Why this disconnect between human desire and philosophy? Especially now desire seems now to be at the very centre of contemporary Western culture? — Kym
1. How can philosophy get its hands dirty again with the lived reality of individual desire? — Kym
2. How can philosophy influence the trajectory of a culture seemingly caught in death spiral down a vortex of desire?
It's pretty obvious that no sentient being gets to live much past teatime without the faculty of desire. So desire certainly can't be flat out bad then. But it can go bad pretty easily, especially in the absence of any checks and balances.
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For us philosophical hold-outs two questions skulk in the corners like reluctant elephants:
1. How can philosophy get its hands dirty again with the lived reality of individual desire?
2. How can philosophy influence the trajectory of a culture seemingly caught in death spiral down a vortex of desire? — Kym
You give lip service to eastern philosophies, then ignore them. The Second Noble Truth of Buddhism is "Desire and ignorance lie at the root of suffering." Maybe you don't find the eastern approach to existence and value useful, but that doesn't mean your issue is being ignored. — T Clark
I'm interested in what you mean by "get its hands dirty again" -- you reference the stoics, so I think you might have something like establishing a school. But I find it hard to imagine that such a thing would be possible now. — Moliere
If we are beasts more motivated by desire than reason, and reason be the standard of philosophy, then we should expect philosophy to be ineffectual in influencing people. — Moliere
Philosophy is relatively weak in comparison with other means of influencing people. It's only really effective in self-reflection; which can include other people, but still requires that commitment to self-criticism and examination. — Moliere
A truism: we all want for that which we want to be obtained as we want it obtained (no magic genies in bottles playing tricks with our wishes, kind of thing) — javra
I guess you can tell I was kind of disappointed my university didn't look like Epicurus' garden — Kym
Actually I think of both desire and philosophy as being amongst a range of vital human faculties. Likely there was never a golden age, but there seems to be an great imbalance in the culture at the moment. — Kym
Yeah I agree, it's very weak alone. Maybe a group effort from civilisation's full faculties will be required - art, science, religion — Kym
A truism: we all want for that which we want to be obtained as we want it obtained (no magic genies in bottles playing tricks with our wishes, kind of thing) — javra
I'm not sure if you mean this as a description of what does happen or what should happen. Reading on, I suspect the latter. — Kym
IMO much suffering has been facilitated by the ease in which we separate events into 'means' and 'ends'. This is a false dichotomy it seems to me, that fails to insulate the ends from any dubious means undertaken: The quality of the means used seems to always infuse into that of the achieved ends. Those damned roosting chickens! — Kym
I then got a bit lost in your discussion on the role of causality. Can you simplify it for me Javra? — Kym
[...] to desire/intend is to seek an end and then chose one’s actions accordingly in manners governed by the obtainment of this pursued end. — javra
Actually, other than my Philo degree my other so-called-training has been in Mahayana Buddhism via Zen. What I like do about that approach is that they actually offer practical mental exercises that can help bring desire into some balance. What I don't like about Eastern philosophies is the destructive forms they manifest after getting re-interpreted (corrupted let's say) by the cultures they move through (East and West) — Kym
Now, I’m of course not denying the reality of often competing desires one chooses between and of the differences between short- and long-term intentions and their priorities. But I do argue that any choice made between competing desires will be itself made with a goal—hence, a desire—in mind … a goal which we want to obtain (to which I still think the offered truism applies). — javra
More lip service. Reducing eastern philosophies to "practical mental exercises" while ignoring the fact that they represent a metaphysics in some ways in exact opposition to those represented in western approaches. — T Clark
1. How can philosophy get its hands dirty again with the lived reality of individual desire?
2. How can philosophy influence the trajectory of a culture seemingly caught in death spiral down a vortex of desire? — Kym
Have you read any Schopenhauer? — schopenhauer1
Seems to me that you and Kym are using the word "desire" in two different ways. First, desire as "a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen." This is the type of desire the Buddhists are talking about, the kind I thought Kym was referring to in the original post; the kind that leads to consumerism, alienation, and environmental degradation. But you're also using to mean intentions, motivations, and goals. Completely different things. In a sense, opposites. — T Clark
Ideally, I don't eat because I desire food. I eat because I'm hungry. My body has signaled to me it needs food. On the other hand, I often eat out of desire, not hunger. The desire has nothing to do with responding to my body's nutritional needs. It fulfills some other need tied up with longing and fantasy. — T Clark
Actually, my interest goes a little deeper than that. I've got a weakness for metaphysics that a good Zen teacher might like to beat out me. Anyway if you are interested in my half-baked grasp of Buddhist metaphysics I'd invite you to join the discussion of the thread called 'Consciousness - What's the Problem'. Especially today's dialogues. I'm just a tryer though so keep your expections low. — Kym
I'd say that these both qualify as kinds of desire. — Moliere
You talk about how the west has "corrupted" Buddhism. Does me using the Tao Te Ching the way I do corrupt Taoism? Did the Taoist religionists corrupt Taoist philosophy? Did Martin Luther corrupt Catholicism? Does New Age claptrap corrupt everything it touches? Well, yes to that. Can you suggest alternative sources for westerners to get the insights eastern philosophies provide? I'm reading a paper now discussing whether the Tao is the same as Kant's noumenon. The difference, of course, is that Lao Tzu describes it in 80 short verses while Kant takes volumes and volumes and still can't get it right. — T Clark
I’m holding on what I take to be logical grounds that even the most enlightened of Buddhists will hold “a strong feeling of wanting to have [obtained Nirvana] or wishing for [Nirvana] to happen. — javra
Here again I so far disagree. Hunger is a more rudimentary desire/longing/intention of our mind, whose intention it is to satisfy the physical requirement of our bodies ( — javra
I wouldn't have the gall to try and guide anyone to sources insght. I have so very little myself. Just now I'm trying out subscribing to a philosophy forum! Good luck with your investigations though. — Kym
Speak up Kym. — T Clark
Ok I was snoozing there, hoping you'd wake me gently when you'd all settled on the definition.
I haven't followed all the to's amd fro's, but what I meant was desire as any kind of want. Not bad in itself (essential really for living things) but when it gets elevated as a central cultral icon there's sure to be trouble afoot. — Kym
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