apologize for insulting you but it seems that you are intransigent and do not want to take into consideration psychological dispositions that 'science' cannot adequately explain with recourse to biology. This irritates me because I have friends who are transgendered and they are not defined by the biological determinants, i.e. their facticity. — Blue Lux

That is okay as long as you offer arguments and you are not hostile, I will openly answer you.

Science can adequately explain how emotions work and which area of the brain, which chemical cause sadness, depression or happiness. We are taking steps forward in understanding how the human body works. You are assuming that science has no relation what so ever to the subject at hand, that is not the case.

Let's discard biology for a second and talk about psychological sciences. Under a completely objective view, any professor will tell you that transgenderism is a mental illness.

The only definition of an illness you could be referring to is a psychiatric illness, and I recently gave you an analysis of gender based on the thought of the most important psychiatrists of all time. You reject this. — Blue Lux

I didn't, you were insulting at the time and I completely skipped over your post. I don't even know what did you wrote there, I can't answer you if I don't understand what you are talking about in the first place.

One of the psychiatrists doesn't make him or her represent all of the psychiatrists, being someone important doesn't automatically mean that his or her work is a 'truth' that we should adhere to, especially if you don't have any proof that this psychiatrist's words that you mentioned are widely accepted or not. In fact, I can't seem to find that post, unfortunately. It would be appreciated if you could quote it in your next answer.

Trans people function just fine. There is absolutely no correlation between their being transgender and frequent stress or inability to function. There is absolutely no aetiological correlation. If you say there is... You are lying. — Blue Lux

Don't assume directly that I am lying without further information, it doesn't really help your case.
Although it seems we don't really have the same definition of what delusion is, delusion is very much a mental illness. I'll quote Harry's post. You can look it up.

I don't understand this part of your post. People aren't their gender based on feeling or body, but by the meaning of sex or gender itself? People are their sex or gender based on their physical and behavioral features. People are also delusional based on the criteria set forth by the medical community itself. People can be deluded about many things, and they don't necessarily have to have a mental condition to delude themselves. Just look at the religious folk.

People who we label as transgender don't just want to act like the opposite sex, they want to BE the opposite sex, which is why they go through sexual reassignment surgery. If it was only about gender, then they would be happy as just dressing like the opposite sex. Shouldn't we be making a distinction then, between transGENDERS and tranSEXUALS? - and is there really such thing as a transsexual when they never fully become the opposite sex - just an fake version of the opposite sex?

Do people that just dress like the opposite sex still claim that they are the opposite sex internally, or do they do it just to feel more comfortable with themselves (as a result of how they were raised and the norms that were established for them at an early age - like their parents treating them as the opposite sex)

Wanting to act like the opposite sex just reinforces the gender dichotomy - as you aren't really trying to break down the barriers between sexes - you want to BE the opposite sex.


Somatic type: delusions that the person has some physical defect or general medical condition (like believing that your body is the wrong sex)

The following can indicate a delusion:

The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force, even when evidence suggests the contradictory.

That idea appears to have an undue influence on the patient's life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.

Despite his/her profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.

The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.

There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him/her, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.

An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility. They will not accept any other opinions.

The belief is, at the least, unlikely, and out of keeping with the patient's social, cultural, and religious background.

The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche.

The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in light of the delusional beliefs.

Individuals who know the patient observe that the belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien.


Additional features of delusional disorder include the following:
It is a primary disorder.

It is a stable disorder characterized by the presence of delusions to which the patient clings with extraordinary tenacity.

The illness is chronic and frequently lifelong.

The delusions are logically constructed and internally consistent.

The delusions do not interfere with general logical reasoning (although within the delusional system the logic is perverted) and there is usually no general disturbance of behavior. If disturbed behavior does occur, it is directly related to the delusional beliefs.

The individual experiences a heightened sense of self-reference. Events which, to others, are nonsignificant are of enormous significance to him or her, and the atmosphere surrounding the delusions is highly charged.
— Wikipedia

Transgenders exhibit most, if not all, of these symptoms - especially being oversensitive about their belief and accepting it unquestioningly - similar to the religious.

Any attempt to contradict the belief is met with hostility. Society has even adopted this symptom - just look at the responses to my posts on this forum. Again - no different than the religious.

In diagnosing their condition correctly, we aren't being disrespectful to anyone, just like we aren't being disrespectful when we diagnose an anorexic correctly. We are attempting to help the patient instead of hurting them more by reinforcing their delusion to the point where the pay a doctor handsomely to cut them up. People that don't get this are inconsistent are actually the haters they label others to be. — Harry Hindu

The personality is fluid. It contains all sorts of potentialities. Consciousness is potentiality. Consciousness consists of it's relation to its potentialities. A consciousness and furthermore a personality is not defined by the expressed. — Blue Lux

We can agree on this at least, personality is molded through life experiences, it only showcases that these people went through something that caused them to develop such a delusion as to think, they are 'beyond' reality. Either through mob mentality or just some life experiences, its very much a delusion.
I'll quote Harry again since he briefly mentioned it in of his posts.

One could say that transgenders are delusional and western society has adopted the delusion and propagated it into a mass delusion to the point of verbally assaulting and labeling those that don't participate in the delusion, all while arguing that we shouldn't put labels on people. :brow: Go figure. :roll: — Harry Hindu

In relation to gender, this is the same. When you close your eyes you realize that everything you claim to be is contingent on what you think defines you, in relation to others. But the single fact is that, aside from all of this, you are something greater and that you yourself contain every identifyable condition or potentiality, and with this one can identify with their personality and understand who they are themselves, aside from the seemingly contingent nature of understanding oneself. In realizing ones absolute freedom from concepts one can be whatever the feel to be, and they can act and behave and conduct themselves in whatever manner comes about, and if this manner becomes defined by others, so be it, it is authentic. — Blue Lux

What I think defines me?

It's like trying to argue that an apple is a pineapple when everyone think otherwise and they have proof that it is not in fact a pineapple. Being rebel is good sometimes but it doesn't paint a good image of you when you are denying reality, we aren't transcending reality with some psychic powers yet I believe,
The fact is, your personality doesn't rely on basic biological truths unlike gender and sex. You yourself admitted that gender relies on sex.

You are getting a bit far, there. Humans all have the potential to do great things, of course, so? Your point? 'Accepting' oneself and becoming a transgender person is not an achievement. It's just a delusion. It's twisting the words, you are not accepting yourself, you are insecure about your gender, you are insecure in your body and you try to find something that makes you feel better, of course, then everyone needs to follow along with your twisted thinking.

they can act and behave and conduct themselves in whatever manner comes about, and if this manner becomes defined by others, so be it, it is authentic. — Blue Lux

So... You are admitting they are delusional, that what they do is not authentic because it is not acknowledged by others, those others who rely on facts, reality and not feelings.
I am not saying, they shouldn't, they can do whatever they want with their bodies. What they can't do, is impose on others to follow along with their delusions.

I am gay. In being gay I have been told that 'my condition,' as if who I am is some sort of definable, psychiatric quality that needs to be tested in a lab for the purpose of intrusive pontification, makes me more susceptible to mental illness. This relates to gender very well, as it is completely non-sequitur. It is a metaphor. — Blue Lux

You being gay is not a mental illness, throw that notion away, that's people being misinformed, it's in fact perfectly natural. Homosexuality is observed in other animals like birds, lions, and even foxes. It's not exactly a common thing in species, it leads to a dead-end in a lineage but it doesn't really matter all that much when we have seven billion people on Earth.

Homosexuality is explained scientifically as to why it happens, there is several studies about it on the internet, its really interesting look it up. Homosexuality is not bad. If lesbians or gays somewhere can find happiness, sure. Who am I to deny them that? They aren't forcing anyone to do anything, they are just a normal couple and they are completely accepting of their original gender, I can call a gay couple 'he' and I wouldn't expect any lash out or hostility unlike transgenders. I have a gay friend and he is really nice, he got a pretty handsome boyfriend and tell you what, he has the same opinions as me on transgenderism.

You are the one that is insulting, by the way.

And though it will take me some time to completely destroy your argument. I will do it to you and Harry for the sake of humanism.

As well, you have absolutely mutated my words into an abject interpretation, devoid of all the original epistemic foundations.

This is the worst fallacy in a debate.

Humanism

an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems. (Google definition)

The first objection to a Humanism is that it is blindly supportive of absolute freedom and autonomy and it disregards the unintegrated or conditioned aspects of human existence.
Ergo we have where I stand. I stand in support of Humanism as opposed to fatalism, which is what these two @Terran Imperium@Harry Hindu espouse ever so eloquently... with subtle subterfuge...

Under a completely objective view, any professor will tell you that transgenderism is a mental illness — Terran Imperium

This is the first absolutely baseless claim we have. As I have a piece of paper in the other room from a mental health facility that has the option of 'transgender' marked under gender... This assertion of yours is absolutely false.
Contrary to what you believe, according to whatever conscious or unconscious ideology you yourself have been conditioned or, more likely, coerced into adopting; being transgender is a legitimate gender identity.
This is furthermore supported by hundreds of colleges and just about every mental health hospital or out-patient clinic you can visit in the whole United States. The reason I know this is because I have personally seen this in about 15 different states.

Science can adequately explain how emotions work and which area of the brain, which chemical cause sadness, depression or happiness. We are taking steps forward in understanding how the human body works. You are assuming that science has no relation what so ever to the subject at hand, that is not the case. — Terran Imperium

Another completely baseless claim...
Science cannot adequately explain how emotions work. You honestly think an anti-depressant fixes the emotions associated with depression? Do you honestly think that science has the upper hand over emotions and consciousness? Are you kidding me? We have absolutely no idea how consciousness works. All we have are correlations about different neurological mechanisms. What is DMT? Explain to me what DMT does to a person's experience in terms of the chemical itself? It is merely a pseudoneurotransmitter altering perception? It is endogenous! Are you going to tell me that neurotransmitters can explain conscious experience? This is a fantasy! Throw someone in a dark room and give them opium and record their thoughts. Dopamine may be associated with pleasure but it is not itself pleasure. Have you ever heard of what it takes to have an orgasm? That is, the psychological investigation of it, neuropsychology states that a very important piece of having a fulfilling orgasm relates to the CONSCIOUS FIXATION and interest in that sexual state of affairs. There is a reason one cannot just take heroin and feel good. There is a reason one cannot just rub their penis and ejaculate. There is a reason a mother loves her children. And it is not because of some chemical! This is, again, fatalism at its finest; the conception that humans are fundamentally unfree and abject machines incapable of making any decisions outside of that which amounts to some sort of pleasure. Consciousness is not some hedonistic object that becomes affected and then is oriented toward these chemicals that cause pleasure. Ever heard of human sacrifice? Ever heard of someone dying for another? And what of art? What of these experiences and expressions of existence that are incoherently complex and absolutely incapable of being understood in terms of brain chemistry?
The conclusion is that neurology is not the edifice of truth and human existence and personality is not this survival of the fittest. Darwin himself said humans should never live according to survival of the fittest, and that it is essentially abject and nihilistic.

Both of these people have arguments that support, inevitably, nihilism.

One of the psychiatrists doesn't make him or her represent all of the psychiatrists, being someone important doesn't automatically mean that his or her work is a 'truth' that we should adhere to, especially if I don't have any proof that this psychiatrist's words that you mentioned are widely accepted or not — Terran Imperium

Ummm. And you want to be a doctor? Freud was a NEUROLOGIST. Jung was a psychiatrist and founded analytical psychology! He was one of the most important psychiatrists to ever live and if it was not for his and Freud's research then psychiatry would be impoverished today, if not non-existent!

@Harry Hindu

People are their sex or gender based on their physical and behavioral features. — Harry Hindu

This is simply wrong. The foundation of gender relates to the identification of what it means to have a penis and what it means to have a vagina... THE IDENTIFICATION of it NOT the fact of it as if the body has a mind of its own and enslaves you to its own mechanism giving you the absolute illusion that you are controlling anything. Please tell me how you would explain the body controlling the situation of a person randomly committing suicide? Please tell me how the body, chemically could determine whether or not a person will commit suicide. This is absolutely impossible. Emotions are not neurons. If you think so, then you clearly have no emotions.

People who we label as transgender don't just want to act like the opposite sex, they want to BE the opposite sex, which is why they go through sexual reassignment surgery. I — Harry Hindu

Wrong.

People who ARE transgender do not want to be the opposite sex. They are not what they have been led to by their facticity to believe that they are, and they have realized by whatever means that their personality, and their identification of what it means to have a penis or a vagina does not conform with what they want for themselves, namely in the manifestation of the libido in the sexual organs. They realize that what they want in life and what they want to be a part of, in terms of a sexual relationship, does not involve the sexual organs they did not choose to have in the first place.

just an fake version of the opposite sex? — Harry Hindu

Another absolute mutation based on absolutely no a posteriori methodology or epistemological basis. And question this so I can tell you, please.

(as a result of how they were raised and the norms that were established for them at an early age - like their parents treating them as the opposite sex) — Harry Hindu

Really? You think someone would just randomly choose to be transgender, and to have to live in a world with people like you?

Wanting to act like the opposite sex just reinforces the gender dichotomy - as you aren't really trying to break down the barriers between sexes - you want to BE the opposite sex. — Harry Hindu

There is no gender dichotomy. Have you even ever had passionate sex? Or did you just use the woman as a passive object for your own pleasure?
It isn't about wanting to be another sex. You are misguided. It is that one is absolutely against being what they are imprisoned within, and thus they are the Other... Simone De Beauvoir's other.

delusions that the person has some physical defect or general medical condition (like believing that your body is the wrong sex)

The following can indicate a delusion:

The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force, even when evidence suggests the contradictory.

That idea appears to have an undue influence on the patient's life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.

Despite his/her profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.

The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.

There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him/her, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.

An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility. They will not accept any other opinions.

The belief is, at the least, unlikely, and out of keeping with the patient's social, cultural, and religious background.

The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of their psyche.

The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in light of the delusional beliefs.

Individuals who know the patient observe that the belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien.


Additional features of delusional disorder include the following:
It is a primary disorder.

It is a stable disorder characterized by the presence of delusions to which the patient clings with extraordinary tenacity.

The illness is chronic and frequently lifelong.

The delusions are logically constructed and internally consistent.

The delusions do not interfere with general logical reasoning (although within the delusional system the logic is perverted) and there is usually no general disturbance of behavior. If disturbed behavior does occur, it is directly related to the delusional beliefs.

The individual experiences a heightened sense of self-reference. Events which, to others, are nonsignificant are of enormous significance to him or her, and the atmosphere surrounding the delusions is highly charged. — Harry Hindu

1. There is no evidence that their personality is not what they say they are. "A fantasy is a fact: it is so much a fact that because of one man's fantasy another man may lose his life. It is again not a tangible object, but it is a fact." Carl Jung
Because some sort of correlation can be made between biology, reproduction and the function of the sex organs does not mean that how people identify within themselves regarding who they are by understanding who they are not and what they are not is in any way degraded. Just as the function of the sex organs does not define sexuality, the biological disposition of sex organs does not determine gender. Gender is something that a person becomes. "One is not born but becomes woman." Simone De Beauvoir.

2. With regard to this. I can say anything is a delusion. The fact that I am happy. If I say "I am happy." And then someone comes along and says, no you are not, you look sad. And let's say that I am crying tears of joy, another person may ask, "What is wrong?"
One cannot say what is a delusion for another person unless it meets certain psychiatric criteria, namely believing that people are out to kill you, that everyone is lying to you, that the world is fake, that the cameras are watching you, that the medicine you are given is controlling your mind, that you have some type of electronic device in your head. Comparing a trans person to a paranoid schizophrenic... You are the one who needs to be labotomized. I know trans people and they are not delusional people. They are simply different, atop different psychological premises, in a different paradigm of identification.

3. All of these displays of delusion absolutely do not apply to trans people. You are an idiot if you think they do, and this clearly represents your lack of insight into the subject altogether, which honestly makes me question your state of mind... You are the delusional one.
Now how do you feel? How would you feel if someone constantly called you delusional and then brought up all these reasons as to why you are delusional? They did the same thing to gay people. I have had the same thing done to me. And what? All of it was complete dogsh+t.

I'm confused by all of this.

There are people with particular physiologies.

There are people who are comfortable with their physiologies, and people who are not, who authentically believe that they would be more comfortable with a different physiology (and this is often borne out).

There are cultural associations to certain physiologies - types of dress, behavioural expectations, manners of speech, jobs, etc.

There are people who are comfortable with these associations and conform to them, people are identify with against the common associations, and people who believe the associations are arbitrary.

What's the normative claim here? How do we get to 'right' and 'wrong' and 'delusion'?

The truth was never guaranteed to be consoling to our feelings. The truth is the truth and how we feel about it is another matter entirely. — Harry Hindu

You can not separate the truth from the feelings on this topic. It is not about mathematical proof. Feelings, magnified by mass-media, can help to promote political decisions, and further to mobilize
sufficient expertise in different fields to support and fabricate a desirable "truth".

We are attempting to help the patient instead of hurting them more by reinforcing their delusion to the point where the pay a doctor handsomely to cut them up. — Harry Hindu

That's why you get a good doctor and follow the healthy, designated path of transition.

it only showcases that these people went through something that caused them to develop such a delusion as to think, they are 'beyond' reality. Either through mob mentality or just some life experiences, its very much a delusion. — Terran Imperium

ROFL, you really think you are onto something don't you?
You are absolutely wrong. Why don't you go out and ask a trans person?
TRANSPHOBIA!
You are assuming these people are idiots who were coerced into believing that they were not a man or not a woman? You honestly think something could make someone believe that other than that person themselves introspecting and identifying their own psychical disposition, in terms of their possibilities and what they want to become and be a part of, and what forms of intimacy they feel would be most fulfilling? You honestly think a transgender EXPRESSING themselves is really them hypnotized by some prior experience or upbringing? WAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. All you have are assumptions and abject idle talk. This is getting to be VERY revealing of your own personality. God knows what your sex life consists of!

@Harry Hindu

I wanted to offer a better answer than my last one and I finally found the words.
This is an argument concerning language and since language is a human invention declaring that a particular term means this or that doesn't bear the same weight as declaring that gravity is stronger on Jupiter than it is on Earth. This is a matter of physics. We didn't invent gravity, we merely observe and study it. I hope you see my point here as this applies to both gender and sex.

This is the first absolutely baseless claim we have. As I have a piece of paper in the other room from a mental health facility that has the option of 'transgender' marked under gender... This assertion of yours is absolutely false.
Contrary to what you believe, according to whatever conscious or unconscious ideology you yourself have been conditioned or, more likely, coerced into adopting; being transgender is a legitimate gender identity.
This is furthermore supported by hundreds of colleges and just about every mental health hospital or out-patient clinic you can visit in the whole United States. The reason I know this is because I have personally seen this in about 15 different states. — Blue Lux

Show us that piece of paper as apparently it contains the absolute truth and we plebians should bow down to it...

Another completely baseless claim... — Blue Lux

You can look it up, or is it too hard for you? I thought everyone was taught this at school.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbic_system

And yes, pleasure is a component of reward, but not all rewards are pleasurable. Stimuli that are naturally pleasurable, and therefore attractive, are known as intrinsic rewards, whereas stimuli that are attractive and motivate approach behavior but are not inherently pleasurable, are termed extrinsic rewards. Dopamine is very much a major part of the pleasure, if not a dominant one. Please, if you skipped over your biology classes don't go arguing with people about it.

Science cannot adequately explain how emotions work. You honestly think an anti-depressant fixes the emotions associated with depression? Do you honestly think that science has the upper hand over emotions and consciousness? Are you kidding me? — Blue Lux

Did I say that? Don't try to put words into my mouth please and you are getting overly emotional here. You completely went off-topic there, its just giving me a headache and so I skipped over it.

Ummm. And you want to be a doctor? Freud was a NEUROLOGIST. Jung was a psychiatrist and founded analytical psychology! He was one of the most important psychiatrists to ever live and if it was not for his and Freud's research then psychiatry would be impoverished today, if not non-existent! — Blue Lux

Several hundred years ago, people believed that Classical (Newtonian) Mechanics explained the whole universe. Then it was discovered that really massive objects or really fast objects or really small objects obeyed their own laws. We didn't throw out all of Newtonian Physics. But we did make those rules more accurate. Just because someone is popular doesn't make them right about absolutely everything.

ROFL, you really think you are onto something don't you?
You are absolutely wrong. Why don't you go out and ask a trans person?
TRANSPHOBIA!
You are assuming these people are idiots who were coerced into believing that they were not a man or not a woman? You honestly think something could make someone believe that other than that person themselves introspecting and identifying their own psychical disposition, in terms of their possibilities and what they want to become and be a part of, and what forms of intimacy they feel would be most fulfilling? You honestly think a transgender EXPRESSING themselves is really them hypnotized by some prior experience or upbringing? WAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. All you have are assumptions and abject idle talk. This is getting to be VERY revealing of your own personality. God knows what your sex life consists of! — Blue Lux

Okay... I think you should take your leave off this discussion. You aren't capable of being civil in a debate, I'm really regretting my decision of answering you in the first place. Whenever or not, you are being polite, I will ignore you from now on. It was a mistake as it seems the 'civilness' you showcased earlier was only enmity and scorn hidden under the veil.

My sexual life is perfectly fine, thank you. I am a virgin and I won't be anymore after marriage. Don't go making assumptions on my personal life.

What I think defines me?

It's like trying to argue that an apple is a pineapple when everyone think otherwise and they have proof that it is not in fact a pineapple. Being rebel is good sometimes but it doesn't paint a good image of you when you are denying reality, we aren't transcending reality with some psychic powers yet I believe,
The fact is, your personality doesn't rely on basic biological truths unlike gender and sex. You yourself admitted that gender relies on sex. — Terran Imperium

Yes, what you think, you become (Buddha)

Consciousness is not a thing like a pineapple is. This is a false comparison and anything derived from it is fundamentally baseless and at best an impoverished metaphor.

The psyche is the origin of gender! In terms of Jung, if the anima and animus archetypes of the unconscious remain undifferentiated, or if they become differentiated in a way that is unconventional or unique, then a person may be a homosexual or, perhaps, transgendered. It all has to do with identifications made at a very young age in relation to not only the parents, which are extraordinarily significant with regard to the emotional, psychological development of the child; but also in relation to oneself and what one sees of themself in the mirror, to reference Jacques Lacan's Mirror Phase, the point in which the child will recognize themself in the mirror and realize that they are an objective totality, limited and are not completely defined by what they themselves operate and feel within--and the mirror is the mother in a sense, for the child realizes that they themselves are something separate, yet still very attached to the mother not in a physiological way but in a psychological way, which is just as significant. The child did not always realize he was something to be defined. The child was not always this. And although people conclude that the child's perspective is flawed and absent of rationality, it substantiates the idea that one is not born to be and experience that of being a certain gender and thus immediately comply with a gender a priori. This is absolutely ridiculous. One becomes a gender based on their identifications, true or false a posteriori.

If you have never had sex... What gives you any right to say ANYTHING about intimate relationships, identity and gender in relation to complementarity and emotional relationality? Furthermore, what makes you think that you are justified in making ANY assertion about the authenticity of others' lives?

Oh... Because you are a religious dogmatist yourself.
Oh... Well at least that elephant in the room is no longer a hallucination, although the noematic content of a hallucination is indistinguishable from that of a 'real' perception...

Sorry if you had to read the above... I have a particular nerve for those who oppose LGBT.

Anyway.

Hmmm. It is not that I

deny

the existence of a 'permanent' subject of consciousness. It is that it seems only a presupposition.

Yes, consciousness is a sort of vector, but it is not linear. It is the pure apprehension of possibility.

I wanted to offer a better answer than my last one and I finally found the words.
This is an argument concerning language and since language is a human invention declaring that a particular term means this or that doesn't bear the same weight as declaring that gravity is stronger on Jupiter than it is on Earth. This is a matter of physics. We didn't invent gravity, we merely observe and study it. I hope you see my point here as this applies to both gender and sex. — Terran Imperium

I do because my argument is coming from exactly that sort of position. No-one "invented" the meaning of belonging to a gender or sex anymore than we did any other thing, logical truth or meaning we might peak about. Sex and gender are a matter of... the significance of sex and gender themselves.

The argument was never about how we use language. It was about concepts, meanings and truth with respect to sed and gender.

Just like gravity is a matter of gravity itself (not physics, as relationships between thing physics can change).

Sex or gender involves talking about that specific truth in reference to a person. So when we consider whether someone has a sex or a gender, we are not asking a question about their body at all. Rather, we are asking what significance do they have in terms the sex and gender categories which are expressed regardless of whether someone agrees with them or not.

Simply looking at the body won't help us because that only gives us the meaning of a body. It doesn't give any definition of how the body belongs (if it does at all) to a sex or gender category. We need to know the sex or gender category expressed by the person question, if we are to now their sex or gender.

Science does not produce "Truth." It produces predictive value through repeatable experiments. That's the point. Anyone can test your claims and if you did the experiment wrong, they will demonstrate it under carefully controlled conditions which minimize people's personal biases. — Terran Imperium

Science does produce truth - when done correctly and without external influences like we had from religion in the 15th and 16th centuries, and like we have today when it comes to this particular issue. It really is a shame to see the best method at getting at truth being used for political purposes, or influenced by these inconsistent ideologies to come to inconsistent conclusions.

Again, (and I'll keep pointing out these facts as they are continually being ignored by the "other" side (and I put "other" in quotes because they still haven't made their position clear about what "gender" even is :gasp: )) men have been sporting long hair and wearing make-up for thousands of years. In some cultures, women shave their legs and armpits while in others they don't. The behaviors expected from each sex are arbitrary. There is no such thing as an objective, transcendental sexual disposition. It is purely biological - natural (as is everything, but that is a topic for another discussion). Any feeling of being the opposite sex is the result of either some genetic and/or developmental cause.

They want to keep calling people, "bigots", "hateful", etc. while ignoring the fact that these acts are the very definition of being hateful and unreasonable. They are ad hominem attacks and the result of intellectual laziness and/or dishonesty. I have pointed out their hypocrisy in their claims that we should be sensitive to feelings. When it comes to the feelings the religious people have about their (mass) delusional beliefs, and the offense the believers take when their belief is questioned, their feelings don't count somehow - as if believers are less human and don't deserve equal treatment when it comes to hurting people's feelings by telling them the truth they don't want to hear. This hypocrisy just proves that it isn't about hurting feelings.

And it shouldn't ever be when trying to get at truth. The truth isn't dictated by our feelings - which is just another contradiction on their part. If truth were dictated by feelings, then all the various gods from each religion must exist.

This is how mass delusion works at propagating itself and rooting itself into a culture - by labeling non-believers essentially as heretics and outcasts. This is how religion spread and entrenched itself in various ways in different cultures.

They want to ignore the double-standard in how we treat anorexic and schizophrenics, and those that believe that they are Jesus or King Elizabeth, and how it isn't disrespectful to correctly diagnose those conditions, but somehow it is when it comes to believing your the opposite sex. It is compassionate to correctly diagnose a medical condition so that you can actually use a treatment that works for the benefit of all, and it is callous to use someone's medical condition to further your own extreme
"progressive" <- NOT (another topic for another thread) agenda and even worse to hijack science (which has improved our lives more than any other method of seeking knowledge when done correctly) for your own ends.

@TheWillowOfDarkness

From this discussion

The problem with defining attitudes as bigotry in a debate where the propositions are related to what is real, is that it begs the question. Bigotry, according to my dictionary, is when "a person has strong, unreasonable beliefs and does not like other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life". To accuse others of bigotry you would have to have already established what qualifies as reasonable (for a belief), and which beliefs are 'strong' (which I take to mean outside of the normal mileau). Yet both these measures are exactly what the debate is trying to establish.

It's this kind of approach which promotes the alt-right's sense of 'righteous indignation' which then fuels proper, well-established bigotry. The sense that any discussion about these issues is a foregone conclusion, that you're not even allowed in unless you tow the party line.

You say "Discrimination against and rejection of trans people at the deepest conceptual level" basically you're saying that the concept cannot be disputed without bigotry.

This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read.

So basically, you met one transgender you didn't like, and decided to make a thread about all transsexuals are delusional.

Why don't you A. Tell us what you didn't like about that particular transgender person, and B tell us this supposed research you did and why your research made you come to the conclusion they were delusional.

This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read. — trixie

A good way, to start.

So basically, you met one transgender you didn't like, and decided to make a thread about all transsexuals are delusional. — trixie

Correction, I met several transgenders that didn't like me, I wasn't hostile in any case. You will know my stance if you read the thread.

Why don't you A. Tell us what you didn't like about that particular transgender person, and B tell us this supposed research you did and why your research made you come to the conclusion they were delusional. — trixie

The thing is, I'm not going to repeat myself each time someone joins the conversation, you can read this 6-pages long thread which is not that long and then contributes to the discussion, if you aren't bothering to even do that then please skip this thread altogether.

I won't be responding to any more of your or Pattern-chaser's post. You are both unreasonable and have a problem with constantly committing ad hominem attacks. You aren't worth my time. — Harry Hindu

If you post hate-speech, expect appropriate responses. I have treated you with respect and courtesy, although I have agreed with little that you have posted. You, on the other hand, have posted stuff that is hateful and intolerant.