For a better forum culture

Buxtebuddha

Issues that I think need to be addressed are as follows:

1) Insulting, demeaning, and/or belittling behavior ought not be allowed from anyone on this forum.
2) Moderators must be moderated like the rest of the forum population.
3) Moderators ought not be exclusively moderated by his or her fellow moderators.
4) Flagging posts or sending private messages to those who should to change their behavior is a flawed and unreliable system in ensuring proper behavior.

I've tested the waters here and have found inconsistencies that aren't congruent with a healthy forum culture. Some of those in leadership positions, the moderators, are not taking their positions as seriously as they ought to and so are not being held accountable. At present, being a moderator entails being able to say what you want without obvious reprimand. Non-moderators, like me, cannot, and rightly, insult other posters. However, some here who are moderators can insult, demean, and belittle other posters. Why? And if they, in fact, are not able to, what is being done to keep them from being insulting, demeaning, and belittling? Slaps on the wrists? What?

For quick access, below is a part of this site's guidelines:

Reveal

Moderator conduct:

In discussions, a moderator is subject to the same guidelines as everyone else, and shouldn't, under normal circumstances*, moderate their interlocutors. You can report a moderator or ask that a moderator be moderated in the same way as you would any other poster: by flagging their posts or by sending a private message to another moderator. In other words, moderators, as posters, don't have a special set of guidelines to operate under. So, in this capacity, they should be treated like other posters. When it comes to moderating decisions, however, they are not like other posters, because they have powers other posters don't. In these cases, the Feedback category, or, again, a private message, can be used to complain about moderators' actions in their capacity as moderators. Do not use other discussions to do this or your comments will be deemed off-topic and will be subject to deletion. Feedback discussions should also be kept on-topic with regard to the specific complaint being made.

~

With this tenant in mind, here are just a few remarks that have remained in text and have not been edited, deleted, or otherwise censored by anyone.

Reveal

- I am not a distasteful little wretch like you
- run along and go fornicate with yourself.
- only problem is trying to do this with morons.
- The rest of your post aside from the following is not even worth responding to
- you make a fool of yourself
- Are you speaking English or some other language? I'm speaking English.
- you are wrong, as usual
- You're a weak opponent for me
- Contradictory nonsense.
- Oh my god. That is daft.
- sometimes I get bored of the conversation, so I make stuff up to keep myself entertained (my favorite, explains so, so much)
- This is almost too silly to engage
- What the heck are you talking about? Your thinking is muddled, as usual.
- I have no qualms about demeaning his beliefs, or the beliefs of anyone else here.
- I have no reason to take you seriously
- The only illusion that you'd be shattering is the illusion that you would see sense, but I was never under that illusion to begin with.

~

Perhaps I'm wrong, but this is supposed to be a philosophy forum, not a bullshitting, verbal sparring ground for trolls and assholes or some sort of comedy club. I could add in my own crap to the above, very brief list, but my point is that this behavior remains on the forum and nothing is being done to combat it. How can anyone expect to carry on respectful discussion when the above list of things goes on all the time? I'd like not to feel the urge to be mean when I'm being demeaned, insulted, or belittled myself. Flagging posts, especially of moderators, seems a fruitless enterprise that goes nowhere. I don't think anyone here wants to go on mass editing sprees, removing everything useless in posts. What I do think we can do is foster a better culture here by making sure people are held accountable for their actions.

I'm not particularly hopeful, though. When a moderator himself says, "I have no qualms about demeaning anyone here," then I dunno what can be done. People have to desire change in themselves and to realize that their own behavior isn't appropriate, or at least, ought not be allowed. I'm more than willing to be respectful to everyone so long as they're respectful to me. This seems to be the goal around here, but the mods have forgotten and don't always follow it themselves.

Bottom line, if a post is to be deleted or edited, and a member warned or banned, then that which often leads to such moderated behavior also needs to be censored, otherwise people are shooting in the dark for what is and is not allowed. And that isn't fair.

Hanover

People have the right, of course, to be passionate and from time to time to be intemperate within certain bounds, and we don't wish to over-moderate to the point of censuring legitimate points. Many of the instances cited above do not strike me as particularly concerning and some I know to have been taken out of context. Sometimes jabs are meant in humor between people who know one another and we need to determine which are which.

I do agree with the basic sentiment that everyone should try to be civil and that insulting behavior should be minimized. An example of one such offending comment that I deleted just moments ago came from you, and I think it might serve as a good example of the sort of post to avoid:

"Am I a fool for not sucking your dick and agreeing with every thought that emanates from your little walnut? I know the Marxist in you wants to manipulate your way to having everyone think the same as you do and for everyone to be snooty pricks, but unfortunately, I shall remain in your way until someone breaks and bans me for no good reason.

I also don't agree with much of what MU is saying here, I just feel for him as it would seem that he is this week's prey for some of you here to extend your egos over the internet and its denizens. " Buxtebuddha

A more effective strategy for moderating the comments on this board than appealing to the moderators for relief is to moderate your own behavior and simply not post comments like the one above.

Shawn

My only concern is with sexual jokes and innuendo's given that the audience can be composed of teenagers, kids, and adolescents. I mean, what kind of impression are we trying to give? None?

Hanover

↪Posty McPostface

You have expressed your concern over sexual jokes before, and it's not that you've been ignored. My view is that this board is an adult oriented board and that the discussions contained on this board are not intended for children. The mission of this board is not to create any particular sort of impression when it comes to sexual jokes and whatnot. If there are children wandering about the internet unsupervised there are far less safe places they could come across than this philosophy forum.

T Clark

Bottom line, if a post is to be deleted or edited, and a member warned or banned, then that which often leads to such moderated behavior also needs to be censored, otherwise people are shooting in the dark for what is and is not allowed. And that isn't fair. — Buxtebuddha

I look at the list of comments you provide. They are inconsiderate, arrogant, snotty and smug. They are also bad philosophy. On the other hand, I don't see any of them that should be deleted. Be that as it may, I have made the case before that moderators should be held to a higher standard than regular posters. Otherwise, the credibility of the forum is undermined.

BC

↪Buxtebuddha

Perhaps my standards are too low, but I find the forum culture to be perfectly adequate for practical purposes. Were this forum a program of a university philosophy department and was moderated by paid staff, one could reasonably expect tighter moderation and (almost certainly) a less interesting experience.

Forums such as this really should have the mostly reasonable, loose level of decorum it has--something quite a ways short of perfection. With perfection comes tight control--from who is allowed to even see the forum, join the forum, post, moderate, onward to getting away with dubious posts, and to occasionally impolite interactions, and impolitic comments. Sometimes getting away with just plain bad behavior.

Be careful what you pray for, as the saying goes -- you might get it.

Shawn

You have expressed your concern over sexual jokes before, and it's not that you've been ignored. My view is that this board is an adult oriented board and that the discussions contained on this board are not intended for children. The mission of this board is not to create any particular sort of impression when it comes to sexual jokes and whatnot. If there are children wandering about the internet unsupervised there are far less safe places they could come across than this philosophy forum. — Hanover

I'm not concerned deeply with it, due to most of the pee-pee and poopy jokes happening in the shoutbox as a moderator mentioned already. I guess I'm very puritan about sex and talk about it.

BC

They are inconsiderate, arrogant, snotty and smug. — T Clark

And inconsiderate, arrogant, snotty and smug comments are posted because some of the forum members are inconsiderate, arrogant, snotty and smug, and some of them go downhill from there. But that's just life. The range of behavior is always pretty wide, and getting people to change their behavior is always pretty difficult.

Sometimes I think that society would be better off tolerating the flaws which all of us incarnate at one time or another, rather than spending a lot of time policing this behavior.

T Clark

A more effective strategy for moderating the comments on this board than appealing to the moderators for relief is to moderate your own behavior and simply not post comments like the one above. — Hanover

Cheap shot. Bad philosophy. Bad moderating. You should be ashamed. Answer his damn comment. Buxtebuddha is not without sin, but that's not what's on the table right now. You should be figuring out a way to make the forum better, not backing up your fellow moderators inappropriate behavior.

On another thread there is a discussion about the abuse of power. That's exactly what's going on here, admittedly on a small scale. You and Sapientia can do what you want to insult and shame people you disagree with without censure from the other moderators. It's infuriating.

BC

My only concern is with sexual jokes and innuendo's given that the audience can be composed of teenagers, kids, and adolescents. I mean, what kind of impression are we trying to give? — Posty McPostface

Hopefully that sexual jokes and innuendo is a normal part of life, and that one won't shrivel up and die if one hears a sexual joke, or offends someone for telling a sexual joke. Personally, I enjoy sexual jokes, double entendres, snide puns, innuendo, and all that stuff.

Buxtebuddha

A more effective strategy for moderating the comments on this board than appealing to the moderators for relief is to moderate your own behavior and simply not post comments like the one above. — Hanover

Moderating one's own comments is precisely what moderators here have not been doing. I can moderate my own if I do not receive shit from moderators who seem to have an untouchable position.

My only concern is with sexual jokes and innuendo's given that the audience can be composed of teenagers, kids, and adolescents. I mean, what kind of impression are we trying to give? None? — Posty McPostface

Agreed.

I look at the list of comments you provide. They are inconsiderate, arrogant, snotty and smug. They are also bad philosophy. On the other hand, I don't see any of them that should be deleted. Be that as it may, I have made the case before that moderators should be held to a higher standard than regular posters. Otherwise, the credibility of the forum is undermined. — T Clark

I agree. I don't think they should be deleted, but the issue remains that the deletion of posts isn't consistent, and has been such that moderators who insult others can do so, while others like me for instance, cannot without being reprimanded. Either we all get to jab at each other or not at all. There shouldn't be some vague, subjective criteria, or lack thereof, which mods can appeal to that lets them get away with what the rest of us can't.

Be careful what you pray for, as the saying goes -- you might get it. — Bitter Crank

I do pray that we either get to be insulting here, or we don't get to be. That's it. None of this, "I have a special ding dong next to my name, so I can do whatever I want! You, pleb, cannot be demeaning, but I can!" It's mildly infuriating when I get smacked for reaching for a cookie by an older brother who takes the whole fuckin jar of baked goods. That ain't fair, sorry!

Shawn

Hopefully that sexual jokes and innuendo is a normal part of life, and that one won't shrivel up and die if one hears a sexual joke, or offends someone for telling a sexual joke. Personally, I enjoy sexual jokes, double entendres, snide puns, innuendo, and all that stuff. — Bitter Crank

Matter of taste, I guess.

I agree with Hanover, and particularly with the following:

Many of the instances cited above do not strike me as particularly concerning and some I know to have been taken out of context. — Hanover

T Clark

Forums such as this really should have the mostly reasonable, loose level of decorum it has--something quite a ways short of perfection. With perfection comes tight control--from who is allowed to even see the forum, join the forum, post, moderate, onward to getting away with dubious posts, and to occasionally impolite interactions, and impolitic comments. Sometimes getting away with just plain bad behavior. — Bitter Crank

I don't disagree with you. I'm not proposing any specific changes. Since I don't have the power to ban or delete, I'm using the power I do have - to call out chronically inconsiderate, snotty, smug, and arrogant behavior when I see it. The worst part is it's cheap shot, crappy, cowardly philosophizing.

BC

↪T Clark

I don't think the moderator-apparatchiks can effectively moderate each other. We would have to have a higher layer of moderation devoted to pruning the excesses of the lower moderators.

I am not sure whether the social affect of Sapientia and Hanover have changed recently; it seems to me that they might be a bit more rough and sarcastic than usual. Since there does not appear to be a line at the Moderator Application Window, we probably are stuck with what we've got. And that is not the worst thing that can happen.

T Clark

Sometimes I think that society would be better off tolerating the flaws which all of us incarnate at one time or another, rather than spending a lot of time policing this behavior. — Bitter Crank

I'm all for official toleration. That's why there is informal social control, which is what I'm trying to do with the tools I have. On the other hand, there are moderators who shouldn't be. They don't have the temperament and respect for the people they moderate.

BC

↪Buxtebuddha

There is no end to the problems caused by people obfuscating. You are calling a spade what you see as a spade, which is what honest people ought to do.

unenlightened

I'm using the power I do have - to call out chronically inconsiderate, snotty, smug, and arrogant behavior when I see it. The worst part is it's cheap shot, crappy, cowardly philosophizing. — T Clark

there are moderators who shouldn't be. They don't have the temperament and respect for the people they moderate. — T Clark

Me too.

T Clark

I am not sure whether the social affect of Sapientia and Hanover have changed recently; it seems to me that they might be a bit more rough and sarcastic than usual. Since there does not appear to be a line at the Moderator Application Window, we probably are stuck with what we've got. And that is not the worst thing that can happen. — Bitter Crank

Again, I don't disagree with you. As I say to my close, personal friend @Baden from time to time

My God, that's moose turd pie!! It's good though.

Buxtebuddha

I'm all for official toleration. That's why there is informal social control, which is what I'm trying to do with the tools I have. On the other hand, there are moderators who shouldn't be. They don't have the temperament and respect for the people they moderate. — T Clark

Hey, are you admitting that you're a moron like me? X-)

There is no end to the problems caused by people obfuscating. You are calling a spade what you see as a spade, which is what honest people ought to do. — Bitter Crank

Oh I know, I'm just shooting in the dark here, hoping that people check their privilege and their behavior.

As I say to my close, personal friend Baden from time to time — T Clark

If this is the case, please take him out to coffee, and if he blows you off, beat him over the head and steal his account.

BC

I'm all for official toleration. That's why there is informal social control, which is what I'm trying to do with the tools I have. On the other hand, there are moderators who shouldn't be. They don't have the temperament and respect for the people they moderate. — T Clark

OK, so why don't we take a vote? It might be (or, it most certainly would be) non-binding, but it might have a beneficial effect. Then again, it might not.

A new thread, and a poll listing the moderators. Click the button of those that you think should not be moderators.

↪T Clark

like "The food was terrible, and the portions were so small!"

Buxtebuddha

OK, so why don't we take a vote? It might be (or, it most certainly would be) non-binding, but it might have a beneficial effect. Then again, it might not.

A new thread, and a poll listing the moderators. Click the button of those that you think should not be moderators. — Bitter Crank

10 moderators all voting for each other sounds like a terrible idea. They're already "voting" for each other in this thread!

T Clark

like "The food was terrible, and the portions were so small!" — Bitter Crank

Of all the people I've interacted with on this forum, you're the one I can think of who might be familiar with U. Utah Phillips.

T Clark

OK, so why don't we take a vote? It might be (or, it most certainly would be) non-binding, but it might have a beneficial effect. Then again, it might not. — Bitter Crank

As I said, I'm all for calling out bad behavior, but I don't believe in holding people up to ridicule. It would be humiliating for me to be in a situation where people who don't like me vote about me. I'd rather not do it to anyone else.

Agustino

A new thread, and a poll listing the moderators. Click the button of those that you think should not be moderators. — Bitter Crank

Yeah, you reckon that poll is gonna stay OPEN? >:O Give me a break... >:O

We already had a poll to alter the guidelines once upon a time. It got closed in less than 12 hours after all the moderators rushed to vote >:)

praxis

Insulting, demeaning, and/or belittling behavior ought not be allowed from anyone on this forum. — Buxtebuddha

I would agree if this were a forum for children. Adults should have the capacity to deal with this sort of thing.

Buxtebuddha

↪praxis

In my experience some of the mods and others here aren't adults with such a capacity.

praxis

↪Buxtebuddha

Having read some of their posts on the matter, my understanding is that a few of them consciously choose to express themselves in ways that may be offensive in some situations. I suppose the difference may be that they're at least relatively self-aware and not merely reactionary. That's an important difference and it seems to hold true, in my experience (which may not be sufficient evidence).

Buxtebuddha

↪praxis

That they're aware of their bad behavior? Being moderators, I expect them to uphold the site guidelines better than anyone, and yet...

Baden

↪Buxtebuddha

This has been dealt with before and the guidelines should be clear. Besides, your own behavior and the type of comments you are prone to suggest you may not be sincere. Even if you are though sufficient discussion has occurred for the moderator group to understand and note your perspective. If you wish to raise issues that relate to this topic but which have not yet been raised in this thread, they may be communicated by PM to one of the moderators.

Baden

I've reopened this as after reading Buxtebuddha's PM I see I misunderstood something about the specific incident and that was part of the reason I closed the discussion.

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