• Uneducated Pleb
    38
    Descartes famous epiphany "Cogito, ergo sum" stands as the end result of his titanic struggle against the ancient and unanswered query of the sceptic - How do you know what you claim to know? How do you know you are not being deceived? Descartes threw away all of his beliefs in order to peel away the deceptions and arrived at the very bedrock of his web of beliefs. The basic belief that he exists as a thinking being which cannot be doubted, for in order to doubt it there must be a thinking being that exists in order to doubt.

    I think, therefore I am.

    But, did he really answered the sceptic who stands guard at the gates of the Citadel? There have been all sorts of holes poked into that statement throughout the history of philosophy since, like - If only thinking beings exist, then rocks and other inanimate material does not exist. The thinker that falls asleep no longer exists until they wake up and think again. And so on. Still, it was an epic and monumental task to arrive at something, anything, that could beat the sceptic on their own turf.

    Let me next switch gears for a moment and talk about the Sorites Paradox - the Argument of the Heap. In this paradox (usually associated with the philosophy of language and as a measure of the vagueness of terms and of the nature of language itself) the usual presentation of it is as follows:
    You are beholding a heap of sand piled as high as your waist.
    You take one grain of sand away.
    Do you still have pile of sand?
    (repeat until you have 1 grain of sand left - how can 1 grain be considered a "heap" or "pile"?)

    One can of course build the argument the same way by counting up - 1 grain of sand is not a heap, nor is 2, but eventually there is enough sand to call it a "heap", and so forth.

    When applying the paradox to language we can see that it measures the vagueness of terms and their exact meanings (or lack thereof). It uncovers in our thinking the way we describe our world through language and if/when language creates a mental construct which is then held as a representative example of X within the world. If I can apply the Sorites against a pile of sand in order to show that a "pile" of sand actually does not exist (however X number of sand grains in very close proximity at a certain time can exist), then I can also apply that sort of reasoning to descriptions such as "house", or "job", or "world", or even an "I".

    Can you go through your typical day with a sort of "Sorites Spectacles" and see the differences between what can "exist" and what cannot "exist" with these glasses on? Similar to Wittgenstein's "Beetle in a Box" scenario with language, when we look at a "house" and communicate about a "house" there can be disagreement on what a "house" is versus what is being perceived. Mentally, we each have a different conception of a "typical" house. Visually/physically if we remove one room from the house with a wrecking ball we still have a house - and repeat until we no longer have any walls or a roof. At what point does the "house" exist or no longer exist?

    Perhaps a bit unimportant, as the differences may revolve around minor adustments to definitions and so forth, but can there be instances where the heap completely changes the way the world can even be regarded either linguistically or cognitively? If a "house" can be re-arranged to the basic bundle of properties such as "A collection of atoms arranged in a certain way at the same time and endures in such a way that it alters and maintains different atmospheric conditions within the open spaces of its boundaries than what occurs outside the boundaries." In short, "house" is a convenient designator for that concept, a shortened description that is meant to cross the boundaries and constraints to another mind in order to communicate. (I realize that even the description "collection of atoms....etc" can have the Sorites applied to each of its elements as well and with various outcomes, but you get the drift).

    Enter the Buddha, who states in "The Path" of the Dhammapada the following:
    All created things are impermanent.
    All the elements of Being are Non-Self.
    He relates his version of "folk psychology" in which he outlines the skandhas which are the shifting and impermanent bundle of elements whose aggregate is called a personality, or "Self". For the Buddha - the "self", or "I", does not exist as his enlightenment contained the revelation that we are naught but a constantly changing collection of body parts, thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and sensations in a certain place and at a certain time and each element as well as the ever-changing aggregate endure only for a limited time. When taken together with the statement in the Dhammapada "All the elements of Being are Non-Self" we can see that the the Buddha denies the reality of "I" as it is set or bundle of properties only. It moves the concept of a self from a monolithic, concrete structure to the interaction of elements and actions which are not "self" or "I".

    In short, the Buddha appears to have preceded Eubulides of Miletus in the invention of the Sorites by almost a century and that Buddhism in general (as a philosophy) seems to have taken the Sorites approach even further to the point of a sort of metaphysical litmus test of what can and what does not exist in an ontological way as well as what is and what is not a "convenient designator" as far as linguistic description goes. I note the word "appears" here with an earmark - we know that so much knowledge has been lost that we have no idea if Greek thought on the matter also took a similar approach. (At least I don't know as I am not an expert on pre-Socratic philosophers)

    In Buddhist metaphysical philosophy, "Emptiness", or denial of the intrinsic reality or nature of things, is the same application of tearing apart all elements of a "thing" to search for its "thing-ness" and coming up empty, so to speak. Buddhist emptiness denies any essence, or nature, or intrinsic reality of things in the world. So, along with the "self", Buddhism denies true existence to just about anything and everything.

    So, let me bring this back around to Descartes. If we rest assured that "I think, therefore I am" then our base is once again knocked out from underneath us as we have uncovered, thanks to the Buddha and Eubulides, that within that statement lies a hidden premise which appears to be false - that there is in fact an "I" that thinks. "I" is a shortened description of the collection of elements (whose relations constantly shift and change and come into and go out of existence as time passes) which is then represented with "I". Thinking is only one element of what is considered "I". Can my thinking happen without my form? Can my thinking happen without a perception or sensation or referent to start the thought? Does one only exist when one thinks? And what does "think" break down into for its elements?

    Only one of those elements of "I" is brought to bear in Descartes epiphany - thinking and thought. Really what Descartes could only have said was "Thought, therefore thinking is." or "Thinking, therefore Thought is". I suspect that it would not allay the suspicion that, if there is a thinking being called "I", then how can I know I am not just a single, momentary thought that masquerades as a "being" for the briefest of moment that it takes for the thought to occur?

    Minor quibble and variation? Maybe. But does that mean that the Buddha and the progeny of his philosophy actually answered the sceptics with an unassailable tenet that can withstand the same scrutiny which has felled Descartes answer? Was Eubulides on the path to "Enlightenment" as would have been recognized by the Buddha? According to Seneca, the Heap Paradox wasn't even worth bothering with, but to the Buddha and his schools of philosophy, it was the first thing to engage in when looking for reality.

    I would also ask this - when applied to the existence or "emptiness" of self, does the Sorites (or Buddhist Emptiness) realign and better define what it means to be a consciousness? Can a thought be aware of itself? When does a "heap" of thoughts become a consciousness? I suspect, as the Buddha did and taught, that consciousness and self is the set of relations of elements that shifts and changes over the short duration in which they are able to relate. And as I go through my day with my new perception of my own consciousness as this bundle of perceptions, thoughts, etc., instead of a unified and concrete "I", does that mean that the bundle of elements ("I") that interacts with and relates to another bundle ("You"), that once again the elements that are "consciousness" has shifted so that "consciousness that is I and/or you" must also include both bundles of elements since they are now interacting? In other words, does it support some sort of constrained "interacting-collective consciousness"? It also seems to deny panpsychism as the "skandhas" are not self, but within specific relations of skandhas, there can be the properties of a state which can be shortened to the designator word "consciousness".

    There was a great article by a blogger that seems to have captured the next part of this line of thinking as it concerns a "relation of elements" to be called a "thing"
    here but you can also find a similar approach in scientific thinking at The Edge under Max Tegmark's "Substrate Independence" article.

    That's it. All I got for today. Appreciate any feedback or thoughts. Thanks for reading!
  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    this is an interesting line of thought, but packs far too much in to a single OP. I had started responding in some detail, but just to deal with the section on Descartes would have taken an essay in its own right. But there is one line of response which you might find interesting.

    There is in fact a relationship between Buddhism and the Western philosophical tradition, which has been recognized by some scholars, but is not regarded as established. This is the argument that Pyrrho of Elis, the founder of pyrrhonian scepticism, travelled to India (actually, probably Gandhara, then a centre of Buddhist culture, straddling modern-day Afghanistan and Pakistan) during the time of Alexander the Great. When he returned, he brought back the teachings of Mahayana Buddhists which formed the basis of his 'scepticism'. But if you go into the details, what is meant by 'scepticism' is not at all like modern scepticism. The key term is 'epoche', meaning 'suspension of judgement regarding that which is not evident' (a term later revived by Husserl). But the argument is that this is the equivalent of the Buddhist 'nirodha', meaning 'cessation' or 'stilling', which is associated with yogic meditation and 'samadhi' (trance states) whereby the discursive activities of the mind are stilled.

    (In this sense, Buddhism itself is actually a sceptical tradition, which strikes us as odd, because it is understood as a religion, and we are inclined to think that scepticism and religion are mutually exclusive categories. But that is, I would suggest, very much an outcome of the Western intellectual tradition.)

    One of the papers on this connection is Pyrrho and India, Everard Flintoff (that copy is firewalled, but it is available online elsewhere). There is a later book called Pyrrhonism: How the Ancient Greeks Reinvented Buddhism, Adrian Kuzminski, which I’ve never managed to get my hands on, and a still later one called Greek Buddha, by Christopher Beckwith, however that, I think, is very much a pop title.

    In any case, I think there is a defensible argument about this influence. It is also discussed in great detail in a rather offbeat book called The Shape of Ancient Thought, by art historian Thomas McEvilly.

    As regards the meaning of anātman (no-self) in Buddhism - it is a subtle subject. Notice that at the outset, the Buddha doesn’t deny there is a self - but he also doesn’t affirm it. When asked point blank, ‘does the self exist?’, the Buddha is silent 1. Quite why, is a deep question - perhaps what is called in connection to Platonic philosophy, an aporetic question, a question which doesn’t have a y/n answer.

    But in any case, the question of agency and subjecthood in relation to the Buddhist teaching on anātman is, as I say, a deep one, but don’t start off by believing that the Buddha simply taught ‘there is no self’, because that is not the case, and in fact, constitutes what is classified as ‘a nihilistic view’ in Buddhist philosophy.

    Then finally as regards the sense in which ‘things exist’ - that is of course the fundamental question of ontology, which, like metaphysics, is often deprecated in today’s academic philosophy. But again, many more issues to consider, that’s enough for one post.
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k
    Tegmark
    .
    In the article that you linked to, Tegmark says:
    .
    …consciousness is the way information feels when being processed in certain complex ways.
    .
    There’s an astounding amount of confusion about consciousness. The Eliminative Physicalists almost have the right idea, but take it so much too far that it becomes just a different kind of nonsense. But there’s nothing wrong with Dennet saying that he and his experience don’t really exist, because “real “ and “exist” aren’t metaphysically defined, and anyone can and does use them to mean whatever he wants them to mean.
    .
    Consciousness is nothing other than the property of being a purposefully-responsive device (and having complexity and similarity to the speaker that make the speaker feel like calling the device (usually an animal) “conscious”).
    .
    The experience of a purposefully-responsive device is its surroundings and events, in the context of the purpose built into that purposefully-responsive device.
    .
    To continue the quote of Tegmark:
    .
    We don’t yet know what principles information processing needs to obey to be conscious, but concrete proposals have been made that neuroscientists are trying to test experimentally.
    .
    Ah yes, maybe science is close to solving the Hard Problem of Consciousness! :D
    .
    Buddhism:
    .
    Enter the Buddha, who states in "The Path" of the Dhammapada the following:
    All created things are impermanent.
    All the elements of Being are Non-Self.
    He relates his version of "folk psychology" in which he outlines the skandhas which are the shifting and impermanent bundle of elements whose aggregate is called a personality, or "Self". For the Buddha - the "self", or "I", does not exist as his enlightenment contained the revelation that we are naught but a constantly changing collection of body parts, thoughts, emotions, perceptions, and sensations in a certain place and at a certain time and each element as well as the ever-changing aggregate endure only for a limited time.
    .
    It isn’t quite clear how or why (at least some) Buddhists take that to mean that they don’t exist. Not only do you have the same name and fingerprints that you had yesterday, but you identify as the same person, which you are, in a meaningful sense (not least because of your identification as the same person).
    .
    Yes, at the end of lives (or at the end of this life, if you don’t believe in reincarnation), there will come a time when you won’t know that there ever was such a thing as identity, time, or events. But, for now, you’re you, just like you were yesterday. Sorry, Buddhists.
    .
    With various persuasions, there are things on which I agree with them, as well as things on which I don’t agree with them:
    .
    In Buddhist metaphysical philosophy, "Emptiness", or denial of the intrinsic reality or nature of things, is the same application of tearing apart all elements of a "thing" to search for its "thing-ness" and coming up empty, so to speak. Buddhist emptiness denies any essence, or nature, or intrinsic reality of things in the world. So, along with the "self", Buddhism denies true existence to just about anything and everything.
    .
    When (at least some) Buddhists speak of “Emptiness”, which at least some Buddhists interpret as there not really being anything, I agree in a way, because it’s evident that what there metaphysically is consists of abstract logical facts, and complex inter-referring systems of them—such as your life-experience possibility-story.
    .
    (Oh yes, do I misunderstand what Buddhists mean? Sure, I must admit that I don’t know what they mean. They seem to have many different, somewhat conflicting, versions of it, accusing eachother of not understanding Buddhism. )
    .
    So, anyway, as Materialists mean “something”, there isn’t something, and there’s metaphysically only nothing (no objectively-existent physical world, “stuff “ or other objectively-existent things).
    .
    But I don’t call that “nothing”. This life-experience possibility-story, and the possibility-world in which it’s set, are real for us, because it’s our life and its setting. …real in the context of our life. That’s enough for me to call it real.
    .
    Therefore, I don’t share (at least some of) the Buddhists’ emphasis on Emptiness, or there being nothing. Sure, as the Materialist means “something”, there’s nothing, but I’m not a Materialist.
    .
    Michael Ossipoff
  • _db
    3.6k
    Very interesting ideas about Pyrrhonism and Buddhism, and the Husserlian epoche. That book you linked looks super interesting.
  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    If you like that, check this out.. I bought it from Amazon, although admit to not making much headway yet, because it’s one of those books in which half of every page is footnotes. But I’m very interested in the general idea, which I can’t help but think is related to the above. (Incidentally, Katia Maria Vogt, the author, is also the author of the article on Ancient Scepticism in SEP.)
  • BlueBanana
    873
    apologies for such a short reply, but the argument seems to rely on a specific interpretation of the solution to the Sorites paradox. This is probably the first time I've heard of the idea that a heap of sand doesn't exist because one can't draw the line between the states in which the sand forms a heap or not.
  • Uneducated Pleb
    38
    As regards the meaning of anātman (no-self) in Buddhism - it is a subtle subject. Notice that at the outset, the Buddha doesn’t deny there is a self - but he also doesn’t affirm it. When asked point blank, ‘does the self exist?’, the Buddha is silent 1.Wayfarer

    Agreed that it is very subtle and nuanced position. From my experience and learning in the philosophy it is very similar to what I wrote about the concept of a "house" as well as the comparison to Wittgenstein's "beetle in a box". We can call a "self" a collection of properties that are arbitrarily chosen, but those properties are constantly changing both in time and in relation to one another as well as the framing of the properties by the observer as the defining characteristics.

    In the sutta you used for reference, the contrast between the last 2 paragraphs is where we can see the key to the Buddha's response to the query "Is there a self?". Let me see if I can line it up -
    " If I...were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all
    phenomena are not-self?"
    "And if I...were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more
    bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'"

    Here, from my reading, there are a few things going on. He is stating that there is knowledge of all phenomena as not-self (from other suttas and sources we can read that "phenomena" as it relates to people includes perception, consciousness, emotion, form, etc.) . He is also stating that were he to answer the question, he would first have to acknowledge a construct-concept in order to verify or deny its existence and for the questioner that continues the clinging to a reified way of thinking.

    In this one instance of being directly asked by a practitioner who is "on the path", he remains silent when asked because of its context. Here are two (of my perceived) reasons -
    First - one must arrive at the result of "all phenomena as being not-self" (specifically in regards to the list of phenomena that is seen as constituting a person) and then reassemble, as a way of being, the idea that a "self" as normally referred to can exist, but as a construct or "convenient designator". To use an anology - we can say that a "wave" does not exist in the unconventional way as there is no "wave" inherent in the material that makes up the wave. But to say that the wave does not exist is nihilistic (and false) in the conventional sense, simply for the reason that we can watch the wave break upon the shore, we can even measure its volume, speed, force, hear, feel, and watch it, and so forth. But when we go looking for the "wave" within each molecule of water, or air, or whatever the substrate is, we do not find it within its elements. So how, or in what way, can we say that the "wave" does or does not exist? We can't when it is framed one way, but we can say the "wave" exists in another way - as an aggregate of phenomena that are in a particular, impermanent relation with each other as well as the rest of the ocean, air, land, observer, etc.

    Second, if one is asking the question to someone else outright, one has not realized the first part, and one is clinging to the idea of "self" as a single reified construct or inherent essence. The nuance of how "self" is seen to exist is not yet realized or otherwise beyond the set of the practitioners current capability. To answer outright for that type of questioner would be to hinder their (in this case Vacchagotta's) eventual release from the clinging to the reified-construct-as-self. From the point of view of the one who realizes "no self", the questioner is asking from a place where the self is a concrete thing, which either exists or it doesn't. To go back to my wave anaology - if our questioner asked "Does the wave exist or not?" the teacher's choice of responses would be limited because the affirmative or negative first assumes the particular construct/concept in the same way as the questioner in order to affirm or deny it, therefore would only confuse or cause pain since the questioner only sees a singular concept called a "wave".

    That is my (current) understanding. Would you agree with that way of thinking?

    When I place this together with Descartes "I think, therefore I am." what I am underlining here is that his foundation against the scepticism of his own existence, he takes "thinking" as the concrete or inherent "I". As the Buddha states here "Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.' And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.'"

    I used the "consciousness" portion of the entry as a stand-in for "think", though we can use the "perception" entry or the "feeling" or "determination", etc.

    There is a list of hidden premises in the way that Descartes chose the words "think" in relation to "am", which led to its eventual downfall. imho. I would equate Descartes conclusion to Vacchagotta's question with Descartes relying on thinking or thought (in this case, thinking as doubt) as being the inherent "self" that exists in the context of "I am".
  • Uneducated Pleb
    38
    Yes, at the end of lives (or at the end of this life, if you don’t believe in reincarnation), there will come a time when you won’t know that there ever was such a thing as identity, time, or events. But, for now, you’re you, just like you were yesterday. Sorry, Buddhists.Michael Ossipoff

    Hi - appreciate your post, thank you.

    I wanted to touch on these parts of your piece. Perhaps the rest of my potential postings need the context. I do not believe in the reincarnation of a soul or essence, etc. I would hesitate to call myself a materialist but on many positions I do side with them and so have been accused of being one.

    What I read within the Buddhist works I am familiar with is this - in regards to say, the actions we take, they are usually based on how we initiate action or respond to anothers action. How we initiate or respond in action depends upon our conditioning and what environment our conditioning finds itself being expressing in. When death occurs (death is an umbrella word for me, one with many elements) how we have acted in the past is conserved (invoking conservation of information laws as a stand-in concept) as they have resulted in others' responses, initiations, etc. as well as environmentally conserved ones.

    For example:
    The plastic cup I threw out carelessly ended up killing a seagull because it ate it - therefore my "karma" is the result that the seagull dies (though it does not end there, that is only the most direct response for that one action temporally) - OR - I acted angrily to a stranger's mistake of stepping on my foot in the subway. That angry response reinforces a way of acting for that person to other strangers on the subway. If I died later that afternoon - my "karma" is the way that my actions reinforced anothers way of responding as they continued their life. Consider me agreeing with Doug Hofstadter here and drawing a parallel with some Buddhist philosophical thinking that the "model" of who we are lives on in a way in the minds of others, as well as a physical record of your existence within the environment (your bones, your plastic cup you threw out, etc).

    Quick word about "my conditioning" as well - conditioning is that way or the aggregate states of being that is expressed currently through the results of past experiences, training, genetics, status, parental guidance, friendships, education (or lack thereof), environment, etc. Am I my conditioning?

    I would also like to invite you to doubt your assertion that "for now, you’re you, just like you were yesterday.". I would like to list a few reasons why we can doubt that at certain levels -
    1. My cells are not all the same as they were yesterday at this time. Ones still operating are now older and riddled with the effects of getting older, others have died, others are brand new today but with some potential genetic difference due to errors or the environment.
    2. I have since had more and different experiences from this time yesterday which, at the very least subconsciously, have changed the aggregate of how I think and act. Maybe it is subtle, but every experience changes us as there is information that has been added about, for, and to my existence.
    3. If I burned all the tips of my fingers off - I would no longer have the same fingerprints, so am I still "me"? Are my fingerprints me? My hair color? My biological age?
    4. What constitutes the "now" in the "for now, you're you"? Was it then? Is it now when I am writing this or then - when I wrote the first post? Now is one word that is a convenient designator of a subjectively defined moment in time. (visions of the replay Spaceballs here)
    5. If I was in an accident and suffered damage to my frontal cortex, or damage to my amygdala, or my hippocampus so that my behaviour was no longer typical of my previous days - am I no longer "me"? I would no longer be able to control behaviour, or regulate emotion to the same degree, or perhaps not even remember that there was a "yesterday". Are my memories "me"? My emotions? My plans to tackle a meeting or article? Are those ways of being or states of being "me"?
    6. Who am I if I legally or informally changed my name? Am I my name?

    "for now, you're you" is a construct of language that creates a reification of all the ways to frame sets of phenomena that is interpreted socially, culturally, digitally, biologically, etc. as an entity or being. How is the term "you", when applied to that which is framed as "Uneducated Pleb", different than the term "you" applied to the framing of properties that is "Michael"? Same word used for the description of measurably different bundles of properties, however the use of the same word can cognitively create something which is not "true" in the sense of empirical reality.

    Example - How can your name also be "Michael" when there was someone who has already lived and died in the 1700's and their name was "Michael"? You are not the other Michael, but you share the same particular framing as it comes to the term/name of "Michael" - but that is as far as that contingent framing goes. The name is part of a singular concept of identity (social framing of a property) above and beyond the properties each contained within multiple individual "Michael's" throughout spacetime. So are you an "archetypal" Michael? Or are you Michael Ossipoff? Are you the only Michael Ossipoff now, or in the past, or forever into the future? If not, then is your identity contiguous with theirs? Yes, if we consider the name only as a reified concept, but for the entity which is addressing this page the answer would be no, you have different properties than others also termed/named Michael.

    Language games - You are Michael, but is Michael...you?
  • Uneducated Pleb
    38
    the argument seems to rely on a specific interpretation of the solution to the Sorites paradox.BlueBanana

    Interesting point, I can see how that is perceived, however I think the application of the other versions (as well as the vagueness approach) still holds up for the argument against Descartes as well as for the Buddhist concept of emptiness.

    For example - if one thought occurs, then add another, then another, how many thoughts are required in order to identify "I"?
    or
    Are three thoughts the same condition (called "I") as 3,000,000 thoughts?
    or
    Only thoughts that have occurred within X boundary can be an "I", but who or what defines the boundary to only include thought?

    Would you point out for me where it would, or could, fail in the application of the other interpretations? I am probably off base, but it seems accurate to me.
  • BlueBanana
    873
    Thoughts aren't "I" - "I" is what's conscious of those thoughts. How many drops of paint are needed for a picture to exist? None, only the canvas is enough. Similarly only one thought is needed (actually not even that, it can be a perception as well) for "I" to be established.
  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    That is my (current) understanding. Would you agree with that way of thinking?Uneducated Pleb

    Yes, I think that's pretty right.

    There is a list of hidden premises in the way that Descartes chose the words "think" in relation to "am", which led to its eventual downfall.Uneducated Pleb

    I basically agree - I often used to muse on the idea that Descartes really might better have said, 'thinking therefore being', but Latin, and English, for that matter, are - what's the word - conjugated languages, so require subjects and objects - someone has to be thinking or doing something.

    Another point to bear in mind is the cultural context of Descartes and what that means for the interpretation of his works. It's true that Buddhism dissolves many of the apparent problems and paradoxes inherent in Western thought, but the West is not generally Buddhist. The sutta you quoted, for instance, is directed at renunciate monks, who have abandoned home and family. Bringing that perspective to bear on Western philosophical problems amounts to re-framing them in a completely different, even a novel, context, and one which may not be so readily available from inside the Western perspective.

    But all that said, still mostly in agreement.

    (You might find this essay of interest - What Is and Isn't Yogācāra, Dan Lusthaus. It contains an analysis of the relationship of Yogācāra ('mind-only') Buddhism with Western idealist philosophy.)
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k


    I’m going to send this reply in two parts, in order that I can reply now instead of tomorrow. Part 2 will be along tomorrow.
    .
    I do not believe in the reincarnation of a soul or essence, etc.

    I don’t believe in a Soul, Mind, or Consciousness separate from the body.
    I don’t suppose that reincarnation is provable, but it’s implied by my metaphysics

    .I would hesitate to call myself a materialist but on many positions I do side with them and so have been accused of being one.
    .
    Well, it’s understandable to agree with the Materialists on some things without being one. I think the Eliminative Physicalists come close to having it right, in philosophy-of-mind, until they take their position way too far.
    .
    What is your metaphysical position? I ask that because, of course, metaphysics is at the basis of these matters.
    .
    \Certainly what we’ve done, and what effect we’ve had on other living beings in this world after our demise, matters, but that isn’t reincarnation. …though it’s (reasonably) said to influence reincarnation. Near death experience (NDE) reports usually describe a “life-review”, in which the person is shown something resembling a movie of everything they’ve done that has affected others, and feels those effects, from the others’ points of view.
    .
    Quick word about "my conditioning" as well - conditioning is that way or the aggregate states of being that is expressed currently through the results of past experiences, training, genetics, status, parental guidance, friendships, education (or lack thereof), environment, etc. Am I my conditioning?
    .
    That’s a definitional issue, making it a flexibly-answered question. I say that each of us is the body, plain and simple. That disagrees with both Buddhism and Vedanta, though I call myself a Vedantist. That’s a matter on which I, too, agree with Materialists.
    .
    (Though I call myself a Vedantist, my metaphysics differs from that of the 3 usual versions of Vedanta--but they differ greatly from eachother too. All three and mine agree on the basic conclusions and consequences.)
    .
    I would also like to invite you to doubt your assertion that "for now, you’re you, just like you were yesterday.". I would like to list a few reasons why we can doubt that at certain levels -
    .
    1. My cells are not all the same as they were yesterday at this time. Ones still operating are now older and riddled with the effects of getting older, others have died, others are brand new today but with some potential genetic difference due to errors or the environment.

    The body is a system, not an object consisting of always the same component molecules and cells.
    .
    2. I have since had more and different experiences from this time yesterday which, at the very least subconsciously, have changed the aggregate of how I think and act. Maybe it is subtle, but every experience changes us as there is information that has been added about, for, and to my existence.
    .
    Of course. The purposefully responsive device that you are, like any purposefully-responsive device, is in different states, when different things have happened. That’s the nature of response. That’s what enables such a device to respond purposefully.
    .
    But that doesn’t make you a different device. The operating-system of the computer you’re writing with is still the same operating system, even though some of its memory-variable values change during operation.
    .
    You make a different decision, because things happened differently. That’s still the same you, responding to a different environment.
    .
    3. If I burned all the tips of my fingers off - I would no longer have the same fingerprints, so am I still "me"?
    .
    Yes. It would be you, with sore fingers, and no fingerprints. There’s be a clear continuity of experience from the time before you burned your fingertip-surfaces.
    .
    Are my fingerprints me? My hair color? My biological age?
    .
    Are they you? No. They’re attributes of you. You’ve changed your fingerprints attribute. Your biological age, and, with it, your hair color, change, but you’re still you, with continuity of experience from before.
    .
    But of course it’s also true that, though there’s been continuity of experience, and it’s the same body, I must admit that I don’t know the person that I was when I was very young, or even in highschool…or why I let myself be so easily cowed from life in those days.
    .
    So, it’s also true that there are some aspects in which there are different but equally valid meanings for what it means to be the same person or a different person. I use different meanings of it when talking about different aspects.
    .
    4. What constitutes the "now" in the "for now, you're you"? Was it then? Is it now when I am writing this or then - when I wrote the first post?
    .
    The “Now” that I was referring to is the Now when you receive the reply.
    .
    5. If I was in an accident and suffered damage to my frontal cortex, or damage to my amygdala, or my hippocampus so that my behaviour was no longer typical of my previous days - am I no longer "me"?
    .
    You aren’t your behavior as observed by friends, family, or a scientist with a clipboard. If there’s continuity of experience, from before the accident to after the accident then yes, it’s still the same you. A friend might say, “You aren’t yourself”, but it’s not up to him.
    .
    Sure, there maybe could be an accident or condition that could make you completely forget all about who you were, without even any subconscious attributes or memories remaining. You have no idea who you are, or how you got where you are, and remember nothing from before. No continuity of experience. Then I wouldn’t say you’re the same you.
    .
    And, in the passage that you quoted at the beginning of your post, I mentioned that, at the end of lives, there likely comes a time, before complete shutdown of perception and experience, when there’s no more identity, and no knowledge that there ever was or could be such a thing. Obviously, to the extent that that change has taken place, then you aren’t the “you” that you were. Because identity is no more, you aren’t any particular “you” at all.
    .
    I would no longer be able to control behaviour, or regulate emotion to the same degree, or perhaps not even remember that there was a "yesterday". Are my memories "me"? My emotions? My plans to tackle a meeting or article? Are those ways of being or states of being "me"?
    .
    I wouldn’t say that those things are you. You’re the body, and you’re the same person as long as there’s continuity of experience. After an accident that completely eliminates continuity of experience, you’re still the body, but not the same person.
    .
    6. Who am I if I legally or informally changed my name? Am I my name?
    .
    No. Your name is only a social label.
    .
    "for now, you're you" is a construct of language that creates a reification of all the ways to frame sets of phenomena that is interpreted socially, culturally, digitally, biologically, etc. as an entity or being.
    .
    It’s more than that. It’s a fact of continuity of experience.
    .
    This concludes part 1 of this reply. Part 2, replying to the last 2 or 3 remaining paragraphs in your post, will be along tomorrow.
    .
    Michael Ossipoff
  • 0rff
    31
    How do you know what you claim to know? How do you know you are not being deceived? Descartes threw away all of his beliefs in order to peel away the deceptions and arrived at the very bedrock of his web of beliefs. The basic belief that he exists as a thinking being which cannot be doubted, for in order to doubt it there must be a thinking being that exists in order to doubt.Uneducated Pleb

    What's fascinating here is D's motive. In his quest for certainty, he interpreted his being as thinking. But what then of the motive itself? He felt the need for certainty. He wanted certainty. Note that he also liberated/created a radically free ego-thing, and that's another emotional charge. His thinking more or less casts off all authority.
    If we rest assured that "I think, therefore I am" then our base is once again knocked out from underneath us as we have uncovered, thanks to the Buddha and Eubulides, that within that statement lies a hidden premise which appears to be false - that there is in fact an "I" that thinks. "I" is a shortened description of the collection of elements (whose relations constantly shift and change and come into and go out of existence as time passes) which is then represented with "I". Thinking is only one element of what is considered "I". Can my thinking happen without my form? Can my thinking happen without a perception or sensation or referent to start the thought?Uneducated Pleb

    These are great points, but I amplify the dependence of the philosophical 'I' on a more ordinary understanding of the use of 'I.' Descartes was a toddler once, learning to speak by interacting with humans and objects. 'I' am something I learnt to take responsibility for. 'I' am something that who experiences pride and shame. Descartes could only unveil the radically alone doubting thing after having learned a language. Of course I agree that thinking depends also on perception and sensation. To be sure, I'd also stress that we know objects first. Only much later can we theorize our own thinking as an organization of pure sensation by concepts. What's fascinating in this general theoretical trend is the tendency to deny/transcend the past. There seems to be an urge to get behind our inheritance, and yet (fascinatingly) we have to use this same inheritance against itself. In a move toward an ideal future we use the past against the past. Or, put another way, we are the past trying to leap beyond itself, sometimes by leaping further backward to an older, better past. This makes sense. What materials are on hand to build that ideal future with? This is not to deny the possibility of novelty, but to suggest that we are largely inspired by what has come before.

    Second, if one is asking the question to someone else outright, one has not realized the first part, and one is clinging to the idea of "self" as a single reified construct or inherent essence. The nuance of how "self" is seen to exist is not yet realized or otherwise beyond the set of the practitioners current capability. To answer outright for that type of questioner would be to hinder their (in this case Vacchagotta's) eventual release from the clinging to the reified-construct-as-self. From the point of view of the one who realizes "no self", the questioner is asking from a place where the self is a concrete thing, which either exists or it doesn't.Uneducated Pleb

    I relate to this quite a bit. Our questions tend to be blindly front-loaded. We don't see how we are already constraining the field of meaning in the very 'shape' of our question. On the other hand, this front-loaded 'framework' is what makes the question possible in the first place. We must ask from the 'field of meaning' that we already have or even are. In my view we can extend this 'reified construct' thinking even further, as something that haunts the ordinary understanding of language. I might frame this in terms of meaning atomism versus meaning holism. The 'atomist' thinks he is employing rigid 'plates' of meaning. We arrange these stable concepts in patterns and, thanks to their stability, get an equally stable compound meaning.

    But is this how we really operate? Or is it just as theoretically/artificial as the doubting object? In my view, we need only really look with fresh eyes at the way we experience meaning. Can we say exactly what it means to mean? What is like to move in the field of meaning? How does meaning flow? How does meaning leap ahead and look behind as we read a sentence or listen to a poem? How do the words 'melt' together? Do we cling to atomistic sense of language as something that offers a certain safety from ambiguity? Are we disgusted by its excess? by its tendency to say more than we intended? By its 'corporality' and only partial translatability? Does holistic meaning threaten our hope to gather ourselves up into a atom, a delineated thing?How can I partake in God if God is eternal and fixed and I can only name myself with unstable fields of meaning? (One answer might be to 'unfix' God so that s/he 'is' an emotionally ideal field of meaning --and this finally stresses what I should have stressed earlier, that meaning is passionate.)
  • 0rff
    31
    "for now, you're you" is a construct of language that creates a reification of all the ways to frame sets of phenomena that is interpreted socially, culturally, digitally, biologically, etc. as an entity or being.Uneducated Pleb

    May I jump in here? It does seem that language reveals or shapes entities. On the other hand, the very notion of language apart from the language user is already itself a 'construct of language.' But then that language user too is yanked out from the world entire by language, one might say. I think you'd agree, too, that 'construct of language' itself a reification, a construct of language.

    What's interesting for me about the words 'being' and 'entity' is that they suggest indeterminate unities, or the 'atom' as such. It's as if we have 'digital' tendencies when it comes to interpreting It (the world, experience, being there, time, consciousness,phenomena, etc.) while also wanting to speak of continuous flow and the vagueness of mood. (I really like that you used the word 'digitally.' ) Of course we also try to name the thing itself 'before' it is 'distorted' by framework-laden language. It's like hunting for snow that has never been stepped on. But we step on this snow by talking about it. We can only be understood in a language that is already there in its 'guilt' and 'impurity.'
  • Michael Ossipoff
    1.7k
    Part 2 (of 2) of this reply:
    .
    Alright, I must admit that I’m not the same person that I was in elementary school, junior high school (pre-secondary school) or highschool (secondary school).
    .
    …even though I’m the same body.
    .
    I’d say that the Ship of Theseus is the same ship, even when many or all of its planks have been replaced, with continuity of being only a little different from immediately before. …even if it’s bigger than it initially was.
    .
    I know pretty much what I was feeling at some times in those days, and what I thought should motivate me, but I don’t know why I couldn’t have, at some point, sat down and said, “Alright, what’s going on here? Whom am I living for anyway? What, whose wishes, should be my purpose and priority? How do I want to use this temporary life?”
    .
    Of course that would have been quite impossible for me, for reasons beyond my control, that were either due to my age then, or cultural, familial, & school bullying, or maybe even my own intrinsic attributes for reasons other than just my age (After all, the same thing didn’t happen to everyone). …or some combination of those.
    .
    I’d say that over the timescale of a lifetime, we aren’t necessarily the same person that we were.
    .
    But you know that you’re the same person you were yesterday or last week.
    .
    How is the term "you", when applied to that which is framed as "Uneducated Pleb", different than the term "you" applied to the framing of properties that is "Michael"?
    .
    I just take “You” to have its usual grammatical meaning: The person to whom one is speaking. I prefer the better expressivity of “Thou”, “Thee”, “Ye” and “You”. But oh well.
    .
    Example - How can your name also be "Michael" when there was someone who has already lived and died in the 1700's and their name was "Michael"?
    .
    “Michael” is only part of the label. The “Ossipoff “ distinguishes me from most of the other Michaels.
    .
    You are not the other Michael, but you share the same particular framing as it comes to the term/name of "Michael" - but that is as far as that contingent framing goes. The name is part of a singular concept of identity (social framing of a property) above and beyond the properties each contained within multiple individual "Michael's" throughout spacetime. So are you an "archetypal" Michael?
    .
    No, Michaels need have nothing in common other than their first name.
    .
    Or are you Michael Ossipoff? Are you the only Michael Ossipoff now, or in the past, or forever into the future?
    .
    No, not even now. Not even now in the U.S.
    .
    If not, then is your identity contiguous with theirs?
    .
    Of course not.
    .
    Yes, if we consider the name only as a reified concept, but for the entity which is addressing this page the answer would be no, you have different properties than others also termed/named Michael.
    .
    Quite so.

    .
    Language games - You are Michael, but is Michael...you?
    .
    Not usually.
    .
    Michael Ossipoff
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.