Yes. What is Red? Where is Red? When we know Red and find Red we will have solved the Hard Problem of Consciousness, not just for Red but for all Conscious Experience. — SteveKlinko
1) I see the redness of the snooker ball.
2) I consciously see the redness of the snooker ball.
In what kind of circumstances could the truth of these two statements come apart?
If they are always true or false in the same circumstances, then what is added by talk of consciously seeing anything.
In both cases, it looks like what is being seen is an instances of a visible property and that instance, wherever it is, is no more inside my skull than the snooker ball itself is. — jkg20
I think 1 can imply the sense that the Visual Image of the snooker ball is Out There in the external world and you are really Seeing it as it is. But 2 more precisely specifies that the Visual Image is an Internal Conscious phenomenon where you are not Directly Seeing the snooker ball but are actually Seeing a Surrogate, created by your Mind, of the snooker ball. There are still many people (including the Direct Realists) that believe 1 is true. To understand 2 you have to understand that you have never Seen a snooker ball but you have only Seen your Internal Conscious Visual experience of the snooker ball. Item 2 might be redundant to you but it is important to always emphasize the Consciousness aspect when talking about these things to a more general audience. You never know who is viewing these forums. Lot's of people view but never post.1) I see the redness of the snooker ball.
2) I consciously see the redness of the snooker ball.
In what kind of circumstances could the truth of these two statements come apart?
If they are always true or false in the same circumstances, then what is added by talk of consciously seeing anything.
In both cases, it looks like what is being seen is an instances of a visible property and that instance, wherever it is, is no more inside my skull than the snooker ball itself is. — jkg20
1) I see the redness of the snooker ball.
2) I consciously see the redness of the snooker ball.
In what kind of circumstances could the truth of these two statements come apart?
If they are always true or false in the same circumstances, then what is added by talk of consciously seeing anything.
In both cases, it looks like what is being seen is an instances of a visible property and that instance, wherever it is, is no more inside my skull than the snooker ball itself is. — jkg20
Robots and animals can do 1).
Only humans can do 2). — tom
The snooker ball does not have Redness as a Property. The snooker ball reflects Light at a Wavelength of 680 nm. But the Red Light has no Redness Property. The Red Light actually does not Look like anything. The Brain converts the Red Light into the Conscious experience of Redness. Redness is a Property of a Conscious Phenomenon. Redness does not exist in the Physical Universe. Redness only exists in the Conscious Universe. It's a subtle distinction but it has vast consequences for the ultimate understanding of Consciousness. I'm not saying that you don't, but many people do not understand this.Robots and (some) animals can detect electromagnetic radiation whose wavelength is around 700 nm; only humans can see the redness of the snooker ball. — Pattern-chaser
As I reread my text, I wonder why you can't see we're in almost exact agreement over this. :wink: — Pattern-chaser
We know that the Redness of the snooker ball will ultimately produce particular Neural Activity in the Brain. The Neural Activity is what leads to the Conscious Red experience. We know this because, if these particular Neurons are stimulated in the right way by probing, then the same Conscious Red experience can be attained. Maybe not of a snooker ball but the experience will be of Redness.
I think it was the last sentence that got me off on the track I went on. It seemed like you were saying that the snooker ball actually had the Redness property itself. — SteveKlinko
The Brain converts the Red Light into the Conscious experience of Redness. — SteveKlinko
Redness does not exist in the Physical Universe. Redness only exists in the Conscious Universe — SteveKlinko
I think it was the last sentence that got me off on the track I went on. It seemed like you were saying that the snooker ball actually had the Redness property itself. — SteveKlinko
The ball is red. The redness of the ball begins a causal chain by which certain neurones fire in a human or certain circuits fire in a robot. — tom
Perhaps you need to rephrase this, as we do not see radiation, we see coloured snooker balls and the like. "Red" is a label we give to a visible features of the things we see. We were labelling things "red" long before we even had a theory that predicted electromagnetic radiation."Red" is a label that humans give to that radiation when they see it.
This confuses two things. The ball is not red; the ball reflects electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength around 700 nm. "Red" is a label that humans give to that radiation when they see it. The human eye and the robot's circuits detect electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength around 700 nm. But, later in the chain, and only in the human, this simple act of detection becomes a perception, and that somehow leads to the conscious experience of Redness. The robot does not experience the latter. — Pattern-chaser
So, red objects reflect or emit photons of predominately red energy. Humans label photons of this energy (or the black-body spectrum centred on red) as "red". — tom
Yes, and they go on to experience Redness, which I should've emphasised. :blush: Robots can't do that. Even if, one day, they become conscious - the robot version of consciousness - they won't experience Redness as humans do. Redness is a uniquely human experience. — Pattern-chaser
I suggest that physics is not a good yardstick in the consideration of qualia, and the like. Physics is about the Physical Universe, while qualia belong to the Conscious Universe. Physics cannot address qualia. — Pattern-chaser
But of course, you claim that certain objects in the physical universe, create the conscious universe, but have no clue how or why.
Physics, however, has good arguments how and why. — tom
Please state the good arguments physics has to offer concerning the Conscious Universe? — Pattern-chaser
All you have to do is rub your eyes and you can see Lights. So we know that even that very external mechanical stimulation of the Visual system can create a Visual effect. Stands to reason that more direct probing inside the Brain will produce all kinds of Auditory, Visual, and Memory experiences. I thought this was realized by Science decades ago and is pretty much common knowledge by now.We know that the Redness of the snooker ball will ultimately produce particular Neural Activity in the Brain. The Neural Activity is what leads to the Conscious Red experience. We know this because, if these particular Neurons are stimulated in the right way by probing, then the same Conscious Red experience can be attained. Maybe not of a snooker ball but the experience will be of Redness.
First, the research on visual cortical stimulation that I am aware of doesn't warrant such a claim to knowledge. For ethical reasons, the evidence base is exceedingly small, for one thing. Also, the reports of the actual subjects at most show that stimulation of the visual cortex is statistically correlated with reports of phosphenes, but even some of those reports involve the curious idea that these phosphenes - whatever they are - are colourless. If you have more recent and definitive research to back up your claim, I'd be interested if you could provide a link to it.
Secondly, you mention yourself the redness of the snooker ball as the start of a supposedly causal story in vision - the end of that causal story is that I see the redness of the snooker ball. Nothing so far said requires the existence of any other instance of redness to enter the picture. The supposed neural activity you are talking about could simply be part of what goes on in opening us up to an actual feature of the environment. — jkg20
There has been tremendous bias against the mind, and this has led to the false rejection of dualism and an unwarranted acceptance of materialism. Some have claimed that brain and mind are really identical, but this is an ad hoc explanation unsupported by any real evidence. — George Cobau
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