perfect" because God exists and He sustains creation with His presence. Existence is perfect. But human life sometimes sucks.

A merciful and nice god of the Jewish faith is completely mute. There is no afterlife in the Jewish faith tradition, no hell, no heaven, so the only thing that keeps the followers of the Jewish religions from sinning (not crime... big difference), is their love of god, and not their fear of god.

This is unimaginable by the Christian sin-standards, where you earn your just reward or proper punishment on either end of the behavioural scale of how you succeeded in your endeavours to appease your God in this life.

I sense God's presence and love for me and I don't worry about my eternal fate. — MysticMonist

Happy to hear you've found your peace.

Yet. I don't think a world with childhood cancer and genoicide could possibly be the best of all possible world. — MysticMonist

Right.

The world is "perfect" because God exists and He sustains creation with His presence. Existence is perfect. — MysticMonist

I have heard that Jews actually believe in a form of Pantheism/Panentheism? Is this true?

is no afterlife in the Jewish faith tradition, no hell, no heaven — szardosszemagad

I think you are thinking of ancient Judaism or of the Sadducees who didn't believe in an afterlife.
Hassidic Jews do, they believe in " a world to come" but it's not quite the same as Christian heaven and they almost never talk about hell.
I couldn't find a concise article about the world to come that doesn't go too far down the Kabbalah rabbit hole. Maimonides one of the greatest Jewish thinkers of all time includes life after death in his thirteen principles.

Disclaimer: I'm not a Jew nor ever converted to Judaism. I have a deep love of Judaism and for a while I was a noahide or gentile follower of Judaism. But I'm reveaulating that, I'm not sure about if polytheistism is really idolatry or if it is helpful to continue to identify God with the Abrahamic diety necessarily. Maybe it's best to treat all religions equally.

I have heard that Jews actually believe in a form of Pantheism/Panentheism? Is this true? — MountainDwarf

Yes. Hassidic Jews are Panentheists. God sustains all creation with His loving kindness.

Now Spinoza is almost a pantheist. He says existence is all modes of God's being. I'm tempted to agree with him, but I'm still contemplating it. Spinoza was kicked out of his Jewish community.

Now Spinoza is almost a pantheist. He says existence is all modes of God's being. I'm tempted to agree with him, but I'm still contemplating it. Spinoza was kicked out of his Jewish community. — MysticMonist

So it's, God sustains everything vs. God is in everything?

God sustains everything vs. God is in everythin — MountainDwarf

What does "in" mean? (That's rhetorical) The Kabbalists, which inform a lot of Judaism, say there is a divine spark (the Yud) in creation. They say the letters of the Torah are hidden in the world. I think they are normally classified as panentheism, God is in everything, yeah. But it's mysticism so it's not meant in my opinion to be too doctrinal. In theory the only doctrine in Judaism is the Shema "Hear oh Israel, the Lord is Your God, the Lord is One"

Since Judaism came up and I espouse Truth in all revelations, is there a difference between Abrahamic Monotheism and other monotheisms (Zoroastrianism or Saviate/Shivaism in Hinduism or maybe a theistic reading of Taoism). Is God always God? Or is one monotheistic God true and the others impostors? Is polytheism just looking at different aspects of One God?

Since Judaism came up and I espouse Truth in all revelations, is there a difference between Abrahamic Monotheism and other monotheisms (Zoroastrianism or Saviate/Shivaism in Hinduism or maybe a theistic reading of Taoism). Is God always God? Or is one monotheistic God true and the others impostors? Is polytheism just looking at different aspects of One God? — MysticMonist

My guess is you're Reformed Judaism?

My guess is you're Reformed Judaism? — MountainDwarf

I was noahide for a while. A gentile follower of Judaism. Still has a big place in my heart.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

I go with my family to an episcopal church. I lost my faith and ended up trying religion after religion. It's all cool now that I'm a Platonist though, it's One Source for all of it.

I was noahide for a while. A gentile follower of Judaism. Still has a big place in my heart.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah — MysticMonist

I have seen these before. Genesis chapter 9 is where the rabbis claim they are, right?

I go with my family to an episcopal church. I lost my faith and ended up trying religion after religion. It's all cool now that I'm a Platonist though, it's One Source for all of it. — MysticMonist

I took a quiz online that labeled me a Platonist. Not sure if that's entirely accurate. I also got results to a quiz one time that I was most like Confucius.

Genesis chapter 9 is where the rabbis claim they are, right? — MountainDwarf

Yes. The Rabbis say so you can be a gentile and if you follow the 7 laws you can be considered righteous and you are allowed to participate in limited ways in Jewish life.
Not all 7 laws are there in the text.

Long story short, I was probably going to convert but my wife is Christian so that wasn't going to work out. I started religion hoping. She doesn't care about philosophy though, no one does. (Except you wonderful people of course)

(Except you wonderful people of course) — MysticMonist

(Y)

Long story short, I was probably going to convert but my wife is Christian so that wasn't going to work out. I started religion hoping. She doesn't care about philosophy though, no one does. — MysticMonist

Sorry to hear.

I think you are thinking of ancient Judaism or of the Sadducees who didn't believe in an afterlife. — MysticMonist

I am sorry, but I'm actually thinking of a Woody Allen movie, in which he talks to his dead father in the netherworld, who says to Woody, "son, get me out of here." "Where do you want to go, dad?" "Well, we have no such thing as heaven... so take me to a Chinese restaurant, will you please."

Now that you mention it, however, the Sadducees sound to have a highly sadductive ideology...

Along these lines:
Repentance has to do with the relationship that holds between justice, punishment and forgiveness. Justice is constructed by man, its transgression leads to punishment and what that punishment entails depends on the law and the contriteness of the repentant for their misdeed. The result of this process is forgiveness.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and trying to learn how to deal with the many mistakes I've made that hurt someone. Taking responsibility is not an emotional response. It's a surrender - opening yourself up to the consequences of your actions. Repentance to me means guilt. To me, guilt is a way of avoiding responsibility. Guilt can be forgiven, responsibility cannot. Does repentance mean something other than feeling guilty to you? — T Clark

I once thought I loved a young man but I mostly loved him as a friend or really wanted to be friends and for a long time I was hurting at why he was cruel to me. I saw him recently that evoked within me a sense of confusion; perhaps more of an awakening that reminded me that there was a reality I was unable to see beyond my own imagination and that I was trapped in for a long time. But my attempt to survive made me imagine that he was my friend, that he cared for me like how I cared for him to make myself believe that there was one person alive that would not abandon me like how my family did; and it was that I was really hurting about.

So, several times he walked right past me and happily ignored me and that hurt me enough to wake me up and realise that he does not care if I were dead or alive, that in fact his cruel behaviour was just that and not some external show when secretly he loved me as I made myself believe. I was slammed with a reality that finally helped me recover from the hurt and I know this because a couple of months ago I decided to have a look at the social network site of his partner, a thing that I would never do as it stands against my principles, but something compelled me after so long. And when I saw her, I thought she was the most adorable thing ever. I realised he was just a child, having fun and their happiness strangely enough made me happy and I could never have expected anything more from just a little boy. He did a lot of wrong, but I was able to let go and that was when I felt my time for recovery is almost at an end.

It is not about him hurting me, you see, neither is it about getting revenge but it is about the mistake I made toward myself and the acknowledgement of my wrong-doing. Penitence is not guilt but an admission and an authentic one not masked by our imagination that enables us to take one step closer toward being virtuous and wise, to form a genuine moral consciousness. At the time, where he was no longer around, I cried and cried and that was my emotional response to gradually becoming accustomed to the reality that I am alone.

I am still in the process of fully healing, but I am definitely very close to transforming into someone much stronger, much more independent than I ever was because I had the balls to face this existential reality.

I am sorry, — szardosszemagad

I did more digging. Few things in Judaism are simple. A typical Torah study group can very academic even. The faith puts a high value on intellectual study by even typical members.

You ask an Hassidic (Orthodox Jew) about the afterlife and you might get a lot of Kabbalah in response that will make your head spin. It does to me. The quick answer is yes there is a heaven.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/80981/jewish/The-World-To-Come.htm
Here's a reform source that seems to say yes and maybe and we don't really talk about it
https://reformjudaism.org/judaism-what-believed-happen-someone-after-they-die

Woody Allen's parents would surely have been liberal, reform Jews. There's an old joke that you ask 3 Jews and get 5 opinions.

Does that help at all?

Sorry to hear. — MountainDwarf

It's okay! I like the Zen teaching that religion is fingers (the religion) point at the moon (Truth). It's not about the finger or religion. We've touched on that in asking about are the Jews the chosen people. I'm tempted to say no or only in a limited sense. If the LORD of Israel is the one, true God that has chosen Israel, then what about a devout Pure Land Buddhist who prays to Amidah Buddha? Do their prayers get unanswered because they are misaddressed? The intention is to pray and worship the real God of reality. No one ever intends to knowingly pray to fake or imposter Gods. That's why I want to take a philosophic approach and bypass the revelation issues.

Penitence is not guilt but an admission and an authentic one not masked by our imagination that enables us to take one step closer toward being virtuous and wise, to form a genuine moral consciousness. — TimeLine

That's a wonderful response to my original question. Thanks!

Penitence is not guilt but an admission and an authentic one not masked by our imagination that enables us to take one step closer toward being virtuous and wise, to form a genuine moral consciousness. — TimeLine

I think you and I come from different places. I have lived my life in fear of what people think of me. To me, the feeling of responsibility is cold and bitter, and it feels good. Maybe the best thing I've ever felt.

As for being virtuous and wise, my vision is different - Peace.

for being virtuous and wise, my vision is different - Peace. — T Clark

I'm curious as to what that vision is. I really liked TimeLine's description of an authentic admission caused by a realistic view of oneself that leads step by step towards virtue. Even though I believe in Divine illumination, this is the same process, God (or our soul) only calls to us, we have to answer and correct our course as we go.

I'm curious as to what that vision is. — MysticMonist

Sorry, I was being telegraphic (if anyone remembers what that means.) The vision is peace for myself.

I don't disagree with @TimeLine's path, but she and I have different histories and hearts.