• Streetlight
    9.1k
    What is the nature of a problem? Aristotle figured he could answer the question this way: "The difference between a problem and a proposition is a difference in the turn of the phrase" (Topics, Bk I, 4). Thus, to the proposition: 'Man is an animal that walks on two feet", there corresponds the problem: 'Is man an animal that walks on two feet?" - basically the proposition with a change in phrasing. For Aristotle then, there is a one-to-one correlation between problems and propositions, where every proposition has its corresponding problem. 

    While this is a tidy way to understand the nature of problems, it is also an exceedingly crappy one. For one, it is entirely banal. That a problem consists of a mere 'turn of the phrase' means that a solution never gives us anything other than what was already implied in the problem; to 'solve a problem', on the Aristotelian model, means nothing other than to affirm or deny it, to nod or shake one's head in mute agreement or disagreement. But it is clear that the most interesting problems - and I want to say all truly philosophical problems - are not of this kind. The most interesting problems always demand more from their solutions than what can be already found in the problem to begin with. What does this mean?

    The realm of math provides a concrete example. While basic math problems like "1+1=?" do abide by the Aristotelian model of problem-posing ('=2'), any step in the direction of higher-order math takes us far beyond such conceptions. Consider a more general equation, like "x+y=3", where 'x' and 'y' can take on multiple/different values. Or else consider the (even more) general equation of a circle, "(x – h)^2 + (y – k)^2 = r^2", which has a huge number of solutions (every circle in Euclidean space can be represented by the equation). And this is all to say nothing about group theory and other, further mathematical generalizations.

    --

    These kinds of problems break with the Aristotelian model in two ways. First and most obviously, each problem correlates with not just one, but multiple solutions. Second and more importantly, every solution has 'more' in it than can be found in the problem itself: the problem forces one to think 'beyond' what can already be found there (which is why Kant - for those familiar with him - specified that mathematical propositions were 'synthetic', and not merely 'analytic' propositions). And of course, math is just one model on which to think about problems.

    The fields of engineering and evolution provide further examples in which solutions always 'exceed' the problems from which they are born. Thus a wind turbine, a dam, and a coal powered fuel plant can be considered 'solutions' to the problem of generating energy. Or else in the realm of biological evolution, one can speak - in the manner of Gilles Deleuze and Henri Bergson - of the 'eye as a solution to the problem of light' posed to living beings; or in the way in which cold-bloodedness and warm-bloodedness are different 'solutions' to the problem of heat-regulation in animals. One can begin to see the outlines of what might be called a 'realism of problems' or 'problematic realism', where problems themselves have ontological standing. But that's just a side-thought - for now.

    Thinking about problems in this way has a few advantages. For one, it 'dynamizes' problems, keeping them 'open' such that problems are not static artefacts to be solved once and for all, but instead force creative and ongoing engagement. The problem of energy generation remains an 'open' one, for instance. Second, it allows us to frame the nature of philosophical questions in a more interesting way. People often complain about philosophy as providing no definite answers; but such complaints are often motivated by treating the problems of philosophy in the anodyne Aristotelian manner outlined above. Problems - true problems - inspire and compel (not unlike a physical force); they take us beyond, into the new, the unexplored, the unfamiliar. And this is, at minimum, what philosophy does best.
  • Galuchat
    809
    The fields of engineering and evolution provide further examples in which solutions always 'exceed' the problems from which they are born. Thus a wind turbine, a dam, and a coal powered fuel plant can be considered 'solutions' to the problem of generating energy...
    Thinking about problems in this way has a few advantages. For one, it 'dynamizes' problems, keeping them 'open' such that problems are not static artefacts to be solved once and for all, but instead force creative and ongoing engagement.
    — StreetlightX

    So, a problem is dynamic if it has more than one solution?

    Engineering problems usually have multiple, if not many, solutions ranging from satisfactory (cost-effective) to optimal (expensive). And it is very important that these types of problems be "solved once for all" where public health and/or safety are at risk.

    I am inclined to agree that "problems themselves have an ontological standing". For example, I would consider engineering and evolutionary problems to be types of empirical problems; and logical, aesthetic, and ethical problems to be types of pure problems.

    I am also inclined to consider Science to be the appropriate tool for solving empirical problems, and Philosophy to be the appropriate tool for considering (if not solving) pure problems.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    So, a problem is dynamic if it has more than one solution?Galuchat

    Yes, but this aspect is tributary or parasitic of the more primary fact that a 'dynamic' problem is one which does not simply re-state it's solution in different terms (remember Aristotle's formulation: a problem is just a proposition phrased differently - this is the key thing to resist when thinking about problems). Only a problem which does not do this admits of multiple solutions precisely because you cannot just 'read off' the solution from the problem in different terms. Instead you have to invent, create something new. There's nothing about the need for energy generation (stated as a general problem) that dictates that a dam or a coal plant ought to be built in response. One has to bring something new to the table. That's the key. Multiple solutions are an 'effect', not a defining feature - although I was a little unclear about this, I think, in the OP.
  • frank
    14.6k
    While this is a tidy way to understand the nature of problems, it is also an exceedingly crappy oneStreetlightX

    It's a nice way to understand what a proposition is, though. Sometimes it seems that propositions are taken to be platonic objects, if not explicitly then in just the approach to them. Yes, of course John said that P, but we're going to lift P out of that context and deal with it.

    That invites an opposing approach where it seems the starting point is that there are no propositions. It's all John and the sounds he makes. Any fool who thinks there's more to this activity than sound waves and instinctual behavior is a religious fanatic.

    The forum member Pierre-Normand said something that suggested to me a synthesis of these two approaches. The answer-question dichotomy would be one way to see that synthesis. A question immediately creates a psychic void, a vacuum. The proposition as an abstraction comes before the particular proposition. That's what a question is. Questioning is an activity similar to lust (for some reason I'm sexualizing everything these days). The proposition, or answer, as an abstraction is an aspect of this lust. The particular true proposition is, well, you know.
  • tim wood
    8.8k
    Thus, to the proposition: 'Man is an animal that walks on two feet", there corresponds the problem: 'Is man an animal that walks on two feet?" - basically the proposition with a change in phrasing. For Aristotle then, there is a one-to-one correlation between problems and propositions, where every proposition has its corresponding problem.StreetlightX

    I doubt if Aristotle added the one-to-one qualification. If I had the text I wouldn't have to doubt. Can you easily reproduce it?

    Every proposition presupposes a question to which it stands as an answer. No doubt there are many, but at least one. This notion of presupposition is imo more powerful than "turn of phrase." For the rest, I agree.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    I doubt if Aristotle added the one-to-one qualification. If I had the text I wouldn't have to doubt. Can you easily reproduce it?tim wood

    The Topics can be found freely online - here is the first book which I reference explicitly in the OP: http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/topics.1.i.html

    'Stotle doesn't quite phrase it the way I do, but I don't think it's a stretch: "The difference between a problem and a proposition is a difference in the turn of the phrase .... Naturally, then, problems and propositions are equal in number: for out of every proposition you will make a problem if you change the turn of the phrase". (Bk 1, 4).

    The whole text is just easily one of the worst in the history of philosophy: "Reasoning, on the other hand, is 'dialectical', if it reasons from opinions that are generally accepted... those opinions are 'generally accepted' which are accepted by every one or by the majority or by the philosophers-i.e. by all, or by the majority, or by the most notable and illustrious of them. Again (c), reasoning is 'contentious' if it starts from opinions that seem to be generally accepted, but are not really such, or again if it merely seems to reason from opinions that are or seem to be generally accepted." :vomit:
  • tim wood
    8.8k
    Thank you x 2! Aristotle also said it is a mistake to look for more precision than the topic allows for. This is such a one. We both understand him and now 2300 years later, we understand more besides.
  • Deleteduserrc
    2.8k
    I’ve been trying to cut back on the meta shit, but oh well relapse is part of recovery.

    I agree with your op. But you’ve said it before, a bunch of times, in different places.
    Problems - true problems - inspire and compel (not unlike a physical force); they take us beyond, into the new, the unexplored, the unfamiliar. And this is, at minimum, what philosophy does best.StreetlightX

    This is the the inherent tension of deleuzian post-deluzian scholarship right? The more everything sediments the higher the risk of conceptual hagiography - radical gestures become canonized and kept safely under glass. After a while attacks on aristotle feel like highbrow versions of civil war reenactments - but now its the 1960s and its deleuze et al vs the-then french philosophical canon
  • Deleteduserrc
    2.8k
    The difference being its easier to find audiences unfamiliar with this conflict than those unfamiliar with the civil war.
  • Deleteduserrc
    2.8k
    Id kill to see a post where you skewer (some aspect of) your conceptual milieu in order to advance your own take. Its a forum so the usual scholarly caution can be safely bracketed here.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Eh, I think your own issue is that you think of me as kind of subject-supposed-to-know but I'm still working through this stuff on my own terms. That, and - I think an explicitly formulated approach to the world in terms of problematics is virtually absent anywhere outside of the Deleuzian milieu. I was honestly trying to think about where else I've encountered it, and while it's impicit in math, biology and engineering - the three examples I used in the OP - there really is a almost complete absence of philosophical resources I can draw upon. I actually really struggle to put this stuff in as clear terms as I can, without simply jargoning it up. I only encountered the Aristotelian line in the Topics a few days ago and it was like a mini-lightbulb moment for me.

    Again, it's nice that you don't 'see' it - I'm obviously doing something right - but then you think you have to do your meta thing and it just misreads everything so badly. So yeah, I can play this game too, I just find it so unnecessary and bleh.
  • Deleteduserrc
    2.8k
    Subject-supposed-to-know, for a long time, yeah. Now I think it's closer to exemplar of [a very specific niche] of University Discourse (on some threads). Equally reductive, granted, but slightly different. Fair? Maybe or maybe not.

    I mean, I think i'm 95% sure I do 'see' it, if you mean the point of the op. I wouldn't have jumped in like this if the thread were alive and kicking, I'm not trying to derail something else to do my own thing.

    I think the aristotle example is good - I guess I'm wondering like: If it was a mini-lightbulb connecting this idea to that idea, why the tenor of the op? Why start with "What is the nature of a problem?" or just: why is it written so formally, all the way through - as though to impart something understood ('it is known') to those who haven't yet understood it? It doesn't feel like you're talking about a connection you've made, or stuff you're working through. I could be forgiven, I think, for misunderstanding the essayistic status of this post, given it style. Its authoritative and declarative, the style, not tentative and probing.

    So, yeah, this is a different game than the one the OP set up (which was itself a game, just a different one) but, idk, this one seems more interesting to me. (Most threads you start are, imo, more interesting on their own terms. imo, this one isnt)
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    It doesn't feel like you're talking about a connection you've made, or stuff you're working through.csalisbury

    Good. That's the point - a well posed problem/issue shouldn't need some sort of journalistic fluff around it like [personal anecdote-serious stuff-cute story-feel good moral]. I don't care about that stuff and more importantly I don't want to have to waste time talking about that stuff. The issue should stand on it's own, be objected to/engaged with on its own terms, and the more I can make it seem like it does, the better. If it doesn't catch because I don't appeal to some human storytelling imperative then so be it, sucks for me, but man, I've put something into words that I think is coherent and helps me think things through and that's cool for me.

    By 'it' btw I meant the fact that I struggle to set out a clear narrative dealing with a philosophical problem. Like, I think you think I just bang this stuff out like it's second nature - except I don't (sorry to disappoint?). I mean, yeah, 'course you can be 'forgiven' for missing that, but people generally don't give AF enough to care - which I like.

    Also, university discourse I can deal with. I'm on an internet forum, talking smack. Hardly under any illusions of Grand Revolutionary Transference of The Real.
  • Deleteduserrc
    2.8k
    Good. That's the point - a well posed problem/issue shouldn't need some sort of journalistic fluff around it like [personal anecdote-serious stuff-cute story-feel good moral]. I don't care about that stuff and more importantly I don't want to have to waste time talking about that stuff. The issue should stand on it's own, be objected to/engaged with on its own terms, and the more I can make it seem like it does, the better. If it doesn't catch because I don't appeal to some human storytelling imperative then so be it, sucks for me, but man, I've put something into words that I think is coherent and helps me think things through and that's cool for me.

    That's all good. But remember I didn't bring this up, out of the blue, to suggest that you ought to personalize your approach. Everything I said was in response to your suggestion that I wasn't taking into consideration that you were working through this stuff yourself, as much in the muck as the next guy. You accused me of missing the personal part; now you're accusing me of asking that you make it personal....

    so: 'journalistic fluff' -its an anonymous internet forum man! That you thought of this, reading Aristotle, in relation to Deleuze - how is that 'journalistic fluff'? It's just an easy way of setting the scene. If you think posters should consider that - as you suggested - an easy way to do that would be to tell them.

    Like, I think you think I just bang this stuff out like it's second nature - except I don't (sorry to disappoint?). I mean, yeah, 'course you can be 'forgiven' for missing that, but people generally don't give AF enough to care - which I like.

    I don't think you do at all, you're talking to someone else. I'm well-aware that your posts are hand-wringed over. As a fellow hand-wringer it's very clear. But I think the tone of your post is clearly intended to suggest that kind of authority, even if unintentionally. Its manicured declarations all the way down. It's well-shorn. If you don't care at all about how your posts are received, I'm not sure why you always present them in this thoroughly 'defluffed' way. I don't believe that you don't care how people perceive your tone, at all. I think this is pure rhetorical expediency. (maybe you don't consciously think about the tone. but you expect people to react to it in a certain way. In that case, you have an implicit awareness of tone.)

    Also, university discourse I can deal with. I'm on an internet forum, talking smack. Hardly under any illusions of Grand Revolutionary Transference of The Real.

    As they say in creative writing - show, don't say.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    I didn't say I don't care about how it's received - the opposite. I want it to be received in a specific way, a way that deals with the issue at hand. Part of it btw is that I'm trying to work with the medium here. The OP is already 6 paragraphs long - about 2 longer than I'd like - so I try to cut away as much fat as possible. And the first thing to go is framing. So yeah, you got me, I care about editorial etiquette.
  • Deleteduserrc
    2.8k
    I think, though, that I did deal with the issue at hand, not editing. I'm quite sure I did. And then you directed me to your intentions and how i ought to have handled the post, based on those intentions (which were concealed because they weren't relevant.)

    the most interesting problems always demand more from their solutions than what can be already found in the problem to begin with. What does this mean? — sx

    Do you think that though? What if some kind of solution crept away from the op in some forum line-of-flight? What if you couldn't anticipate a response and bring it back, delicately? Isn't the point rather, that the responses are predetermined by the post, the answers already waiting, needing the appropriate 'no buts' to allow them to spring and bring things back?

    what a weird weird use of deleuze, right?
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Eh, your problem, not mine.
  • Deleteduserrc
    2.8k


    Eh, your problem, not mine.

    What is the nature of a problem?

    I guess, at least, I've got one. I understand the OP very well. I'm not sure how well university discourse does. Well.. books on 'problems' proliferate like platelets. I think it does understand, in some ways.

    [long anti-radical-leftist-theory-heads rant that I stand by but have deleted so I can articulate it better at another time]
  • Cuthbert
    1.1k
    Aristotle means one-to-one correspondence between 'problems' and propositions. He is defining a technical meaning of 'problem' to refer to yes / no questions.

    "The difference between a problem and a proposition is a difference in the turn of the phrase.
    For if it be put in this way, "'An animal that walks on two feet" is the definition of man, is it not?' or '"Animal" is the genus of man, is it not?' the result is a proposition: but if thus, 'Is "an animal that walks on two feet" a definition of man or no?' [or 'Is "animal" his genus or no?'] the result is a problem. Similarly too in other cases. Naturally, then, problems and propositions are equal in number: for out of every proposition you will make a problem if you change the turn of the phrase."

    The context is Aristotle's aim to "find a line of inquiry whereby we shall be able to reason from opinions that are generally accepted about every problem propounded to us, and also shall ourselves, when standing up to an argument, avoid saying anything that will obstruct us."

    He is trying to pin down the essence of logic as it applies to arguments about any subject at all, in order to avoid poor reasoning.

    Aristotle does not think that the only problems we ever consider are yes / no questions. If that was what he thought, let's stop reading him now because that would be too dumb. And Aristotle may have been many things, but dumb was not one of them.
  • fdrake
    5.9k


    It's not really the discourse of the university if it's primarily a means of engaging in a hobby is it. Unless you're gonna go to the extent that all knowledge as a social system is forceful negation of what it deems untrue as well as a logical one. I think on here knowledge isn't really stratified outside of groups of people that care about each others' ideas, and so the forceful negation/appropriation of residual desire takes the character of a clique rather than dominion of the entire site; there's no totalising element to link it back to unified suppressed mastery.

    Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy or philpapers this ain't.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    It's a nice way to understand what a proposition is, though. Sometimes it seems that propositions are taken to be platonic objects, if not explicitly then in just the approach to them. Yes, of course John said that P, but we're going to lift P out of that context and deal with it.frank

    I've been thinking about this comment a bit actually, and one of the thoughts I keep circling back to is that if the Aristotelian model of problems is a crappy way to understand problems, and if that model is indeed a nice way to understand what a proposition is - and I think it is - then thinking about language (and anything else) propositionally is just as equally crappy. This is possibly one of the reasons analytic philosophy is such a graveyard of ideas: the entire structure of 'the proposition' hinges upon an incredibly banal sense of truth which is directly parasitic upon the Aristotelian model: is the proposition true, or not? All the ridiculous analytic 'paradoxes' - paradoxes of self-reference, Moore's paradox, etc - are just false-problems created by a shitty understanding of how problems ought to operate.

    No wonder Deleuze was so scathing about treating philosophy as a matter of propositions: "This confusion reigns in logic and explains its infantile idea of philosophy. [Philosophical] concepts are measured against a grammar that replaces them with propositions extracted from the sentences in which they appear". Propositions - yuck.
  • Janus
    15.6k
    Consider a more general equation, like "x+y=3", where 'x' and 'y' can take on multiple/different values.StreetlightX

    This is more like a stipulation that determines an infinite set of propositions, than the kind of problem that can be derived by inverting a single proposition.

    So, some examples from the range of propositions would be '2+1=3', '3+0=3', '-1+4=3', '1.3 +1.7=3' and so on.

    The kinds of problems that are derived in the Aristotelian manner from those propositions are exampled by 'x+1=3', 'x+0+3' and so on.

    So, I don't see how your example is actually a counterexample to Aristotle's formulation.
  • frank
    14.6k

    What if you looked at propositions as phenomenology?

    "Heidegger struggles to free himself from traditional assumptions and our everyday vocabulary in his attempt to return to the phenomena. Among traditional philosophers he most admired Aristotle, who was, he says, "the last of the great philosophers who had eyes to see and, what is still more decisive, the energy and tenacity to continue to force inquiry back to the phenomena... and to mistrust from the ground up all wild and windy speculations, no matter how close to the heart of common sense" (BP, 232)." But even Aristotle was under the influence of Plato and so was not radical enough. Heidegger therefore proposes to start again with the understanding in the shared everyday activities in which we dwell, an understanding that he says is closest to us yet farthest away."
    --Dreyfus commentary Being in the World

    I don't think of AP as a graveyard. It's more like a straight jacket for your brain.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Ah, true. Should have used something like x+3=y. I just wanted an example to break the one-to-one correspondence, as a first step.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Merleau-Ponty is more my jam, but I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'propositions as phenomneology'- your cite doesn't really expand upon it.
  • Srap Tasmaner
    4.6k
    This is possibly one of the reasons analytic philosophy is such a graveyard of ideas: ... Propositions - yuck.StreetlightX

    Eh. The single most famous paper in the modern era of analytic philosophy, "Two Dogmas of Empiricism," is a full-out assault on the idea of "the proposition."
  • frank
    14.6k
    Merleau-Ponty is more my jam, but I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'propositions as phenomneology'- your cite doesn't really expand upon it.StreetlightX

    You're reading an article on genetics. As you read, you aren't clearly aware of sentences. You're focusing on the points being made by the authors. You certainly aren't involved in some process of proposition extraction (as if you had a psychic-turkey-baster-syringe, giant sized for pulling out the bulky genetics message).

    It's only when the article becomes problematic because it was written by fdrake and he snuck in one of his random insults, that your focus changes (sort of like the way a scene changes when you change the focus on a camera), and you become aware of words. You see them ganged together as sentences. You see the sentence structure that's characteristic of whatever language you're reading. If you dwell with this focus long enough, you will become aware of what a logician very well may mean by "proposition."

    All of the above is a proposed phenomenology. Does any part of it ring true to you?

    True. Ha!
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Ah, I see what you mean but I don't think that's it. It's not enough to look at words/sentences in that 'present-at-hand' manner to 'see' propositions. Unlike broken hammers, the idea of propositions don't simply slip into awareness at the point of puzzlement or semantic breakdown - I think this is to underestimate just how artificial propositions are, the fact that they more or less don't exist outside a highly contrived, technical literature where their properties have to be stipulated in a specific manner ('bearers of reference which are truth-apt', to give a minimal characterization). It's artifice through and through.

    The phenomenology you describe is perhaps the first step towards treating language in terms of propositions, but it remains too general to capture them in their specificity. The moral of all this being something like: fuck Frege.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Yes but you're talking about the bloke who said that to be is to be reckoned with as a value of a variable. It's hard to get more propositiony than that! Or else you have something like Ted Sider's metaphysics which tries to capture the world be means of a "complete sentence in a fundamental language", which is just the apogee of analytic proposition-madness carried to the nth degree.
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