I think if your risky "advance" is some sort of sexual touching then you're doing it wrong. Is it so hard to ask/wait for verbal confirmation? — Michael
But you might follow it up with one. In fact it might be expected and desired. And still with no verbal confirmation. — jamalrob
(I don't care if you wouldn't do it yourself; I'm pointing out that people and situations differ)
When did verbal communication become more reliable than any other form? — Hanover
As in "can we now has sex?" as If that's how it ever happens. When did verbal communication become more reliable than any other form? A robotic "yes, have sex with me" response is less convincing than her physical expressions may be. I'd find it more troubling if she signed a consent form than if she didn't.
I think it should be accepted as the norm, and I don't believe a single unrepeated unwanted advance amounts to harassment, although certainly it might sometimes be totally unacceptable. — jamalrob
It's revealing that you describe sexual advances with sordid expressions such as "cop a feel", and "grab an arse". What I think it reveals is the prudishness and regressiveness of the movement. Sexual advances do not always have the character of a grab, a grope or a lunge. — jamalrob
Sure, it might be pushing the language to call it harassment, but if it's "totally unacceptable" then surely it shouldn't be accepted as the norm? — Michael
Does it matter what you call it? — Michael
It's unacceptable to pounce on a stranger, put your hand down his trousers and feel his balls, and it shouldn't be acceptable. That doesn't go against my point. Not all sexual advances are like that. — jamalrob
No, it doesn't justify making random assumptions about people. But maybe the assumption isn't random - maybe I've seen them watching BDSM, maybe they told me they tried it and liked it in the past, etc.Sure, and there are people out there who like BDSM. But you don't use that to try to justify acting on the assumption that maybe the person you're with likes that sort of thing. — Michael
If my way, and the way of these #MeToo people are the same, then let them follow me and my rules. If a woman goes scantily dressed and is grabbed, 3 months in jail for both the woman and the man who grabbed her. If you, and the #MeToo movement disagree with that, then you're not trying to do the same thing as I am.
If my way, and the way of these #MeToo people are the same, then let them follow me and my rules. If a woman goes scantily dressed and is grabbed, 3 months in jail for both the woman and the man who grabbed her. If you, and the #MeToo movement disagree with that, then you're not trying to do the same thing as I am. — Agustino
It depends on what kind of interaction you've had with him up to that point, and on the qualities of that interaction. In my scenario--I possibly didn't describe it in enough detail--I had in mind coming up behind a man in the street and reaching around. I'm not sure why that came to mind, but hey. — jamalrob
Yes they can. How about they stop going to clubs, they stop dressing almost naked, etc. Then they will really make a point. Can you imagine it? Only men in the clubs? Then even the clubs will go out of business! What will the men grab? Each other's bottoms? Grabbing keeps happening precisely because of complicity in sharing in a morally corrupt culture.They can't be much clearer about that than they have been recently. — Benkei
No, it's not worth trying to stop it in a stupid & hypocritical way. It's a systematic problem that emerges out of the cultural understanding and lack of moral values that Western man (and woman) have about sex.So, what? It's not worth trying? That we shouldn't at least hold the guilty accountable (e.g. Weinstein)? — Michael
I think the difficulty with your contextuality argument - although I basically agree with it - is that if enough twits overstep a certain sort of mark, then a rule starts being introduced. Like driving on one side of the road or the other, for instance. Pedestrians manage without such a rule but drivers can't. So it's worth thinking about what 'a certain sort of mark' is constituted by. 'Using power for sexual ends' might be one aspect of a description. — mcdoodle
Your comments express a wish to impose a regime of flirtation that you believe is the only permissible one. I was pointing out that it's not always easy, and in some of those cases it is worth trying (for both parties, obviously). — jamalrob
I'm referring to the sort of situation where a woman hugs you and you think it's OK to have a feel of her breasts. — Michael
I don't know what world you live in, but I remember in your country I was at a club, and a fellow collegue came to me, and he said: "Wanna see what I do?" and I said "sure". So he went through the club, and every girl on the dancing floor he started grabbing, and trying to kiss, even when they physically resisted in fact, he did not stop. And what happened to him? Nothing. And he did that not once, but every time he was in the club - which was at least once every week. So good luck convincing your fellow Brits - more like they'll laugh in your face. There is no convincing these brutes. — Agustino
A feature of the #me2 movement is that they are unwilling to distinguish between a pat on a woman's derriere and rape — Bitter Crank
That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. The point of the #MeToo movement is that this shouldn't be accepted as the norm. Yes, there are times where people might be receptive to it, but given how often people aren't receptive to it and the fact that it's worse to be harassed than to be left waiting for someone else to make the first move, it's proper to err on the side of caution. — Michael
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