How will it turn out - this double role intelligence is playing? Is intelligence a curse and will it destroy our Earth or is it a gift and preserve our Earth's environmental health for generations to come? — TheMadFool

In terms of our impact on the Earth, what humans have done is a pittance of a pittance to events that have happened in the past, the most obvious of which is the asteroid impact 65 million years ago.

That's not to say I don't care about climate change and the other environmental damage humans have caused. But the Earth doesn't care. Stewardship of the Earth is a human value. If we weren't here, it wouldn't matter. Mattering is something humans impose on the world. Fundamentally, it matters to us because it is hurting us.

It is our intelligence that's the engine of this destruction. — TheMadFool

No, our intelligence created the car, our stupidity drove it everywhere despite being fully aware of the consequences. Our intelligence devised weapons, our stupidity used them on each other just because our religion told us to.

It is not intelligent to destroy the environment or other communities you depend on for your survival.

We seem to have a great fondness for describing the 'intelligence' of the human species. It's made up of a very small number of intelligent people who actually do all the stuff we ascribe to human intelligence and a vast mass of idiots who do nothing but use the stuff the intelligent people have devised to fuck things up completely.

But now, humans can do something about an extinction causing asteroid. We have satellites scanning the skies, missiles and nuclear weapons. This wasn't possible before and so I think this goes in favor of having intelligent life. We can avoid the reset button on life and allow it to make progress if I may say so.

Interesting. I guess I ignored stupidity. Intelligence, then, is favorable to Earth's health in your opinion? Do you see a brighter future for coming generations in terms of a healthy ecosystem?

Intelligence, then, is favorable to Earth's health in your opinion? — TheMadFool

Yes, unless we no longer rely on ecosystems for our health and well being (which I admit might be a technical possibility, but a long way off) then the only intelligent course of action is to preserve them in a functioning state.

Do you see a brighter future for coming generations in terms of a healthy ecosystem? — TheMadFool

No, I don't. Intelligence is an inconvenience to the capitalist economy. It relies on selling people things they don't really need and intelligence just gets in the way so all the machinery of the economy is designed to make people stupid, and it's working.

.all of the above are human-centric in the sense they are ALL designed to help HUMANS survive and thrive. — TheMadFool

Eh. More darwinism.

Yes, unless we no longer rely on ecosystems for our health and well being (which I admit might be a technical possibility, but a long way off) then the only intelligent course of action is to preserve them in a functioning state. — Inter Alia

That's it. Intelligence is necessary to preserve the environment, even life itself. As I said things are in motion - technology is in transition from black smoke to green engines - and we can only guess on how the future will be. We may have the 20/20 vision of hindsight but the future is difficult to predict.

No, I don't. Intelligence is an inconvenience to the capitalist economy. It relies on selling people things they don't really need and intelligence just gets in the way so all the machinery of the economy is designed to make people stupid, and it's working. — Inter Alia

I do agree that our current economic system is too profit-oriented to care about our environment but I can see some small steps towards a green economy - recycling, energy saving machines, renewable energy, etc. I'm optimistic about the future.

Eh. More darwinism — Wayfarer

Isn't technology human-oriented? The vast majority of market products are selfish so to speak.

The vast majority of market products are selfish so to speak. — TheMadFool

It's not a coincidence that natural selection resembles the dynamics of free-market capitalism.

But now, humans can do something about an extinction causing asteroid. We have satellites scanning the skies, missiles and nuclear weapons. This wasn't possible before and so I think this goes in favor of having intelligent life. We can avoid the reset button on life and allow it to make progress if I may say so. — TheMadFool

I think you missed the point of what I was saying. Caring about the Earth is a human value. If we're not here, none of it matters.

Do I even believe that, well, probably about half way.

Well, in OUR opinion we are quite bright. Sometimes we are cursed by being too smart for our own good; sometimes we are just too stupid for words.

We are afflicted by two other curses, however: Hubris, for one, and short-sightedness with respect to consequences.

We are stuck with our curses: Smart, hubristic, and short-sighted. Try as we may, we can not stop being what we are. We think we can solve all kinds of problems, and we can not--for the life of us--plan in any practical way for a hundred years into the future. Usually, anyway. Every now and then somebody thinks and acts in the long term, but usually on a very small scale. They plant slow growing trees, for instance.

But now, humans can do something about an extinction causing asteroid. — TheMadFool

Hubris.

We have not done this. We have not tried to do it. It is way too soon to claim the capacity to divert large asteroids.

Bear in mind that it was the asteroid landing in the Yucatan Peninsula that made it possible for mammals (and us) to emerge from the shadow of Tyrannosaurus Regina and her egg-laying ilk.

Note that I feminized Tyrannosaurus. Equality must be applied to Vertebrate Paleontology. Female monsters resent being erased; being rendered invisible; being silenced; being remarked upon only when they have laid an egg.

There is no end to the evils of patriarchy...

Note that I feminized Tyrannosaurus. Equality must be applied to Vertebrate Paleontology. Female monsters resent being erased; being rendered invisible; being silenced; being remarked upon only when they have laid an egg.

There is no end to the evils of patriarchy... — Bitter Crank

This is as awkward as watching someone vomit; is it funny or is it disturbing? Nevertheless, I must say that you are indeed correct about hubris but it is this that enables short-sightedness. It is not that we are actually incapable of ascertaining consequences - hence being intelligent - but rather our excessive pride deludes us into believing lies to justify bad actions. We make ourselves stupid not because we actually are, but because we want to.

So, it makes me remember I wrote somewhere in my book of quotes the following that thanks to you I just retrieved: "To be able to bear provocation is an argument of great reason, and to forgive it of a great mind. Ignorance and inconsideration are the two great causes of the ruin of man kind." J. Tillotson. Of course, he says mankind, but we get the gist.

No, I think we are actually incapable of dealing with long-term future problems. It isn't just hubris. The reason for this is that we can not "feel" the connection between sacrifices today and goals 50 to 100 years into the future , even). We surely are able to predict what will happen, up to a point, a decade, several decades, a century -- sometimes even a billion years into the future. We can even see what could, would, should be done.

But... stop eating fish and meat today so that agriculture/aquaculture will be more sustainable in 2067? Tax ourselves today to pay for a project that won't be done until 2099? Plant 1 billion trees by 2025 so that in 2125 we can cut them down and build shelters? We can imagine it, but we can't really believe in it. And we may not be able to tell whether the expensive, time-consuming project that won't be done 82 years from now will work, or will be worth it.

Raise 5 billion dollars in taxes per year (just in Miami, New York, Milan, Sydney, Tokyo, or ...) to build flood protection for the 22nd century for low lying cities? "Are you out of your mind?" Miami is already experiencing ocean water infiltration and flooded roads, which locals mostly will not acknowledge. Milan is sinking while oceans are rising.

Take a spoonful of cod liver oil everyday now so your body will be healthy 60 years from now when you are 80 years old? I don't think so.

Is it funny or is it disturbing — TimeLine

It's funny. Laugh.

thanks to you — TimeLine

Happy to be of service.

It's not a coincidence that natural selection resembles the dynamics of free-market capitalism. — Wayfarer

There's something wrong with this line of thinking?

I think you missed the point of what I was saying. Caring about the Earth is a human value. If we're not here, none of it matters. — T Clark

But humans are part of life as a whole. Our values are being changed to be inclusive (all life) rather than exclusive (only human). Don't you think there's some truth in this?

Hubris. — Bitter Crank

Hubris? We're in a position to alter the global environment for better or worse. It's a fact that humans have the power to change the course of history here.

There's something wrong with this line of thinking? — TheMadFool

Not so much that there's anything wrong with it - it's just that it implicitly amounts to a utilitarian ethic, i.e. what is good is the well-adapted, what tends towards survival.

But in answer to your question - the application of intelligence and reason to the human situation is obviously highly important. But when you look at the state of political discourse, especially in the US, then it is a very depressing picture. And also, as President Macron of France said yesterday, it is becoming clear that the world's nations are loosing the war against climate change. But if anything is going to change, it will only be by the application of intelligence and rationality.

(Y)

No, I think we are actually incapable of dealing with long-term future problems. — Bitter Crank

Only a hundred years ago entire landscapes were planted which the owner would never see come to fruition, orchards, plantations, all projects which would not yield for 50-100years.

There are hundreds of people nowadays planting trees, trying to manage our society in such a way as to secure a long term future. We're perfectly capable of it we just don't.

The reason for this is that we can not "feel" the connection between sacrifices today and goals 50 to 100 years into the future , even). — Bitter Crank

Without sounding suspiciously debauch, but what does this connection or 'feel' look like, exactly? Is it that isolated condition from nature that we find ourselves in because the beast of capitalism whispers delicious lies that make us believe meaning can be purchased? If you think of climate change deniers who justify their arguments using pseudoscience, are you entirely sure that it is not because we are intentionally deceiving ourselves for the sake of profit or gain and that this deception is a product of our intelligence?

But... stop eating fish and meat today so that agriculture/aquaculture will be more sustainable in 2067? Tax ourselves today to pay for a project that won't be done until 2099? Plant 1 billion trees by 2025 so that in 2125 we can cut them down and build shelters? We can imagine it, but we can't really believe in it. And we may not be able to tell whether the expensive, time-consuming project that won't be done 82 years from now will work, or will be worth it. — Bitter Crank

Amartya Sen said that the Bengal Famine where 2.1 million people died had nothing to do with food shortages; as my manager always says, it is all about "scaleability" and is a keen advocate of 5-year plans and looking forward. To have an ideal to work towards - whether you reach it or not - is motivation enough to make one work toward reaching that goal. And yet, when you think of these ideals in a much broader scale, such as the United Nations goals to eradicate abject poverty, that should not - like the Bengal Famine - exist in the first place, but it is economics and politics that create the Global South.

1. Amount of money needed each year (in addition to current expenditures) to provide reproductive health care for all women in developing countries - $12 billion

Amount of money spent annually on perfumes in Europe and the United States - $12 billion

2. Amount of money needed each year (in addition to current expenditures) to provide water and sanitation for all people in developing nations - $9 billion

Amount of money spent annually on cosmetics in the United States - $8 billion

3. Combined wealth of the world's richest 225 people - $1 trillion
Combined annual income of the world's poorest 2.5 billion people $1 trillion

So, a small portion of the world's women try to look pretty at the expense of millions of women who die from contracting preventable sexual diseases because they are uninformed with the maternal mortality rate due to little to no access to health care professionals. Sure, the United Nations has this 'goal' but the real issues are much bigger than that and the worst part is that it is preventable. We are intentionally deceiving ourselves for the sake of profit or gain and this is a product of our intelligence.

Take a spoonful of cod liver oil everyday now so your body will be healthy 60 years from now when you are 80 years old? I don't think so. — Bitter Crank

Extra Virgin Olive Oil is a healthier option, tastes fantastic in almost anything, and has a better name.

The figures you quote are disgraceful and I'm certain there are a hundred more such examples, but I'm not seeing the link you're making between these abominations and intelligence. Are you suggesting that everyone knows what's going on but weaves elaborate deceptions to convince themselves they're not monsters for spending more money on perfume than women's health?

Whilst I'm sure such a thing goes on, it would mean that less intelligent people should be less able to deceive themselves and so act more compassionately, but I really don't think this is a pattern we actually see.

We are aware of the instrumental nature of surviving but for no reason. Putting in more energy, stress, all to maintain a human body and mind in order to pursue some happiness principle or some justification we give.

Humans create some mobile phones and self-congratulatory abundance call it "intelligence". A bee creates a beehive and water creates the Grand Canyon.

The greatest creation of humans is hubris. In essence it is all the same, though for marketing reasons, educational institutions have managed to convince us that it is otherwise. Exactly how much money should one pay for a Ph.d, so that s/he can claim to be more intelligent?

The figures you quote are disgraceful and I'm certain there are a hundred more such examples, but I'm not seeing the link you're making between these abominations and intelligence. Are you suggesting that everyone knows what's going on but weaves elaborate deceptions to convince themselves they're not monsters for spending more money on perfume than women's health?

Whilst I'm sure such a thing goes on, it would mean that less intelligent people should be less able to deceive themselves and so act more compassionately, but I really don't think this is a pattern we actually see. — Inter Alia

Good point, Inter Alia. My intent in showcasing those huge and indeed as you say disgraceful disparities in wealth is perhaps aligned more with political deception that engage in a systemic camouflage of social and economic inequality (Keynesian economics is a really good start to this subject) that as a product of capitalism is designed to increase profit at the expense and exploitation of a vast majority. What is intelligent is the formation or development of this economic framework that elicits macro-behavioural principles of consumption and such patterns to make it easy - so to speak - to deceive.

Everyone needs the latest iPhone. Girls apparently need to pencil their eyebrows and men think they need girls that pencil their eyebrows, etc. There is this lack of consciousness of just how absurd people have become and that is a vulnerability in the system which is, in my opinion, intentionally being used. It is not that they lack intelligence (those that participate in this consumption) but rather it is too big or far from their grasp to understand their role in wealth inequality. As said by Marx:

The bourgeoisie, through its established mode of production, produces the seeds of its own destruction: the working class. — Marx

As humans we pride ourselves on being intelligent. Intelligence is a defining feature of being human. — TheMadFool

Non-humans do not have intelligence?

Wisdom is the opposite of folly. Humans may have a great capacity for intelligence, logic and reason, but has it proportionally yielded more, as much, or less wisdom?

We need more empathy, compassion and humility. We need more altruism.

The traditions and cultural achievements that the intelligence you refer to has been used to try to destroy and replace probably contain a wealth of wisdom. But one won't know until he/she shuts up and listens. One who actually does shut up and listen will likely hear what humans have really prided themselves on.

The ultimate purpose may not be there but doesn't that kinda free us to pursue our own subjective goals?

You're diminishing the value of intelligence to diplomas and degrees. What of the greater nature of, let's say, awareness humans can achieve compared to other lifeforms. Whether such awareness is desirable or beneficial is debatable but it is, for what it's worth, unique. It can't be hubris to recognize our own reflection and see that we (humans) stand out from te rest. The question is are we beautiful or are we ugly?

We need more empathy, compassion and humility. We need more altruism — WISDOMfromPO-MO

Isn't it your intelligence or, if you prefer, wisdom, that informs you of this?

Wisdom is a light. Light is good. It makes one aware to ease navigation and plot a course. What makes it a curse is that not everyone wants to know what lurks in the dark. Predators, pitfalls and pointlessness abound and once you KNOW they are there it causes fear for self and loved ones because lovers of ignorance run into the dark laughing, taking others with them.