Simply being in the US without the appropriate documentation is not a crime, it's considered a civil matter under US law. Deportation is a civil penalty, not a criminal punishment. As a result, the separation of parents and their children is illegal under the treaties the US has signed up to. — Benkei

You are right in that simply being in this country without appropriate documentation is not a crime. Neither is entering at a point of entry. But as soon as they enter illegally, are caught crossing the border and I think within 100 miles of the border, they have committed a crime.

Again I ask, what would you suggest we do? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

If you think changes need to be made fine, but children are not political barging chips, destroying families in the meantime to use as political pressure is morally wrong. Stop the new policy, then work on immigration reform. The only reason Trump is doing it this way is because while he lacks a soul himself he knows he can use the moral hang ups of the Dems to pressure them. It is sick and wrong. Nothing you have actually said justifies the continuation of this situation.

@Benkei

Whether it’s by crossing the U.S. border with a "coyote" or buying a fake U.S. passport, a foreign national who enters the U.S. illegally can be both convicted of a crime and held responsible for a civil violation under the U.S. immigration laws. Illegal entry also carries consequences for anyone who might later attempt to apply for a green card or other immigration benefit.

Nothing you have actually said justifies the continuation of this situation. — Jeremiah

It is really simple, we are overwhelmed at the border entry points. It is suggested that asylum seekers are not aware of the Zero Tolerance policy, which is why we need secure borders. So we can take those presenting themselves, listen to their reason and get them out of harms way. But to think that we can do that once they are in the country, is to revert back to the "Catch and Release" program and that was not working. Does that compute?

You are right in that simply being in this country without appropriate documentation is not a crime. Neither is entering at a point of entry. But as soon as they enter illegally, are caught crossing the border and I think within 100 miles of the border, they have committed a crime. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Who cares? In what way does that justify ripping a family apart? And I don't mean legally, I mean morally? You keep asking what else do we do, regardless of the fact this is a new policy and a new tactic. Trump just needs stop doing it. It really is that simple. You act like if you can somehow prove it is legally justify then that morally justifies it; however, that is not so, it would still be evil.

If you think changes need to be made fine, but children are not political barging chips, destroying families in the meantime to use as political pressure is morally wrong. Stop the new policy, then work on immigration reform. The only reason Trump is doing it this way is because while he lacks a soul himself he knows he can use the moral hang ups of the Dems to pressure them. It is sick and wrong. — Jeremiah

He wants secure borders. Period. Full STOP.
He has been pushing for a secure border since he thought of running for President. He has tried to get two sides together in how to secure it and they scream it is inhumane to put up a barrier, a wall in some places and technology in others.

As most things in life, this is not going to get solved until all sides are willing to compromise to find a solution to a problem.

You actually think destroying families is "better"? Is that really your potion?

He wants secure borders. Period. Full STOP. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

And Hitler wanted to take over the world. Period. Full STOP.

The ends do not justify the means. These are children, it is our duty as adults to protect them.

Who cares? — Jeremiah

I was trying to clarify with @Benkei as to what the law is, so I care and he responded so I think he cares. I don't think anyone here doesn't care about the situation and isn't looking for a solution.

The ends do not justify the means. These are children. — Jeremiah

What is your solution?

I personally don't think you care much about the children, at least not as much as you over-hyped fear of your own imagination.

You actually think destroying families is "better"? Is that really your potion? — Jeremiah

Are you reading my posts or are you just responding emotionally?

Now it is only a few post thick, I think I have stated my position several times.

I think I have stated my position several times. — Jeremiah

You have stated it is wrong and it needs to stop. You have offered nothing in the way of a solution.

You have stated it is wrong and it needs to stop. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Wait, let me get this straight. You are telling me that I stated my own position wrong?

Wait, let me get this clear. You are telling me that I stated my own position wrong? — Jeremiah

You have stated the Zero Tolerance policy is wrong and it needs to stop, right?

Yes, that is my position.

Are you reading my posts or are you just responding emotionally? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Perhaps your problem is that you are not looking at this emotionally.

Perhaps your problem is that you are not looking at this emotionally. — Jeremiah

Perhaps. Here is a first hand account vs the man charged to enforce the Zero Tolerance policy, trying to separate facts from fiction. There is a suggestion about the height of emotion involved and whether or not it is appropriate.

Maybe we should also look at the economic gains of slavery without emotions. Morally is comprised of reason and emotion, you don't get a moral result if you exclude one of those elements. I really did already comment on all this.

Trump is tearing families apart and the suggested solution here is to forgot about the emotional aspect of taking children from their parents. So I guess that means in order to accept Trump's polices all one has to do is become a sociopath.

Maybe we should also look at the economic gains of slavery without emotions. Morally is comprised of reason and emotion, you don't get a moral result if you exclude one of those elements. I really did already comment on all this. — Jeremiah

With all due respect Jeremiah, you also brought up Hitler earlier in addition to slavery now and I am not going to compare the two. Not for fear of semblance but because I will not disparage what concentration camps victims and survivors have gone through.

I also brought up many other points that you are glossing over.

I also brought up many other point that you are glossing over. — Jeremiah

Jeremiah, you have brought up many valid points but have yet to offer a solution.

Actually I gave a solution, you just didn't like it. While your solution is to torture little kids. Given the two choices, I think mine is better.

With all due respect Jeremiah, you also brought up Hitler earlier in addition to slavery now and I am not going to compare the two. Not for fear of semblance but because I will not disparage what concentration camps victims and survivors have gone through. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Um....

By the way, I have a great Uncle who is a Holocaust survivor, and he has been very vocal about certain parallels and affinities between Nazi Germany and Trump's America, this policy in particular.

@Maw

In January 2017, software engineer Russel Neiss and Rabbi Charlie Schwartz set up a Twitter account which tweeted the names of each passenger who was not allowed to disembark and subsequently killed. The format of each tweet included the passenger's name, the sentence "The US turned me away at the border in 1939" and the location where each was killed.[27]

Maw, that is a chilling link.

Whether it’s by crossing the U.S. border with a "coyote" or buying a fake U.S. passport, a foreign national who enters the U.S. illegally can be both convicted of a crime and held responsible for a civil violation under the U.S. immigration laws. Illegal entry also carries consequences for anyone who might later attempt to apply for a green card or other immigration benefit.

You're right, I wasn't aware that entering illegally could be prosecuted. However, it doesn't really make sense. You want to have them leave the country and instead put them in jail. In jail, they don't add to the economy and our only a drain on resources. And while it's true that the children cannot be criminally prosecuted, the civil penalty can be levied against them. Since, the civil penalty of deportation would suffice to reach the goal of removing illegal immigrants from US soil, there is no objective reason to elect the prosecutorial route. Also note that per the link you sent me only fines or imprisonment are possible punishment, not deportation.

The prosecution of the parents and the children ending up (presumably) with ICE, means it's difficult if not impossible for them to keep into contact, to be separately deported or imprisoned from each other and basically be unable to find each other even after they are released (in the case of parents) or deported (in the case of children).

Second, there is no objective reason why you'd separate children and parents while held to be deported. In practice, ICE normally does not take parents with very young children into custody but it is possible. Which is I think is an appropriate proportional decision in most cases. So if you want to be strict, you can take families into custody together under the civil procedure.

It's quite obvious to me that "zero tolerance" has been elected not for its effectiveness but for scare tactics. They have chosen to be cruel to children and parent in order to reach an abstract goal (less illegal border crossings). Aside from the ethical question whether that's necessary and proportional (I don't think it is), it isn't even proved that the goal will be reached through these means.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised you're defending this. It might be legally permissible to pursue illegal entry like this it's neither economical nor ethical and I'm suprised the latter does not already convince you this is wrong.

Maw, that is a chilling link — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Exactly, and we are doing essentially the same thing today by turning away asylum seekers - men, women and children who are trying to escape abuse, cartel violence etc., only to ship them back to where it is likely they will be killed.