I can see no logical connection between lacking a belief in God and believing that everything can be understood. I know know-it-all theists and mystical, I-know-nothing atheists, as well as know-it-all atheists and mystical, I-know-nothing theists. The two dimensions are orthogonal.The atheist tends to believe that all reality can be brought into human understand, — Metaphysician Undercover
OK, then let's use a version of Socrates' famous dictum. The humble theist says 'the only thing I know about God is that I know nothing else about God'. It is, in my experience, a rare theist that exhibits that humility. It seems that Kant may have been one, and some mystics.To say "God is unintelligible to the human intellect" is to say something meaningful about God. — Metaphysician Undercover
I can see no logical connection between lacking a belief in God and believing that everything can be understood. I know know-it-all theists and mystical, I-know-nothing atheists, as well as know-it-all atheists and mystical, I-know-nothing theists. The two dimensions are orthogonal.
At best there could be a correlation but I don't even see any sign of that. Do you have any evidence for this claim other than a throwaway line here or there from a celebrity atheist? — andrewk
This is contradictory. To say "God is unintelligible to the human intellect" is to say something meaningful about God. — Metaphysician Undercover
Yes that is approximately my position, although (1) I would replace 'claiming' by 'speculating' and (2) it would be overly simplistic to describe me as an atheist tout court. But I do know people who strongly self-identify as atheists that, like me, expect reality is ultimately unintelligible to humans or to any finite being.The atheist however, is justified in claiming that unintelligibility is a feature of reality itself, that there are aspects of reality which are purely random or some such thing, which by their very nature are impossible to be understood — Metaphysician Undercover
Yes that is approximately my position, although (1) I would replace 'claiming' by 'speculating' and (2) it would be overly simplistic to describe me as an atheist tout court. But I do know people who strongly self-identify as atheists that, like me, expect reality is ultimately unintelligible to humans or to any finite being.
Perhaps we are not in disagreement then. — andrewk
I think it would be a mistake to claim to know that things are inherently unintelligible, because it is hard to see how one could obtain sufficient confidence in that opinion to call it knowledge. On the other hand I find it entirely reasonable to hold an opinion that things are inherently unintelligible. I would definitely not call an opinion knowledge, or even a claim.we claim to know that such and such aspects of reality are inherently unintelligible
'If complexity requires a designer, who designed the designer?' — EnPassant
I think it would be a mistake to claim to know that things are inherently unintelligible, because it is hard to see how one could obtain sufficient confidence in that opinion to call it knowledge. On the other hand I find it entirely reasonable to hold an opinion that things are inherently unintelligible. I would definitely not call an opinion knowledge, or even a claim. — andrewk
By the way, the first place I came across a suggestion that the universe was unintelligible was in Stella Gibbon' book "Cold Comfort Farm", in which Flora, the protagonist, reads a book by the Abbé Fausse-Maigre - a RC priest - which is described as proclaiming the fundamental unintelligibility of the world. Suggestions of unintelligibility are not particularly associated with atheists. — andrewk
As Popper showed us, this is how science in particular, and almost all knowledge, works. We can prove almost nothing true, but we can falsify it. We act as if the theories that are useful and have survived many attempts at falsification are true, and use them to cross roads, send rockets to Mars and cure plague. All while we know that they could be falsified one day.I can see how, for pragmatic reasons, one might proceed from such a premise, a proposition which could never be proven true, but could in principle be proven false. But any intent, other than the intent to prove that premise false, would be misguided. Conclusions derived from this premise would be very unsound, and therefore misleading. — Metaphysician Undercover
Maybe to Aquinas, but he is only one person writing in theology. To say that the universe is intelligible because it is intelligible only to God renders the word useless because the Christian definition of God includes that he knows everything, which entails that She knows the reason for everything, so it is by definition intelligible to Her. That definition renders a useful word useless and it would take a great deal of evidence to back up a claim that it is the standard use of 'intelligible' in theology.The point being that "unintelligible" means something different in theology than what it means to the atheist. — Metaphysician Undercover
As Popper showed us, this is how science in particular, and almost all knowledge, works. We can prove almost nothing true, but we can falsify it. We act as if the theories that are useful and have survived many attempts at falsification are true, and use them to cross roads, send rockets to Mars and cure plague. All while we know that they could be falsified one day. — andrewk
To say that the universe is intelligible because it is intelligible only to God renders the word useless because the Christian definition of God includes that he knows everything, which entails that She knows the reason for everything, so it is by definition intelligible to Her. That definition renders a useful word useless and it would take a great deal of evidence to back up a claim that it is the standard use of 'intelligible' in theology. — andrewk
In short, to say that something is intelligible if it is intelligible to God is to say nothing at all. — andrewk
Yes, I agree. That is why I do not try to falsify opinions that seem to work well for me. I am open to others' suggestions when they think they have found a falsification, and sometimes they convince me and I change the opinion. But I don't personally set out to try to falsify it.Right, so if your object, or intent, in relation to a particular idea (that something is inherently unintelligible) is to falsify this idea, then doesn't it seem contradictory, or at least hypocritical to adopt this idea as an opinion? To hold as an opinion implies that you believe the idea. To work towards falsifying it implies that you do not believe it, and are skeptical. If you hold it as an opinion you will not be skeptical of it, and you will not work toward falsifying it. — Metaphysician Undercover
If there is nothing that is 'unintelligible' then the word has no use, because it cannot apply to anything. In everyday life the word 'intelligible' is useful because some things are and some are not, when we take it to mean 'capable of being understood by an intelligent human'. What would be the point of changing the meaning of the word to something that is different from how ordinary people use it, AND has no application?to say that the universe is intelligible to God does not render the word useless, it just denies that there is anything which is truly unintelligible, in an absolute sense. — Metaphysician Undercover
It is my opinion that there is good reason to believe that the world is unintelligible to all finite intellects. And in the usual way 'intelligible' is used, that is the same as saying there's good reason to believe the world is unintelligible tout court.Therefore there is no reason to believe that anything is unintelligible to all intellects. — Metaphysician Undercover
If there is nothing that is 'unintelligible' then the word has no use, because it cannot apply to anything. In everyday life the word 'intelligible' is useful because some things are and some are not, when we take it to mean 'capable of being understood by an intelligent human'. What would be the point of changing the meaning of the word to something that is different from how ordinary people use it, AND has no application? — andrewk
It is my opinion that there is good reason to believe that the world is unintelligible to all finite intellects. And in the usual way 'intelligible' is used, that is the same as saying there's good reason to believe the world is unintelligible tout court. — andrewk
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