In a normal distribution from heroism to depravity, only a few people will find themselves at the tail ends--Satan at the end of the left tail of depravity, or Hitler, Idi Amin, Pinochet... take your pick, a few hairs down. Jesus, Buddha, or Frodo are on the right tail end of heroic goodness, and further down on the tail, some unusually good contemporary people--Raoul Wallenberg or Dag Hammarskjold, maybe. Or Dorothy Day, the Delai Lama, Mahatma Gandhi... whoever.

Most of the people are in the middle--not very good, not very bad, not very smart, not very stupid. The real differences that ordinary mortals will notice are in the deviations to the right and left of the central section --15%, 9%, and 4% of the population. We're not going to be close to the 1.7%, .5%, or .01%--the elites of good and evil. People like Cruz, Clinton, Sanders, and Trump come from the middle in terms of intelligence, imagination, honesty, and such (meaning, they might not be that smart, might be quite dull, and might be somewhat dishonest -- like most people) but are toward the tail end when it comes to ambition, drive, ruthlessness, and so on. These days being a successful politician of necessity moves one out on at least the low end of depravity's tail (the end closest to the anus).

Rather than heroes or devils discouraging us, mostly we just don't have it in us to be heroically good or hideously depravèd.

I would disagree. The entire human race is intoxicated under this hero-cult godhead, the Individual who conquers Death (our greatest fear and enemy), the Individual whose Ego Triumphs over the forces of nature and Evil. They are our Heroes precisely because they inspire us to continue to live instead of crumbling to the fear of death.

I mean more than normal people are the real heroes, and if we want to inspire heroism, and courageous action then we need to change the way we view heroes, and I suppose perhaps villains as well.

Don't try to tie your fetish into every single topic, have some range.

You specifically were talking about heroes, thus I provided my opinion. smh

They inspire misanthropy far more than agape. They arrest heroism far more than inspire it. — Wosret

They teach us that only a special kind of elite class can be heroic, and we have to be vain, delusional, childish or foolish to think we can be like them. — Wosret

They make normal people appear less valuable, powerful, competent, and likeable by contrast. — Wosret

They steal away our power to act righteously, and to assert ourselves when it matters most by elevating such attributes into the level of the superhuman. — Wosret

They make us want their prestige, the affection and respect they receive, their superpowers and levels of excellence, which ironically makes their goodness, and heroism more appealing, when it is less significant or impressive coming from a superhuman, risking less, and facing inferior opposition, with all but narrative certainty of success. — Wosret

You are going to have to provide some actual examples of these things occurring in the real world for this to be anything more than ultimately meaningless, self-contained conjecture.

Really? I didn't say superman, Goku, captain planet, Jesus, Buddha, Gandhi, Einstein, Kant, or people like that, but I thought that I was pretty descriptive enough that such examples would easily come to mind. BC seemed to have gotten that quite easily.

I'm not talking about individuals, but specific cases of the things I quoted actually happening. Call me stupid, but I can't bring to mind any examples. You'll have to help me out.

I will try to explain. I think that they make people look shitty by comparison, thus the misanthropy. No one is as good as Jesus, as smart as Einstein (neither of which may not be actually literally true, but that's the rumor). Because they use methods unavailable to people, and are not relatable, even if they inspired heroism, one wouldn't know how to actualize it based on how they did. One can't solve many problems by punching someone in the face like superman.

Just go around telling people that you relate a lot with Jesus, Einstein and superman and see how they react. Suggesting that you're like them is to make an extraordinary claim, that I don't think people would react positively to.

When you present exaggerated human characteristics, they make the real things look less exceptional. Look at all of the photoshopped drugged out, magazine images, which make people in peek physical condition feel self-conscious. Setting the bar too high creates unrealistic expectations, and makes even excellence look shabby.

To mix in superhuman levels of other attributes along with their heroics is to sweeten the deal, as it were. They are more readily idolized for reasons other than the good and moral things they did. I also think that it's clearly less impressive for superman to win a boxing match than an average joe, don't you?

They arrest heroism far more than inspire it. They teach us that only a special kind of elite class can be heroic, and we have to be vain, delusional, childish or foolish to think we can be like them. — Wosret

I think that this part is perhaps the part which can most easily be shown to be a hasty generalisation. Do I even need to provide counterexamples? I bet you can do so yourself. X-men, Avatar, and Harry Potter have clear and unmistakable anti-racist themes. This is inspiring stuff, and the message is not that only a special kind of elite class can be like them in that way, nor does it mean that we'd have to be vain, delusional, childish or foolish to think so.

I will try to explain. I think that they make people look shitty by comparison, thus the misanthropy. No one is as good as Jesus, as smart as Einstein (neither of which may not be actually literally true, but that's the rumor). Because they use methods unavailable to people, and are not relatable, even if they inspired heroism, one wouldn't know how to actualize it based on how they did. One can't solve many problems by punching someone in the face like superman.

Just go around telling people that you relate a lot with Jesus, Einstein and superman and see how they react. Suggesting that you're like them is to make an extraordinary claim, that I don't think people would react positively to.

When you present exaggerated human characteristics, they make the real things look less exceptional. Look at all of the photoshopped drugged out, magazine images, which make people in peek physical condition feel self-conscious. Setting the bar too high creates unrealistic expectations, and makes even excellence look shabby.

To mix in superhuman levels of other attributes along with their heroics is to sweeten the deal, as it were. They are more readily idolized for reasons other than the good and moral things they did. I also think that it's clearly less impressive for superman to win a boxing match than an average joe, don't you? — Wosret

This is complete projection. They do not "make people look shitty by comparison", you perceive anything less than their standards to be shitty by comparison. But you are half right, setting the bar too high does create unrealistic expectations; but that mistake lies with those who make it. Besides, would you rather great people stopped achieving greatness only so the mediocre can look more impressive? Of course not.

Your standards are not set by anything outside of you because they are your standards, they're attributable to you. It is entirely your responsibility and in your control to create your own standards, so ignore magazine covers and romanticised notions of heroism and just do the best of what's in your control. If you want to set standards of beauty, intellect and morality unrealistically high at perfection, go ahead. But to go through life beating yourself up for not being an Einstein or a Jesus is going to cause you all kinds of anxieties and upsets. Dealing with the present and the future in life is very much about managing expectations.

There's a quote by Voltaire which is pertinent here; perfect is the enemy of the good. When you demand nothing less than perfection you miss the more realistic goal of goodness, and you lose out altogether when you almost inevitably fail to achieve perfection - because all things excellent are as difficult as they are rare.

Just look at the politics of the show. The X-men have to fight for equality and acceptance, but pretty much every single villain views themselves as the next "evolution" of the human race, and a superior race to normal humans. Humans never express a similar sentiment about them, they fear them, but not just because they're different, but because they can explode shit with their minds and junk -- they're powerful and dangerous. On Korra, in republic city, benders are clearly the upper class, ruling the government. Aang took over the fucking world -- and the Avatar is like the most super special Buddha type character they can be.

I don't know anything about Harry Potter, except that he's like the chosen one, or some shit, and born with totes awesome elite magic skills.

If you don't think much of your personally identifying with such characters, it's just because they don't know enough about them, or you're a five year old.

You're missing the point, I suggested that heroes should be portrayed as more average people, because being super special awesome isn't, and most other traits that heroes may have to make them look more appealing isn't required. There are still great things to achieve, which one may need to be exceptional at in order to achieve them, but heroism isn't really one of them. Only so many people can be the best mathematician in the world, the most beautiful person, or the greatest musician or something, but everyone can be a hero.

Heroes, the ones people really look up to, are generally superhuman in some respect. They have superpowers, are aliens, son's of gods, or gods themselves. Holy men, eat geniuses, scientists, warriors, philosophers. They inspire misanthropy far more than agape. They arrest heroism far more than inspire it. They teach us that only a special kind of elite class can be heroic, and we have to be vain, delusional, childish or foolish to think we can be like them. They make normal people appear less valuable, powerful, competent, and likeable by contrast. They steal away our power to act righteously, and to assert ourselves when it matters most by elevating such attributes into the level of the superhuman. They make us want their prestige, the affection and respect they receive, their superpowers and levels of excellence, which ironically makes their goodness, and heroism more appealing, when it is less significant or impressive coming from a superhuman, risking less, and facing inferior opposition, with all but narrative certainty of success. — Wosret

Do you know any heros personally? People who fit or come close to your description or are all the examples you cite learned from reading? Normal people can sometimes transcend their normalcy and perform very heroic actions.

Or perhaps the hero, this superhuman, super competent is a figment of our collective imagination. Icons whose role is idealized, and serve as symbolic ends we ought to strive towards.

I would rather look at a failed/broken/flawed hero, like Hamlet. His supernatural power, talking to a ghost, enables him to see the facts behind his father's death. Yet knowing these facts alone is insufficient to cause him to act. His father (the ghost) commands Hamlet to revenge his death with a clear heart, which is a performative challenge that borders on the supernatural.

"But howsoever thou pursuest this act, Taint not thy mind"

The play is about what it takes for Hamlet to act as a man in good faith with clear conscience, which involves his acting crazy to hide his real craze and to reconcile his actions with his mother.

I find flawed heroes more interesting.

No, not really. I pretty much modelled myself after the most perfect fictional character I know of. I heard this idea watching a TED talk, so I thought I'd present it here, and see what people thought.

Some flaws are nice though, especially if they're things to overcome in themselves, which humanizes them -- some heroes are flawless though, and it doesn't really subtract from them, I don't think.

Just look at the politics of the show. The X-men have to fight for equality and acceptance, but pretty much every single villain views themselves as the next "evolution" of the human race, and a superior race to normal humans. Humans never express a similar sentiment about them, they fear them, but not just because they're different, but because they can explode shit with their minds and junk -- they're powerful and dangerous. — Wosret

I have looked at the politics of the X-Men franchise. I too know very little about Harry Potter, but apparently, based on an article I read, there's a clear and unmistakable anti-racist theme there as well. :D

I didn't, however, need the article to obtain this knowledge about X-Men - having been a fan since childhood, having read some of the comics, having seen much of the original television series, and having seen all of the non-animated films. The presence of this theme within Avatar was also pretty clear to me, having seen the film.

I don't really get your reply, to be honest. There are some parallels between their fictional world and our own, and the intended message is positive and allegorical. To focus on the fact that they're powerful and can do things like blow shit up with their minds, and that some of them are dangerous; and to focus on the villains, who always get defeated in the end; and to focus on the misguided, irrational, discriminatory non-mutant populous, is to utterly miss the point.

[The X-Men franchise] draws deliberate parallels between the oppression of mutants and that of other marginalized groups. As long-time X-Men writer Chris Claremont explained back in 1982, "The X-Men are hated, feared, and despised collectively by humanity for no other reason than that they are mutants. So what we have..., intended or not, is a book that is about racism, bigotry, and prejudice." As a result, these important but usually avoided themes have become part of the dialogue - both online and at the kitchen table.

The importance of being comfortable and proud in one's skin is one of several prosocial messages of X-Men First Class, as well as of the original trilogy.

One of the most popular themes in popular fiction's depiction of group prejudice is the drawing of explicit parallels between the plight of the fictional group and real-world historical oppression, most commonly the Holocaust and the legalized segregation in the South under Jim Crow. Although the comics pursued both analogies at length, until X-Men First Class, the films had focused primarily on the latter, drawing a variety of explicit and unmistakable parallels between Xavier's and Magneto's fight for mutant rights and the U.S. Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s. On the surface, the parallels seem well-informed. The mob violence and the hateful slogans (e.g., "The only good mutant is a dead mutant") are remarkably familiar, and the anti-mutant hate groups, such as Friends of Humanity and the Church of Humanity, are clearly intended to represent real oppressive forces like the Ku Klux Klan and a variety of other Christian Identity and White Supremacy groups. — Mikhail Lyubansky, Ph.D

Mikhail Lyubansky, Ph.D., is a member of the teaching faculty in the Department of Psychology at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, where he teaches Psychology of Race and Ethnicity, Theories of Psychotherapy, and a graduate-level seminar on restorative justice.

He does also point out some perceived flaws with the message they send, but he acknowledges the good, which is the point that I'm emphasising, contrary to your one-sided take on the topic.

Yeah, but there is a problem with that, in that the x-men are almost exclusively white dudes, I don't see it being held up by oppressed minorities as totes understanding their plights, and, like I said, the x-men are painted as a superior race, that are oppressed by a fear of their power, by an inferior majority. All of the mutant villains want to suppress, or kill all normal humans, because they're an inferior race. This is never paralleled by human villains, which are just afraid of mutants, and often hide mutant family members, or have personal investments, and often also repent and see the error of their ways just after initiating events that are out of their control.

Apocalypse isn't going to be that way, I promise.

It may be meant to parallel the plights of black people and stuff, but it really doesn't. The efforts and fears of normal people are often warranted, they grow, and accept them, change their ways, and all of that. The villainous mutants are always the actual racists, and they never fucking repent.

You're missing the point. I suggested that heroes should be portrayed as more average people, because being super special awesome isn't, and most other traits that heroes may have to make them look more appealing isn't required. — Wosret

There already are plenty of examples of a more down-to-earth heroism to be found in film, TV, literature, and other artistic media. It would be boring if it was all the same sort of thing, rather than there being a variety. Superman and others are very entertaining. Clark Kent is no where near as entertaining as his alter ego.

Have you seen Superman V Batman? He isn't entertaining recently.

No, I haven't seen it, but my personal opinion is irrelevant. I was making a general point. I still find (or at least did at one point) the Superman films entertaining, but he's not my fave. I reckon I'd find Superman V Batman entertaining, but I'm looking forward to the new X-Men film a lot more.

Goku is way better, though not lately either, unfortunately. Sure, he has universal destructive capabilities now, but it's also implied that you could just knife him in his sleep as well, if he isn't ready...

I also am looking forward to the X men movie, Marvel makes some damn good movies.

I find the whole Dragon Ball franchise pretty ridiculous. Just not to my taste. Naruto's where it's at.

I'm not into bromances. Goku pwns all of the faces.

They have silly vegetable-related names, they look silly (big, muscular, colourful aliens), and they make silly noises (lengthy, increasingly loud and exaggerated cries when in battle).

Yeah, it doesn't take itself too seriously, and powering up is super hard!

You may want to look at the April 6 comic Black Panther (Marvel Hero), which was written by Ta-Nehisi Coates, a writer for the Atlantic Mag & 2015 National Book Award winner. Here for interview with Ta-Nehisi re the comic: http://www.vice.com/read/ta-nehisi-coates-talks-about-black-panther-and-writing-from-a-black-experience

I'm not saying that it can't be done, just that x-men doesn't do it. I think that a better argument can be made that the x-men are actually communists, and not a different race. They look like everyone else, and blend right in at all levels of public life, but keep a dirty commie secret.

Heroes, the ones people really look up to, are generally superhuman in some respect. They have superpowers, are aliens, son's of gods, or gods themselves. Holy men, great geniuses, scientists, warriors, philosophers. They inspire misanthropy far more than agape. They arrest heroism far more than inspire it. They teach us that only a special kind of elite class can be heroic, and we have to be vain, delusional, childish or foolish to think we can be like them. They make normal people appear less valuable, powerful, competent, and likeable by contrast. They steal away our power to act righteously, and to assert ourselves when it matters most by elevating such attributes into the level of the superhuman. They make us want their prestige, the affection and respect they receive, their superpowers and levels of excellence, which ironically makes their goodness, and heroism more appealing, when it is less significant or impressive coming from a superhuman, risking less, and facing inferior opposition, with all but narrative certainty of success. — Wosret

The hero dares you: be great! Alexander the Great dares you - be great as I was great. So yes - the hero absolutely mocks you, because he knows that inside you lies something more powerful than you think - and to accede to that, you must have the folly to drop your weakness, and take the leap!

Hum... may I complete this?

Heroes, the ones people really lookup, are generally superhuman in some respect. They have superpowers, are aliens, son's of gods, or gods themselves. Holy men, great geniuses, sicentists, warriors, philosophers. — Wosret

I dont like that, I want to be seen as a superstar too, even though I serve fish an chips, and I'm not "holy" at all.

They inspire misanthropy far more than agape. They arrest heroism far more than inspire it. They teach us that only a special kind of elite class can be heroic, and we have to be vain, delusional, childish or foolish to think we can be like them. — Wosret

Specially Roschach. Also Monkey D Luffy. It's more than evident that thestory is teaching mysantrhopy and to be dellusional.

They make normal people appear less valuable, powerful, competent, and likeable by contrast. — Wosret

My fish and chips are as valuable as batman fortune, as powerful as thor hammer, as competent as Stark industries, as likeable as Hume books. It's all heros fault.

They steal away our power to act righteously, and to assert ourselves when it matters most by elevating such attributes into the level of the superhuman. — Wosret

Even though all they do is saving us most of times. Somehow I can't be good if they are.

They make us want their prestige, the affection and respect they receive, their superpowers and levels of excellence, which ironically makes their goodness, and heroism more appealing, when it is less significant or impressive coming from a superhuman, risking less, and facing inferior opposition, with all but narrative certainty of success — Wosret

Yeah, all we want is prestige, there is no other reason to be a hero. And all heros have allways a easy life, in all stories.



Life is like it is, we like some people more than other, nobody told us to do so. Nah, maybe you are right, Lets talk about football, about porn, the true "heroes" of the people. They teach us to be more kindly. They spread pure filantrophy.

The Dune series has a running theme about the dangers of hero worship.