BUT WHAT ABOUT RAPE YOU SAY?
Yes……I cannot make the same causality argument in rape because the woman was not a willing participant in the sex which caused the pregnancy. — LostThomist
The only possibly legitimate exception is when the life of the mother is threatened. There, the principle of double effect becomes relevant, so that if the child is killed in an attempt to save the life of the mother without intending to harm the child, the abortion in that case is morally permissible. — Thorongil
it is philosophically impossible to claim that any group after conception is less than metaphysically human.
THEREFORE: Biological Human life begins at conceptions the same as all other mammals — LostThomist
For the purpose of a clear argument I will (for the time being) separate being biologically human from any concept of personhood. In doing so it is undeniable to say that biological human life begins at conception. — LostThomist
The sperm and egg alone cannot grow a fully functional human body with free will. It is not until the sperm and egg meet that a substantial change happens and a human life begins. There is no other point in the development of the human body after conception that can be proven as the substantial change other than conception itself. — LostThomist
And, furthermore, you beg the question here by saying conception is the substantial change that happens where human life begins, even within your metaphysical argument. — Moliere
That's just a fact. It's not like conception is any more magical than any of the other points which you argue against.
I'd say that none of them magically make a human being -- that there simply is no point along the chain of events that magically makes a human being human. — Moliere
With all due respect.....that is not really responding philosophically or academically, but rather using a bizarre standard for writing on a website that is all about philosophy (which often requires lengthy definitions and explanations) — LostThomist
You can cut down the pedant's speech. Philosophy doesn't require that we speak through a chicken's anus (now I doubt this idiom is going to translate). — Akanthinos
"Read other works of the philosophers"...? Are you often this condescending. — Akanthinos
And it's traditional to introduce oneself before launching into an endless moralizing tirade. — Akanthinos
What I mean by “double effect” is that the intention has to be to save the mother and NOT to directly end the life of the baby. — LostThomist
Thus by using this example as a case for not making abortion illegal is bad logic. You are using a VERY obscure exemption that does not affect the main topic because the example is so rare. — LostThomist
↪LostThomist Hello. Well done for acknowledging that it is possible to believe that human life begins at conception but personhood does not. That is the position of some of the more sophisticated philosophers that argue about the permissibility of abortion, such as Peter Singer.
Unfortunately, you did not address the arguments made by Singer and others that we cannot reasonably call an embryo a person. Their argument is essentially that it is a much less significant harm to kill an organism that has no well-developed consciousness, self-awareness, sense of purpose or of the future, than one that does. The section labelled 'LEVEL OF DEVELOPMENT' could have addressed this, but did not do so. The only part that comes close to it is the bit about the super-intelligent aliens killing us. But that would not apply if the threshold for personhood were to be set at some absolute minimum level rather than at a level that is relative to the sophistication of the being that is thinking of doing the killing. I believe the usual utilitarian arguments for permissibility of abortion are based on setting absolute minimum levels for personhood, not relative levels.
But having said that, I do not necessarily disagree that, if super-intelligent aliens were to come to Earth, it would be fair enough for them to kill and eat us. It seems only fair, given how ready humans are to kill and eat other mammals just because they are not as sophisticated as we are. — andrewk
You do not mean development exactly? -You mean that born human persons have an intellect and a consciousness that is higher than the pre-born and therefore you have the right to kill the pre-born? Take care yet again. By this rule you are to be victim to the first person who has an intellect and a consciousness that is higher than your own.
Right. I don't use it as a case for making abortion legal. I'm assuming the "you" here is meant generally and is not directed at me. — Thorongil
That is rather condescending yourself and insulting to a work of philosophical thought for which I have worked hard to create. I demand an apology. — LostThomist
Welcome to the forum. In order to hang around here, especially if you plan to support unpopular ideas, it's best if you prepare to be treated un-civilly. Actually, prepare to be treated un-civilly no matter what ideas you support. — T Clark
In doing so it is undeniable to say that biological human life begins at conception. — LostThomist
THEREFORE It is impossible to not give humans from conception the same basic rights of personhood as all other human beings first of most is the right to life. — LostThomist
Bullshit. I treated him with professional respect and I expect the same........in fact the forum rules as they are written expect the same. — LostThomist
Well, no. It's not undeniable. I don't consider 8 cells human life. — T Clark
What you call your "scientific claim" is nothing more than a restatement of the common claim that life begins at conception. It's a definition, not a fact. It's your definition, not mine.
Just because I take a branch from a tree, does not mean that the branch becomes a tree
Likewise, just because I took away one branch from the tree, does not mean that the tree looses its tree-ness — LostThomist
And, as I said, in my opinion eight cells is not a tree. — T Clark
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