Birds prefer--choose--beauty in their mates, he thought. A male cardinal does not need to know that he is beautiful, but his selective mate does. — Bitter Crank
But to assess one's appearance as "handsome", or "beautiful" and identify the degree of loveliness requires an accurate assessment of one's appearance from the POV of others. — Bitter Crank
There is a New England shape note song--or maybe the Southern Harmony tradition which speaks of the longing to see God — Bitter Crank
Is there a macrocosmic hierarchy in which beings "look down on" beings lower on the hierarchical scale and observe qualities of those beings which are invisible to those lower beings themselves?
"Does a human person know that it's beautiful?"
And secondly, could there be a higher form of being that observes and apprehends a beautiful quality in us which we are incapable of seeing?
That's my entire argument; we see an aspect of the bird which the bird is not capable of seeing.
Do you mean a hierarchy in which certain animals that have evolved particular capacities to evaluate qualities (like beauty) in other animals that have not evolved such capacities? — numberjohnny5
Apart from humans, I do think that some animals can evaluate such qualities in other animals insofar as what is "beautiful" to them might serve different evolutionary functions (e.g. avoiding or falling prey to predation). — numberjohnny5
I don't think that hierarchies are objective things, btw. They are just ways that minds organise things. So there is no intrinsic "superior/inferior" "valuable" differences in things apart from minds thinking about things in that way. — numberjohnny5
It depends on the person, since beauty is subjective. — numberjohnny5
Again, beauty is subjective. There is no objectively "beautiful quality" that exists in things apart from some mind judging qualities to be beautiful. — numberjohnny5
It could be true that someone/thing observes a quality in us that we aren't aware of and judges it as beautiful. But that judgement belongs to the mind of the observer judging that quality. — numberjohnny5
I'm not sure what a "higher form of being" means. — numberjohnny5
I'd put it like this: we are capable of perceiving and appraising aspects of non-human animals that other non-human animals cannot perceive and appraise (based on our biological apparatus). But it's probably also true that some non-human animals are able to perceive and appraise aspects of humans that humans cannot perceive and appraise (e.g. infra-red perception, sonic detection, etc.). — numberjohnny5
But I can’t quite make the leap from there to the second paragraph. — Wayfarer
I suppose one answer might be, that the sense of being loved is in some way to ‘feel beautiful’. At a very basic level, your mother’s love for you as an infant instils a sense of self-worth in you which might, at a stretch, be a kind of beauty. (The sad testimony to this is the pathologies of infants who are raised with an absence of all maternal love.) — Wayfarer
So I suppose, within the Christian framework, the sense of the Lord as a ‘loving father’ and indeed the sense in which the sacrament of marriage recapitulates that love, is also a source of something very life beauty. — Wayfarer
The problem is, I can’t see how it constitutes any kind of proof. — Wayfarer
I agree, but I'm not talking about evolutionary functions.
Plus the only minds thinking are human minds; no other minds are thinking, presumably.
If you re-read that section of the OP, you'll see that beauty there is metaphorical and not literal in a physical sense.
But it sounds like you're just talking about people observing people. Again, if you re-read the OP, I'm using the bird as a metaphor for imaging if a similar scenario of us observing the bird applies to some higher form of being observing us.
A form of being higher than humans.
I agree, but it looks like you're thinking within a physicalist/materialist framework; I'm not. I agree that what you say here is true, but it's not an argument against the possibility of a higher form of being existing above the being of humanity; a form of being that apprehends a different view of humanity in the same way that we observe a different view of the bird.
In that case, I don't think that animals that are relatively dissimilar to us perceive qualities as "beautiful" apart from them being able to do so for evolutionary purposes. — numberjohnny5
What is "beauty" in the sense that you're using it? And would you also have a view per what beauty is ontologically? — numberjohnny5
I'm confused. Let me try to clarify something of my position in case it helps further the discussion.
Any perception/appraisal is going to involve some mind (human or non-human (including something like a god)) observing some other (or some mind perceiving/appraising aspects of itself). That's necessarily the case. — numberjohnny5
In what sense "higher"? — numberjohnny5
Well, I am a physicalist. ;) — numberjohnny5
I don't view things as intrinsically "superior/inferior/valuable, etc.". That's all I'm saying; and it seems that you do. — numberjohnny5
Would there be a higher being higher than the higher being, btw? — numberjohnny5
Quick tip, highlight the text you want to quote, then click "quote". — Noble Dust
But how does "beauty", aesthetically speaking, obtain evolutionarily? How would Adorno respond to you, for instance? — Noble Dust
In this particular case in this thread, beauty first refers to our perception of the bird (view the attached photo for context), and then secondarily refers to an abstract concept in which the first concept of beauty is creatively applied to a possible form of being which is higher than humanity. — Noble Dust
As to an ontological view of beauty, I love that stuff, but at this point...it's tough ground, and a lot of the ground feels tough because of language.
I would say Divine Being is primary, and Beauty might possibly be secondary. Beauty might be the generative outgrowth of divinity. That's not very good, though. Go easy on me. Or not. — Noble Dust
Higher in the sense that we are higher than the birds. Who's higher than us? No one/thing? — Noble Dust
But I don't know what you mean by "superior/inferior/valuable". I get "superior/inferior" from my suggestion that we see something the bird does not, and maybe something/someone else sees something in us that we do not (superior/inferior here, for clarity, has no moral connotation). But I'm not sure how "valuable" plays into that.
So, I'm entertaining the possibility of a macrocosmic hierarchy in which various beings grade along the scale (slugs, birds, humans, angels??? God???), but any sense of inferior/superior is just a sense of ontological scale. If that make sense. — Noble Dust
Would there be a sweeter ice cream sweeter than the sweeter ice cream, btw? — Noble Dust
The bird is as tightly caught in the spell of its own being as we are tightly caught in the spell of our own being. A bird can't sense the beauty we see it in any more than we can sense the beauty a higher being (might) see in us. — Cavacava
You mean that any being cannot escape its own subjectivity?
Yes, but the word 'subjectivity' does not (in my opinion) encompass the totality that word 'being' is capable of expressing. — Cavacava
We are a unique 'mix' of form & matter — Cavacava
The bird's connection to what it is (its being) — Cavacava
Does a bird know that it's beautiful? A Weird Argument For Theism
This is a poetic question more than a philosophical one, but it brings up a valid philosophical line of enquiry: Is there a macrocosmic hierarchy in which beings "look down on" beings lower on the hierarchical scale and observe qualities of those beings which are invisible to those lower beings themselves?
And secondly, could there be a higher form of being that observes and apprehends a beautiful quality in us which we are incapable of seeing? — Noble Dust
But either way, ontologically, form and matter are not different things.
They sound like two distinct things in the way you're claiming.
Form and matter are bound together, their mix is inexorable in the same way each separate being is inexorable bound to Being, to existence. — Cavacava
That doesn't really clear things up for me. What is the difference between "form" and "matter" ontologically?
Aristotle famously contends that every physical object is a compound of matter and form. This doctrine has been dubbed “hylomorphism”...While the basic idea of hylomorphism is easy to grasp, much remains unclear beneath the surface. Aristotle introduces matter and form, in the Physics, to account for changes in the natural world, where he is particularly interested in explaining how substances come into existence even though, as he maintains, there is no generation ex nihilo, that is that nothing comes from nothing. In this connection, he develops a general hylomorphic framework, which he then extends by putting it to work in a variety of contexts. For example, he deploys it in his Metaphysics, where he argues that form is what unifies some matter into a single object, the compound of the two; he appeals to it in his De Anima, by treating soul and body as a special case of form and matter and by analyzing perception as the reception of form without matter; and he suggests in the Politics that a constitution is the form of a polis and the citizens its matter, partly on the grounds that the constitution serves to unify the body politic.
The following from SEP:
Aristotle famously contends that every physical object is a compound of matter and form.
So "beauty" in the sense you're using it in this thread entails some entity/process/X/?? which involves
(a) perception of the bird (first concept of beauty?);
(b) a second (abstract) concept of beauty that refers to the first concept (perception), and that which then is possibly creatively applied to "a form of being which is higher than humanity".
Have I got that right? — numberjohnny5
My response is that I would have to understand what "Divine Being" actually is? I take it it's not material and therefore immaterial? — numberjohnny5
"Higher" is a quantitative term (conventionally speaking). So I'm asking in what sense "higher" are we than birds per that definition. You might be using an unconventional definition of "higher" though, so you'd need to share that with me in order for me to grasp what you're getting at. — numberjohnny5
Ok, but I see the "scale" as subjective, fyi. We could use scales for many purposes; in other words, there is not one "true" or "correct" purpose for using/applying scales to things. — numberjohnny5
It depends on the individual tasting the ice cream and the amount of properties that produce sensations/perceptions of "sweetness" for that individual. There might be a limit as to an individual's taste budes being able to make distinctions of sweetness once they taste things that are intensely sweet. One could still compose some product with whatever properties makes something sweet to an individual with an excessively large amount of those sweet properties to ensure that it's relatively one of the sweetest products to taste. — numberjohnny5
Our identification of beauty in birds doesn't inform them of their beauty. It's a bridge too far. So, perhaps "we are to birds as God is to us" still holds, but oppositely since
God may be as distant from us as we are to birds
So, God's vision of us may do for us what we do for birds, which may be something, or nothing. — Bitter Crank
Higher in the sense of hierarchy, not in the sense of higher number. — Noble Dust
I don't know what birds see in each other. It could be that what the bird sees is the same thing that we see--that is, the female cardinal clearly sees a red male cardinal. Some birds do, anyway. — Bitter Crank
Again, beauty is subjective. — numberjohnny5
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