The food we enjoy is going to be a subjective issue no matter how you slice it. — Bitter Crank
I'm favorably disposed toward animals, wild or domestic, but that isn't the same as determining their moral status. — Bitter Crank
I value elephants; I may be willing to grant them moral status and the protection due intelligent beings. The problem I find is working out moral status for the rest of the animal kingdom. The moral value I see in my loving, faithful, intelligent dog I can't automatically extend to voles, moles, or rats, and gnats. — Bitter Crank
The fact that you are actually able to debate what kind of protein you want to consume says that me and my trigger pulling ancestors did something right; your'e welcome — Sid
But after that, your food choices have real life consequences for the rest of the world. — NKBJ
it's totally irrelevant which animals you personally like or dislike. — NKBJ
All of your lifestyle choices, in all areas of life, have real life consequences for the rest of the world — Bitter Crank
abstract morality about animals. You are an ideologue (which is not a slander) and you've staked all your arguments on morals. Other people will approach the problem differently. If you can't tolerate that, tough. — Bitter Crank
Were animals able to more clearly preach against their brains being electrocuted, throats being slit, and so on and so forth, perhaps more people would listen. — Buxtebuddha
How would it not be? The question would be about evaluating one's own life against another sentient being's. Is deciding who lives and who dies not a moral dilemma? — BlueBanana
I am saying that the contextual shift is not sufficient enough to transform the behaviour into a moral issue. — Andrew4Handel
Animals will die whether or not we eat them. We didn't invent death or eating or predation. — Andrew4Handel
Exceptions in morality help us navigate situations in which two or more moral claims are at odds with another. — NKBJ
What way would you like animals to die? — Andrew4Handel
I am puzzled about morality anyway because it seems in conflict with nature There is no clear moral guidance from nature or human nature about what we should aspire to if anything. — Andrew4Handel
It's also not enough to make it a non-moral issue. — BlueBanana
I don't want animals to die unless they must. — Buxtebuddha
That would not be you. You're just proselytizing. — Bitter Crank
Every animal must die.
In the wild animals either starve to death are eaten (alive) or die of disease. How do you cope with death in a nature? — Andrew4Handel
Don't click on this link if you are squeamish but it is footage of a Deer being eaten alive by Komodo dragons and there are lots more videos like this on Youtube. — Andrew4Handel
I don't think you can go from people killing animals to eat them for nutrition to a comparison with torture for fun because one is innately natural. — Andrew4Handel
Every animal must die. — Andrew4Handel
In the wild animals either starve to death are eaten (alive) or die of disease. How do you cope with death in a nature? — Andrew4Handel
This is so clearly the statement of a person who has no logical leg to stand on, but wishes to cling to his own ideology (and hamburger). :smirk: — NKBJ
What's the point of these examples? Are you implying we ought to take lizards as our moral role models? Alligators eat their own young--is that something we ought to emulate as well? — NKBJ
That is called the naturalistic fallacy. — NKBJ
The lion that hunts the gazelle does so out of survival. In order to live, life must consume itself. Most ethics understand this fundamental truth. — Buxtebuddha
2. We only recently in history started eating larger animals--we did spend most of our existence eating grubs, termites, and ants to supplement our mainly plant-based diets. The more natural thing for us to do would be to eat insects--have fun with that. — NKBJ
What's the point of these examples? Are you implying we ought to take lizards as our moral role models? Alligators eat their own young--is that something we ought to emulate as well? — NKBJ
Why would they not be?questioning whether food and related areas are suitable moral issues. — Andrew4Handel
I don't know anybody that says that. Let's not confuse acceptance that one cannot do anything to prevent X with indifference to X.But if someone says they are not concerned with starvation in nature and animals being eaten alive then I can't take their ethical objections seriously. — Andrew4Handel
What makes something a suitable moral issue? — andrewk
It's not going nowhere. I became a vegetarian and started giving significant amounts to Oxfam and similar organisations after reading Peter Singer's 'Practical Ethics'. I know others that have been similarly influenced by philosophical literature to change their lives to do less harm and be more helpful to others,There is a massive moral philosophy literature going nowhere. — Andrew4Handel
We are not talking about 'authoritative'. To wish for a moral argument to be authoritative is to wish for the impossible. You said the literature was 'going nowhere'. I gave examples of where it has led to a reduction of the suffering in the world, thereby contradicting that claim. There are such examples everywhere for those that care to look. Heavens, the ending of slavery was based on moral arguments. Who cares that such arguments were not authoritative, and that it did not have near universal agreement? What matters is that they ended slavery.For a moral argument to be authoritative it would have to receive almost universal agreement — Andrew4Handel
An animal can (hypothetically/occasionally is) live longer in captivity and be treated nicely and then killed swiftly but I think most vegans object to just the taking of an animals life but considering there is no nice way to die in nature its seems incoherent. — Andrew4Handel
I don't agree with the concept of a naturalistic fallacy because... where else but nature can we get moral guidance from? — Andrew4Handel
These kind of points need to be subject to expert scrutiny. Where did the term hunter gatherer derive from and why do ancient cave murals depict hunting? — Andrew4Handel
The idea that harming animals is wrong is also derived from nature and passing value judgement on natural occurrences. — Andrew4Handel
Again: so because humans must die (and death is never "nice") it is therefore okay to kill them? — NKBJ
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